We now reconvene on our agenda, and we move to item 5, which is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport on digital innovation—responding to the Brown review. And I call on the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters. 

Thank you very much. Just over a year ago, Professor Phil Brown published his final report into the impact of digital innovation on the economy and the future of work in Wales. Professor Brown spoke of Wales facing a race against time, with the pace and scale of digital innovation having the potential to overtake our ability as a nation to respond.

The global pandemic has brought the challenges of the Brown review to the fore, with digital now integral to many of our lives. The stark reality is that the next phase of our industrial transformation will take place whether we embrace it or not. It is against this backdrop that I want to address Members today.

Digital innovation has become a powerful and disruptive force, and one that cannot be ignored. It's important that we do not lose sight of this as we look beyond the pandemic. 

The Royal Society of Arts has warned that, since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, the equivalent of five years' worth of automation and digitalisation has taken place, with jobs in hospitality, retail and manufacturing being some of the hardest hit. They argue that the response to the virus is potentially giving false hope to many workers in these industries without a long-term future in the age of automation.

The world of work is undoubtedly changing. More people are working remotely, and we want to see that continue as the norm beyond the crisis. The way services work, and how tasks are performed, are also being redesigned as digital transformation and automation take place. It's not just a case of what we do, but how we do it that is transforming. The pandemic has forced us to rapidly adapt at an individual level, with many businesses also shifting to new delivery models as customer habits and expectations have changed.

Despite the scale of the changes, we should recognise the positive role digital innovation has played, and will continue to play, in modern society. There are some real benefits in releasing people from mundane tasks, creating new innovations and supporting higher-skilled jobs of the future. We need only to look to Caerphilly, where parents looking for immediate support from the council for free school meals no longer have to wait five agonising days for a decision, but can now enrol immediately. Robotic process automation, embraced by the council, and developed in partnership with Codebase 8 Ltd, a small digital business in Llanelli, has taken away the paperwork, improving the service for the citizen, and freeing up staff from repetitive tasks to help with other urgent work.

But best practice is often a poor traveller. It's for this reason we've established the Centre for Digital Public Services in Ebbw Vale, who are creating a hub of expertise. They are already sharing best practice in using digital approaches to improve public service delivery, and, crucially, offering practical help and training to design services based on the needs of the user. The first of their digital transformation squads are currently working with three local councils to understand from the users of adult social services how they can improve the service for them. And that's what digital is about: tackling old problems in a new way to benefit the citizen, and creating new skills and innovation as we do it.

The pandemic has forced the pace of change. Wales has led the way in issuing IT equipment to support individuals to connect with the world, from home schooling, to providing access to those in care homes. We've witnessed the rapid advances being made in healthcare video appointments through the Attend Anywhere service. In all of these cases, deployment was based on an immediate need, and the teams involved should be applauded for their efforts in introducing services in weeks that in normal times could take years to deliver.

But despite our successes, I'm keen to avoid complacency. There are lessons we should be learning from the roll-outs, including the sometimes uneven application of services. For example, more than a third of the devices requested by care homes have yet to be switched on, which shows that providing equipment alone is not enough. We need to build the confidence and the skills of everyone to use technology. And it's a reminder that more needs to be done to ensure users continue to be put at the heart of service design.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales is punching above our weight when it comes to tech jobs and skills, and the most recent Tech Nation visa report was highlighting the standout success for Wales. We've seen a seismic shift in demand for cyber and artificial intelligence skills in Wales, and a 200 per cent increase in demand for AI jobs over the past three years. The forthcoming economic recovery plan promises to build on that. Taking on Professor Brown's recommendations to accelerate industrial transformation, a focus of the plan will be to encourage the evolution of digital innovation clusters. This will include working with industry, research institutions and other stakeholders to co-produce the partnerships that these clusters will need to thrive.

Later this week, we'll be engaging with employers in an online event to accelerate the take-up of digital in their businesses. Our Superfast Wales programme continues to offer practical help, and the most recent findings of our digital maturity index will show the progress we are making.

