Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:42 pm on 12 January 2021.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:42, 12 January 2021

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, Mohamud Hassan was a fit and healthy 24-year-old. On Friday evening he was arrested at a property in Cardiff, where neighbours reportedly spoke of a significant commotion. Having been taken into custody at Cardiff Bay police station, Mr Hassan was released without charge on Saturday. Later that evening, he tragically died. Witnesses were reportedly shocked by Mr Hassan's condition following his release, saying that his tracksuit was covered in blood and he had severe injuries and bruising. There can be no doubt that this is a deeply harrowing case and every effort should be made to seek the truth of what happened. Why was Mohamud Hassan arrested? What happened during his arrest? Did he have legal representation? Was there any aftercare? Why did this young man die? Whilst we should not prejudge the outcome of any inquiry, will you commit, First Minister, to doing everything within your power to help the family find those answers? And do you support their call for an independent investigation of this case? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:43, 12 January 2021

Well, Llywydd, I thank the leader of Plaid Cymru for that question. I've read the reports to which he referred. They are deeply concerning, of course, and our thoughts must be with the family of the young man, who was, as Adam Price said, a fit and healthy individual, whose death in the circumstances that the leader of Plaid Cymru described must be properly investigated. Now, I understand that the police have already referred, as they would have to, this matter to the independent police investigation service. The first step in any inquiry will have to be to allow them to carry out their work. I absolutely expect that to be done rigorously and with full and visible independence. I am glad that the family have secured legal assistance to them in order to pursue their very understandable concerns. And if there are things the Welsh Government can do, then I will make sure that we attend properly to those without, as the Member said, prejudging in any way the outcome of the independent investigations that now need to follow.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:45, 12 January 2021

In 1990, following the most high-profile murder case in the history of South Wales Police, three black men were wrongly convicted of the murder of Lynette White, and, 11 years later, 12 police officers were acquitted on a technicality in the largest police corruption case in history. In the case known as the Butetown Three, five police officers were disciplined 11 years ago following an incident in Cardiff when two black students who had been attacked by skinheads were themselves arrested and charged with violent disorder. In 2019, the death of 13-year-old Christopher Kapessa, who drowned in the River Cynon, was described as an accident within 24 hours by South Wales Police. Only after a persistent campaign did the Crown Prosecution Service admit there was sufficient evidence for a manslaughter prosecution. Christopher's mother Alina described the force as 'institutionally racist'. Given the history and their daily experience, do you understand, First Minister, why so many people of colour would have some sympathy with that statement?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:46, 12 January 2021

Well, Llywydd, let me say for the record, as I know the Member himself would, black lives matter in absolutely every aspect of public services and public life here in Wales, and that obligation lies with our police services as much as with any other part of Welsh life. I have been, though—to make the record a fair one, I have myself attended with senior members of the South Wales Police at mosques and other gatherings of black communities here in Wales at points when those communities felt very badly under threat, because, for example, of the Christchurch attacks in New Zealand 18 months or so ago. That night, South Wales Police mobilised across the whole of their area, making sure that mosque communities felt protected, that they knew there was a visible presence of the South Wales Police there, and I attended myself with the chief constable at a number of meetings with leaders of those communities, making sure that they knew that their police service was there to look after and to protect them.

So, I think that we have to look at the record in the round. Where disturbing matters happen—and I was a member of the South Wales Police Authority during those awful years around 1990, when there was a failure to grasp the significance of what had gone on and the depths to which cover-ups had been engaged in, but I think, while we take those things seriously, and absolutely must do, there is a wider record and a great deal of commitment from very senior people in our police services here in all parts of Wales to make sure that the right things are done, and we need to support them in that even while we make sure that those individual examples, of the sort that the leader of Plaid Cymru began his questions with today, get the proper, independent and open attention that they need to reassure those people who are most directly touched by them.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:48, 12 January 2021

First Minister, you're right, obviously, to point to those positive steps that should be supported and encouraged, but would you accept that more can and needs to be done? I'll give you one example—just 2.6 per cent of South Wales Police officers are black, Asian and minority ethnic, compared to 6.7 per cent of the population within the force area. Statistics produced by the Wales Governance Centre show that our prison population here in Wales is even more racially disproportional than that in the United States. You're five and a half times more likely to go to prison if you're black than if you're white in the US; in Wales, the figure is six and a half. In June last year, when we were discussing the case of George Floyd and the repercussions of that, I asked you to commit to setting up a wide-ranging inquiry into the roots and remedies of structural racism and racial disadvantage here in Wales. You said then you would consider that proposal. Have you made a decision?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:49, 12 January 2021