Universities play a crucial role, too, and I'm very encouraged that Cardiff, Swansea, Aberystwyth and Bangor universities have come together in a joint project for a data nation accelerator. This was a specific recommendation of the Brown review, and has the potential to give Wales an edge in applying research, development and innovation in AI and data science. We're engaging with the UK Government and UK funders to make the case for this partnership to be supported.

Today, we are ready to launch a new digital strategy for Wales, but instead of publishing it as a finished product, I'm keen to embrace a crowd-sourced approach. We're putting it online, in draft, for people to comment, criticise and improve. Digital is not about just technology, Llywydd, it’s about an open approach to innovation, and in that spirit, I'm also publishing the first in a series of blog posts for citizens to shape our digital strategy. We will take on board suggestions and aim to publish a final version in March.

Members will be aware that this is a policy area I've been passionate about since I joined the Senedd in 2016. We have made some progress over the past four years, but there is certainly a lot more to be done. I recognise the role Government can play in providing direction for this agenda, but this journey is not exclusively for Government to lead. Government alone cannot move fast enough to keep up with the rapid pace of digital change, and citizens, businesses and institutions must play their part to effectively grow this movement in Wales. Change is not an option, and unless we are content to let it happen to us, we must all work together to harness the change to benefit the citizens of Wales. Diolch.

Can I thank the Minister for his statement today and the advance copy as well? Of course, as the Minister said, he's been passionate about this since he came into the Senedd in 2016, so I'm aware of that as well. Can I also thank Professor Brown for his report as well in terms of the challenges and opportunities of digital innovation? And from my perspective, I think we've seen a step change in terms of technological advances as a result of the pandemic. I'm working from home today, and actually having quite a challenge with technology, as it happens, today. 

But I wonder if the Deputy Minister could set out what the Welsh Government has done to evaluate how public services have adapted in the context of the pandemic, perhaps both negative and positive. There's also the traditional delivery of services, and I'm just keen that we ensure that it isn't inferior for those who remain digitally excluded, of course. Professor Brown has previously said that digital innovation should not be seen as just technological advances—it's about transforming organisational cultures and increasing digital inclusion needs as a priority. So, how does the Welsh Government intend to ensure that everyone is taken with them on this particular agenda, I suppose, in terms of those who are vulnerable, those who might come from areas of multiple deprivation, those who come from a different starting point, I suppose, in terms of their confidence in using particular technology and various skills?

I know Professor Brown has said that he wants to have a national conversation in regard to digital invitation, so I am pleased that the Deputy Minister has just talked about putting out his proposals in draft, if you like, first. I welcome that. He does say he welcomes challenge and criticism, so I look forward to that because sometimes the Deputy Minister doesn't like criticism, so I'm pleased with that.

I know, in the past, that others, academics and experts, have suggested that there should be a digital inclusion tsar—a digital inclusion tsar—so I wonder if perhaps the Deputy Minister can outline what he thinks of that particular proposal. And in terms of, then, how Government is going to be scrutinised—how he is, his officials, departments—how are they going to be scrutinised and held to account in terms of delivering digital innovation across the whole of Welsh Government? I know on 29 September the Deputy Minister said that he would provide a further update in November in regards to covering Superfast Cymru deployment. I don't think there's been any update and we're now in December, so correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Deputy Minister could update on that, because, clearly, there is that divide between the haves and the have-nots, which often—not exclusively—is between urban and rural Wales. So, perhaps you can update on that.

And again, this is one of the Deputy Minister's favourite talking points, but, in terms of automation and artificial intelligence, advances are being made so quickly that perhaps business and even Government can't keep up. So, in terms of that, there are those that are being skilled at the moment perhaps whose skills will not be needed in perhaps even a shorter time than perhaps we might have expected. So, how is the Government dealing with that, and in terms of what the Government is doing in reaping the benefits of digital innovation as well? And finally, I wondered perhaps if the Deputy Minister could outline what discussions he's had with the finance Minister in terms of increases in research and development funding to achieve what, essentially, he wants to achieve.

Well, thank you for those comments, Russell George. I can sense that his energy levels are not quite the same today because of his IT problems, and I think it's probably because of the absence of Winston Churchill hanging behind him, who has been a regular companion of Russell during his digital presence in the Chamber. So, I think he's missing his spirit today, perhaps.

I certainly don't recognise the picture that I'm not somebody who likes criticism. Certainly, I am keen for criticism and keen to encourage it. It doesn't mean I always agree with it when I have it, of course, but that's a different matter, and I think, by publishing this strategy as a crowd-sourced document, we recognise that, too often, Government sits in rooms by itself and comes up with a plan and doesn't test it with the people who have to implement it in the real world. That's why I'm keen on this. The expertise in this lies out in civil society, and I really want them to feel they own this strategy and can change it, so that when it is published in March it's got a far greater chance of being implemented if there's a feeling that it resonates with real-world priorities and problems.

He asked how we are evaluating how public services have adapted. I think that is a good question, and I mentioned in a moment of candour during the speech how some of our initiatives, though well intentioned, have not gone quite to plan. So, the roll-out of digital devices to care homes I mentioned in the statement. We have rightly congratulated ourselves for how quickly we've got them out, but we've been surprised to note that so many of them have not been used. That's not untypical with previous experience. I just anecdotally was aware previously of tablets being handed to schoolteachers, and many of them lay unused in drawers. I think that goes to one of his points about skills and confidence, and to the concept of being excluded, because when we talk about digital exclusion, we, I think, conjure an image in our head of people who have no skills at all, but actually exclusion is far broader than that. It's about the ability to gain the full potential of the technology. So, some people may be able to only do basic things and not get the full range of benefits from it.

So, we certainly are aware already from the services we've rolled out that it's not simply good enough just to give people kit. You have to change the culture and you have to enable them and skill them to be able to use it. I think that, for me, is the key point of this digital approach. And he asked how we make sure people are not given an inferior service. I think these two concepts are linked. The whole point of setting up this digital centre for public services in Ebbw Vale was based on a discovery process, as it's called, a research exercise to understand what the needs were, and we found that lots of leaders and public servants didn't feel confident in digital, didn't understand its potential, and didn't really get the concept of designing services with the end user in mind. So, we're now rolling out rapidly a training programme for public servants to get this. And once we get that right, a service that's designed with the user in mind will be designed for those who are online just as much as it'll be designed for those who are not online. So, the ability to engage with the service shouldn't depend on how proficient you are with technology; the service should be designed in a way that it can used by people who are switched on, as well as those who are switched off. And I think that's a really important change of culture that we are embarking upon, and that is vital, to take on his other point about the need to take people with us. So, we shouldn't need a digital inclusion tsar; we should mainstream inclusion into the way we design services, and I think that is the approach that we are setting out on.

He asked about the Superfast update during November. I apologise if that is a day late. I have certainly signed that off and I hope that'll be with him before the end of today, if not, tomorrow. But we are certainly committed to keeping that stream of information flowing and to aid in him in his ability to hold us to account for delivery. His question about how we are held to account is an interesting one, because he referred to delivery in the Welsh Government, and I think that this is the point I've really come to realise since taking on this role—and I mentioned this in the statement—the Welsh Government is a small player in this, and I think we should not see the Welsh Government as the main driver of this change. We are a catalyst, and we have to work with others—other institutions and other partners—to make this happen, because the Welsh Government simply cannot move fast enough, nor does it have the heft to really be able to meet the scale of change and challenge that automation presents to us. It has a role, and I don't seek to shirk that, but I don't think we should see ourselves as the lead on this; we are part of an ecosystem that needs to bring about change.

His final question on R&D—we are looking forward to further details of the UK Government's announcement that it will increase spend on R&D. We certainly have had discussions in the run-up to our own budget of what more we can do in this agenda, and I look forward, as he does, to hearing what the finance Minister has to say about that.

I thank the Deputy Minister for his statement and, obviously, for the advance copy. I'd like to begin my comments by just saying that I think the Welsh Government is to be commended to be looking forward at a time when so much energy is concentrated on dealing with the here and now. I think we can all be very glad that this work has been able to be progressed, faced with the big pressures both on Ministers and, obviously, on their officials at this very, very difficult, challenging time.