Well, Llywydd, I definitely agree that more could and should be done. Lots of that will be represented in the race equality action plan, which the Welsh Government will publish in just a few weeks' time. That race equality action plan has been informed by the report into the structural causes of racism here in Wales, which has already been commissioned and has already reported. So, that report was chaired and produced by Professor Emmanuel Ogbonna, a distinguished academic and member of the black community here in Wales. It makes for sobering reading, as the Member I'm sure would agree, and there's no place where it is more shocking than in the figures to which Adam Price has referred this afternoon in the criminal justice system. The level of discrimination faced by black people in the wider criminal justice system absolutely has to be grasped and remedied. It's one of the reasons why taking forward the proposals of the Thomas commission is so important, because it would give us opportunities we don't have now to be able directly to deal with some of the points that the Member has quite rightly raised this afternoon. 

On his final question about a report into structural racism here in Wales, that report has been commissioned and that report is available, and it has formed the basis of the race equality action plan. I'm very grateful indeed to Professor Ogbonna for his continued engagement in the production of that plan, which will use all the levers available to us here through our devolved powers to address the pernicious impacts to which the leader of Plaid Cymru has referred in his questions this afternoon. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:51, 12 January 2021

(Translated)

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Paul Davies. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, the Welsh Government's vaccine strategy has confirmed that 280,000 doses of the Pfizer vaccine and 47,000 of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine have now been received here in Wales, and yet we know that only around 91,000 doses have been administered. And we know, as of yesterday, 2.7 per cent of the population of Wales has been vaccinated, compared to 3 per cent in Scotland and 3.5 per cent in England. Can you explain to the people of Wales why the roll-out of the vaccine has fallen behind other UK nations to date, and can you tell us why you believe this is not a sprint, given that this is a race to actually beat the virus? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:52, 12 January 2021

Well, Llywydd, the leader of the opposition is right that the race is against the virus, not against any other part of the United Kingdom. That race will be run not over a week, but over months and months ahead. We will still be vaccinating people here in Wales well into the final months of this calendar year, and what I was trying to explain to people is that that will have to be a sustained effort, not something that is just over and done with in a few days or a week. We are going to have to gear up to make sure that we are flat out right across the system to vaccinate the maximum number of people as quickly and as safely as possible. 

Let me deal with the first point that the leader of the opposition made, Llywydd, to make sure that people understand the position here. We are using every bit of the Oxford vaccine that we get as soon as we get it—22,000 doses last week; we expect 25,000 doses this week; 80,000 and maybe a bit more than that next week; and then a rising, and, let's hope, rapidly rising, volume of supply. With the Pfizer vaccine, we received the majority of those 2,800 doses just around Christmas. They have to last us until the end of the first week of February. They're not given to us to use in a few days; that is the supply Wales has for the whole of January and the first week of February as well. And that's why it would never have been a sensible proposition to have suggested that we should have used the whole of that supply in the first few days. That supply has to be evened out over the weeks for which it is available, so that we have vaccinators with work to do in every week able to make the very most of that supply. And the Member will remember that, on 31 December, the advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation changed. At that point, we thought we would have to halve that supply, because we needed to be able to deliver two doses of it to everybody within the time that we had that vaccine to use. On 31 December, that advice was changed, and I think it was the right thing to do. It will save, we think, 10,000 people here in Wales from contracting coronavirus, to be able to use a first dose of that vaccine for people more rapidly. But the reason why it hasn't all been used in the first few days is because it's got to last us for six weeks.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:55, 12 January 2021

Well, First Minister, the health Minister was absolutely right to say that it was a race, and that's why it's crucial that, when doses are received, they are administered as quickly as possible to those in priority groups across Wales. It's clear that the Welsh Government must urgently accelerate the roll-out of the vaccine in Wales if we have any chance of seriously suppressing this virus in our communities. It's also clear that the Welsh Government has to look at using all available medical practitioners to help administer the vaccines, including retired clinicians and more community pharmacists. However, in an open letter, retired consultant surgeon Professor John Fairclough has made it clear that the failure to ease the method by which retired clinicians can be recruited will reduce the capacity of the NHS to achieve its vaccination roll-out.