The Deputy Minister is right, of course, to identify, as the report itself does, that digital—the digital age, automation—is a powerful and disruptive force, and disruption can be positive and it can be negative. I'd like to explore a little bit more what the Deputy Minister said about sharing best practice, because I'd agree with him that, in Wales, we're sometimes very good at developing a new initiative, but then we're not always very good at spreading it. I wonder if he can say a little bit more in his response about how the digital hub is identifying some of those barriers to change. I suppose I'm interested to know, as well, on this particular topic, whether some of what they're learning about those barriers to change, particularly in the public sector, and how those are overcome, might be lessons that we can overcome when we're trying to spread good practice, potentially, in other fields.

I was glad to see him highlighting the importance of the data innovation accelerator. It's very positive to see our universities collaborating in that way; it's not always easy for them to do so. I wonder if he can say a little more in his response to me about how the UK Government and UK funders are responding to the case that he's making for supporting this initiative, and whether there is more that the Welsh Government could do. I'm asking that in the context that, of course, if there are UK-wide resources that we can bring in to support this work, that's very much to be encouraged.

I want to welcome the approach that the Deputy Minister is taking to finalising the new digital strategy. I think that kind of collaborative, open approach is a good practice model, especially in a world like this where, as the Deputy Minister said, nobody knows all the answers, because this is such a new world for everybody. I wonder if he would consider, or if he is already, taking steps particularly to encourage young people to participate in that process. I know that some of our major youth work charities have had collaborations with Microsoft, with Google—young people who you perhaps wouldn't expect to have good levels of digital skills actually know an awful lot about this, and certainly know more about it—you know, the digital-native generation, where they take these things for granted. So, I wonder, if he hasn't done that yet, whether he might consider how that might be done.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Deputy Minister is right, of course, to say that this is going to come and he's right to say that this will be a huge transformation, and I think it's right that the approach to that transformation should be proactive and positive, but I wonder whether the Deputy Minister will also acknowledge that we can expect the world of work to be totally transformed by this over time. When he mentions the removal of mundane tasks, well, that, of course, is the case, but we have to consider how those who now make their living doing those mundane tasks will make their living in future.

I'm sure the Deputy Minister will agree with me that the last major transformation in our economy in Wales—the end of coal mining, the end of much heavy industry—was profoundly traumatic for many communities, like those of the Gwendraeth valley, which he and I both know well, and some of those communities are still living with the bad effects of that transformation.

There may not be enough work to go round as we have traditionally known it, as this transformation goes out, so I wonder if the Deputy Minister would agree with me that, in addition to developing that positive national digital strategy and, as he rightly says, Government taking the lead but not exclusively, and working in partnership, we also should be looking at, potentially, more radical responses to how we think about work, what constitutes work, what matters. Should we be considering a shorter working week? Should we consider the potential role of a universal basic income that could free citizens up to be more creative, to spend more time with their families, whatever they wanted to do?

I'd like to recommend that the Deputy Minister considers looking at the work of the Just Transition Commission, established by the Scottish Government, which aims to ensure that this coming digital industrial revolution is managed in such a way that it really does improve the lives of people and communities, rather than, if we leave it purely to the market, the risk that we make them worse. 

Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for the positive tone of her contribution and for the very relevant questions that she's asked? I'll try to deal with those in turn. So, in terms of spreading best practice and understanding the barriers to change, the way that we've set up the digital centres—. So, I led an expert panel two years ago, before I joined the Government, looking at public service digital reform, and then have been involved in putting that into practice. Sally Meecham, who is now leading the centre for us, undertook a discovery phase, which was to understand, speaking to a whole range of people across public services, what the need was. One of the principles of digital change is that it's based on the need of the user—you understand what the needs are and then you design and test and iterate a service that meets those needs. You're constantly innovating, changing and responding, and that's what digital is about—it's not about IT; it's about an open approach to learning and change.

So, that was very much done to set and make the case for the digital centre, and we're now in the early phases—obviously, COVID has slowed it down—of rolling that out. It has a number of key roles: one is to be a centre of expertise and to be the go-to place where public services in particular can go to get advice on good practice, but also then to carry out the change. So, the digital transformation squads that I mentioned are hosted as part of the centre, and they're working, in the first instance, with Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen and Neath councils on social care. I'm hoping there'll be a separate squad working in Blaenau Gwent council on waste.

We want to see more and more of these digital transformation squads in every organisation, because they work across disciplines and they work as a team and they tackle a problem with a whole-system change in mind. By doing that process properly, the barriers to change will be addressed as you go, because by understanding the needs you then figure out solutions. So, I hope—the point of digital reform is that it's, as I say, a new way of tackling an old problem. It's a fresh chance to come at public service delivery shortcomings and use digital as a way of trying again.

The early signs of the centre's success are very encouraging. They've recruited a very high calibre advisory board to help the work. There's a lot of goodwill, and the other thing we've done as well alongside it is to create, now, an ecosystem of digital leadership. So, we have a new Welsh Government chief digital officer; we've just appointed a chief digital officer for local government, hosted by the Welsh Local Government Association, to raise skills and expectations, to be a leader in the field; and we have a commitment to create a chief digital officer in the NHS also. And those together will have a leadership role to set the digital standards, because that's the other key part of the centre's role. We've seen before, and when I was on the Public Accounts Committee we saw a number of examples of this, where we had an approach of what was called a 'once for Wales' approach, which effectively was the right principle, but in effect worked at the pace of the slowest. So, how can we achieve consistency without slowing everybody down? And through setting common standards is the way to do that, and that's going to be the other role of the centre. So, I'm excited about its potential, and it's only just getting started.

The digital nation accelerator, I've met a number of times with the vice-chancellors to discuss it. Again, huge potential. It's still being shaped and we are having early conversations about how we can shape that in a way that is useful. Because, from my point of view, it's impact that matters, and what I don't particularly want is a set of universities going away and coming up with a research-led project, which gets them very excited, but doesn't really help us to bring about the change that Phil Brown identified that we need to tackle. So, the conversations I've been having with them are that I think this if for the UK funding bodies to put the significant lion's share into, because, as you know, we do not get our fair share, our population share, of funding from the UK funding bodies, so it's important that this is a project they should embrace. But we, as a Welsh Government, are prepared to play our part in shaping that, so long as what they're developing meets our needs in public service and economic reform. So, I think that's a fair trade.

The point on the digital strategy is an excellent one of how we engage young people. When I sit down, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'll be putting up the first of the blogs, and there will be more to follow in rapid succession, and they're open for everybody to engage with. They'll be done in themes and chapters, so people with a particular interest in different elements of it can respond in their field of interest. But I think the point about how we're engaging specifically with young people is a very well made one, and I shall reflect quickly about how we can try and do that, and any suggestions she has I'd gratefully receive them. She made a couple in her statement, so I shall, as I say, reflect on them.

And then her final point about the world of work being transformed and it being traumatic for those involved is absolutely right. The fourth industrial revolution is going to bring enormous benefits for a small number of people, and it will displace and disrupt and harm a number of people through the transformation too. And it is the role of government and governments to intervene to make sure that those benefits are spread widely, and those who are displaced are helped to adjust. And I think that is really important, because if we don't handle this right, this could be a hugely negative force and it could be a source of great social unrest and disruption and economic harm. But it doesn't need to be that way.

So, what I particularly liked about the example I quoted in Caerphilly, where they've used robotic process automation, which has been used in some cases to bring about financial savings and a reduced headcount, is that what Caerphilly have said is, 'We want to use this to take staff off boring stuff that people don't need to be doing and that are best done by algorithms.' But not see that as a reason then to get rid of those staff, but to free those staff up in public services, which are stretched, to do other stuff, because we know there are roles that human beings do better than machines, involving empathy and helping people, and that's something people should be freed up by technology to do. If we follow that framing that Caerphilly are leading the way with, then I think we've got a good chance of pulling this off in a way that helps society and doesn't harm it. Though, no doubt, there will be jagged edges along the way.

And the final question about a universal basic income, I too think, in the long term, that this is something that is attractive, and I think the First Minister said earlier in the Chamber that he's keen to look at exploring a pilot of this on a cross-party basis, and I was very pleased to hear him say that.