Indeed, in my own health board area, a retired clinician made it clear to me, and I quote, 'Having read a request for volunteers from our local health board, Hywel Dda, in the local newspaper, I applied a few weeks ago but have heard nothing. It appears I am not the only one who has experienced this. It pains me to see my GP colleagues struggling with their work and having to take on the additional responsibility of administering the vaccine.' End quote. Surely, the Welsh Government should be doing everything possible to recruit retired clinicians to help deliver the vaccine across the country. Therefore, First Minister, can you tell us what steps the Welsh Government is taking to recruit retired clinicians to administer the vaccine? Can you confirm the number of community pharmacists the Welsh Government is planning to use to help roll out the vaccine? And can you also tell us what discussions have been had with health boards across Wales about utilising retired clinicians as an additional workforce in administering the vaccine in Wales and whether there are any barriers in place preventing retired clinicians from helping to deliver the vaccine?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:57, 12 January 2021

Llywydd, I have been in—[Inaudible.]—between the injection and the infection, and that is the race that I am focused on and the health Minister is focused on: making sure that we maximise our capacity to use whatever supply of vaccine comes our way as a result of the UK Government's procurement of it. Let me be clear, Llywydd—I'm grateful for the opportunities that there have been to discuss this with the UK Government. I discussed it with the other First Ministers and with Michael Gove on Wednesday of last week. I expect to have another discussion tomorrow. The health Ministers met on Thursday of last week, and I'm quite confident that everything that can be done is being done by all four nations to get supplies of the vaccine and to get it to where they are needed and to use it as fast as possible. That's the race that we are involved in here in Wales.

Of course we want to use as many qualified contractors to help us in that effort, and I'm hugely grateful to the enormous response that we have had from GP practices the length and breadth of Wales. I think every single GP practice in the Hywel Dda area has signed up to deliver the vaccine, and we will be deploying community pharmacists as well. The first community pharmacy to deliver the vaccine will be by the end of this week, and that will be in north Wales. There are, as I'm sure Paul Davies understands, some practical things that have got to be sorted out, and you've got to have a bit of a chance to make sure that everything is being done in the best and safest way. You've got to give it a bit of a chance to allow that to be tested. We will test that with community pharmacy in north Wales before the end of this week, and then we will want to use community pharmacists in all parts of Wales. They were very much part of our effort to deliver flu vaccine over the autumn: 1,100,000 people received flu vaccination in Wales over the autumn period, and that just demonstrates the capacity of the system here in Wales to deliver vaccination on a mass scale, using all the different levers available to us. We want people who are retired to come back to help us with that effort. That is how the people that the leader of the opposition referred to knew about that. They'd had an invitation. They'd had a request to come back. Now, we still have to make sure that returning staff are properly equipped for the job we're asking them to do. Even if you're an experienced vaccinator, you've never used these vaccines; you've got to be trained in using these particular vaccines. You need to know the potential ab reactions that there may be to it and that does have to be in place in order for people to be able to operate successfully, effectively and safely. I want those barriers to be the minimum possible, but they've still got to be there to safeguard the person who is carrying out the job and to give confidence to the people who are being vaccinated.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 2:00, 12 January 2021

First Minister, the Welsh Government's COVID-19 vaccination strategy also confirms that the number of mass vaccination centres across Wales will be increasing to 35 over the coming weeks, with at least one in each county. Given that the Welsh Government started with seven centres five weeks ago, there is at least some progress on this front, however, it is absolutely critical, which I'm sure that the First Minister will agree with me, that all parts of Wales have a vaccination centre in their own locality.

In my own constituency, which is home to a large elderly population, many people continue to be frustrated at the lack of a vaccination centre in Pembrokeshire, and yet we're still no closer to seeing one set up. Therefore, can you provide the people of Wales with a timetable as to when these new mass vaccination centres will be established, along with their locations, so that we can actually track and monitor their development? And can you also tell us what criteria have been used to decide on the location of each of these centres, so that the people of Wales can understand the rationale behind the Welsh Government's decision making on this particular issue?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:01, 12 January 2021

I thank Paul Davies for that, Llywydd. He's right that we started with seven mass vaccination centres; we had 14 before Christmas; we have 22 today; and we'll have 35 by the end of the month. I'm confident that there will be one, as there should be, in Pembrokeshire because we want one in every county in Wales. The criteria that have been used to identify those centres are a combination of availability, accessibility and speed. We have to use locations that are quickly available to us. We need them in places where people can get to; people will be driving to them and they've got to be able to park, there has got to be all of those sorts of things, and they need to be the places that can be most speedily brought into use. So, those are amongst the criteria that have been identified in finding the vaccination centres.

I should say, because I know that the Member will be interested in this, that we've got 70 army staff now working with the Welsh Government on exactly those logistical issues. I came into work here in Cathays Park this morning at 8 o'clock and the first four people who went in in front of me were people wearing army fatigues, and we are very grateful indeed for the help that we are getting from the armed forces—both the 14 army vaccinators who are helping us directly with vaccinations, but the 70 other army staff who are helping us with the planning and the provision of the centres that we need and the facilities that go alongside them in every part of Wales.