Thank you. We are two thirds of the way through this 45-minute statement, and I've got a number of speakers left, so I'll just put that—[Interruption.] No, no, I'm just putting that on the record. Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Brown speaks presciently about the shift to online shopping, and that's of course echoed in today's devastating news about the collapse of Arcadia and Debenhams, undoubtedly accelerated and exacerbated by the pandemic. It can't just be the poor leadership of the private equity ownership to extract maximum surplus value; it has to also be the change in shopping habits. As you said, if we don't change, we die.

So, how do you think that the fourth industrial revolution could be applied to assist Cardiff to re-engineer its commercial centres to become community spaces as much as places where we continue to shop? I wondered if you could tell me a little bit more about Caerphilly's NearMeNow, which, I think, is helping maintain those links that are essential in the foundational economy, putting local shops in touch with local shoppers.

Secondly, how can the Government help the workforce whose jobs are disappearing today in retail to retrain to meet that 200 per cent increase in demand for AI jobs that you spoke about in your statement? Would that be a role for digital public services in Ebbw Vale or through the data nation accelerator, led by these four universities? I wondered if you could say a bit more on that, because I'm sure many retail workers would be very keen to hear that.

Thank you very much to Jenny Rathbone, and she makes a very strong point. Clearly, we are seeing today the reality and the result of digital disruption—we've seen it in many other areas too. We can see it in the fate of local media, which has been a perfect case study in digital disruption. There's no doubt there's a huge question for the future of town centres and shopping centres as people move online, and I don't think we can stop this trend; I think we need to try and harness it. So, I think, as I said in the statement, I'm keen to look at how we can help small businesses become more digitally savvy themselves to be able to sell and trade online. And I think the NearMeNow app that Jenny Rathbone mentions is an excellent example of trying to help town centres and small businesses to be able to get online to offer their goods, and I'm keen to see what more we can do to help SMEs in particular to do that.

I don't think the digital centre in Ebbw Vale or the digital nation accelerator are the right vehicles for that. The centre in Ebbw Vale is about public service reform and delivery, and the accelerator is about research and development and how it's applied. But there is a huge role for reskilling people. The ReAct project that we already fund has the ability to help people to retrain digitally. There is, in fact, a whole range of initiatives from degree apprenticeships in IT and frameworks to essential skills qualifications that we have, the Wales Union Learning Fund and the DigiTALent project, which allows people already in work and recent graduates to upskill. But I do think we need to do more in this area, and I think the challenge for all of us is: how do we help people to upskill as they go, rather than wait for their jobs to disappear and then realise that they no longer have skills relevant for the marketplace? Welsh Government is doing a lot on skills, but I think this is one of these areas where all of us know that society needs to do more to help people to adapt.

In opening my contribution to this debate, I would echo the words of Professor Brown, in his presage to his report, where he says he hopes 

'this report acts as a catalyst to ignite a national conversation on what digital innovation means for the people and communities of Wales, not just the high-tech innovative businesses of the future.'

The report also identifies in depth the effect AI may have on employment in Wales, often talked about in a negative context. However, given the right leadership and financial support, I believe the catastrophic effect that some predict for Wales can be substantially avoided. I'm hugely impressed by the innovative way outlined by the Deputy Minister, by way of publishing a draft report, which would allow input from interested sectors. But can I ask how the draft will be promoted?

People have been predicting the loss of jobs through automation since the time of the Luddites; the reality is that automation has meant fewer working hours and more holiday periods, which has created a huge expansion of jobs in the service and hospitality industries. But Wales should look at the fourth industrial revolution as a great opportunity to move away from the low-paid jobs sector, and seek to become world leaders in some of the niche markets that digital and AI will generate. Indeed, we have to congratulate the Welsh Government on its support for the cyber innovation hub, created in south-east Wales, aiming to make Wales a world leader in this area. This proves that, in such specifically targeted sectors, we can be at the forefront of new technology and thus create a new technology based economy for Wales. Could the Deputy Minister indicate such niche markets he intends to explore in the future?

In order to establish such an economy, we should implement immediately the first recommendation of the report in the creation of six industrial innovation clusters, to develop industrial transformation road maps. These ITRs would help to identify current strengths and potential digital innovation at a regional, national and international level. In order to achieve this in the most effective and efficient way, I believe there should be a restructure of local government into six regions, each with more power and larger budgets, to help facilitate a greater integration, cleaner streaming and more comprehensive implementation of these digital innovation centres. Would the Minister indicate whether he will be following this advice?

The Welsh Government should also implement, as a matter of urgency, the second recommendation of the report, that of integrating existing business, skills and innovation support to form a single business diagnostic and transformation process, and to ensure—

Can the Member wind up, please?

Yes. [Inaudible.]—to support the transformation of a new digital industry.

Thank you. There was a lot in there, and not much time to respond, so I'll try and be brief. I welcome the positive comments David Rowlands made about the approach we are taking, and particularly for the cyber innovation hub, which, I think, as he recognises, has got significant potential.

I did mention, in terms of the digital industrial clusters, that we are taking up that recommendation of the Brown review. I don't think, as I said, that it is for the Welsh Government to lead each of those clusters; I think it's important we play our part with others in making them relevant to the sectors that they are designed to advance. I think the digital nation accelerator project by the universities is a really good example, where it's the universities who've led and who've taken the initiative there, and they're now coming to us to ask how can we help them to realise their vision, and I think that is the right way around. This shouldn't be a top-heavy Government-led approach; this has got to be based on the needs of the economy.

In terms of his point about niche markets, I think it's an interesting point and is reflected back to a point earlier in his contribution: I don't think this is just about the shiny and the new and the high-tech industries; this has got to be about everyday economy as well. So, the question I'm interested in is: how do we integrate this agenda into the foundational economy, which, too often, have been characterised as being low skill, low productivity, low wage, but they needn't be? So, how do we get this innovation agenda into the everyday services? So, the foundational economy challenge fund, for example, has taken up a number of those projects. One project in Denbighshire is looking at how we can use automation and robotics to help people in care to adapt, tackle loneliness, for example. So, I think there are all sorts of positive niche ways, to use his term, that we can draw on this agenda to help other problems that we have.

And finally, on his first point about how do we promote the consultation, well, I'd be grateful for all Members' help in drawing people's attention to the fact that this is now live. We'll be tweeting it this afternoon, and let the crowd do their best.

I won't take too much of your time. Many important points have already been made, but as it's so important, I think, to draw in ideas from across the Senedd, I wanted to draw attention to the cross-party group on digital that I am in the process of establishing. I think there is agreement that it is so important to get the strategies right on digital, and I think it's important that there is a platform in order to bring various partners together in order to seek to influence Government. I think this opportunity to discuss the consultation on the digital strategy does mean—well, it suggests to me at least that this is the right time to do this. So, thank you to those who have shown support for this. I thank the Minister too for the positive response—or rather the Deputy Minister—to this. There are so many social and economic changes and opportunities emerging from digital—we have M-SParc and the DSP centre here, Compound Semiconductor Application Catapult in Newport, the spectrum centre in Aberystwyth. There's so much to discuss, economically and socially, and I invite everyone to play their part in that discussion.

Thank you very much for those comments. I welcome the tone and the content of the contribution, and I just add my support to the initiatives that M-Sparc are doing in Ynys Môn. I think they really are leading the way in the application of innovation, from a project of theirs I'm recently aware of in hydroponics in food production, but also, I think, particularly exciting is their use of LoRaWAN, which is low-frequency gateways that can be adapted to bring the 'internet of things' agenda to life. So, they've done some very good work there on simple things like farm gates, to help farmers with real-time intelligence to help them manage their livestock and their land, and the Patrwm project in a number of town centres across north Wales, where they're able to monitor in real time the number of people coming to town centres. This has been stemming from a project that began in Cardigan, where Councillor Clive Davies, the current mayor of Cardigan, has done excellent work, working with local traders to use the free broadband signals that have been funded to get data to help the shopkeepers understand where people are coming from, what times of day they're coming for, are they responding to events. I think the challenge now is to use that data to drive policy. So, it's great to get the data, but now we need to understand what the data is telling us that further brings about innovation and change. I think M-SParc are to be hugely commended for the leadership they've shown in this, and there's much more they can contribute to getting this agenda mainstreamed across Wales.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.