The next item is the debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report on children's rights in Wales. I call on the Chair of the committee to open the debate, Lynne Neagle.

Motion NDM7549 Lynne Neagle

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the Children, Young People and Education Committee Report, 'Children’s rights in Wales', which was laid in the Table Office on 11 August 2020.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. Ten years ago, a new law, the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, put children’s rights on a legal footing in Wales. It’s now more than six years since all parts of this legislation have been fully in force. This means that Welsh Ministers must now have regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child when exercising any of their functions. What’s clear is that this legislation has never been more important.

The COVID-19 pandemic means that our children are not going into their schools. Their playgrounds were shut at the start of the pandemic. They can't hang out with their friends, and they've got restrictions on going to their usual clubs and leisure activities. Some children may be more at risk of being harmed at home. This is less likely to be picked up by front-line services because children are not being seen as much in school, and they're less likely to have face-to-face contact with social services. We also know that looked-after children have had restricted contact with friends and family. What we know for sure is that, for many children and young people, their mental health and well-being is being seriously affected. If any adult needed an example of what children’s rights are, and why they matter, then this pandemic illustrates the point in the sharpest of ways.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

The Children, Young People and Education Committee has worked hard to ensure that children’s rights have been at the heart of all our work during this fifth Assembly. Children’s rights matter in everything we do. This has been the case whether we are scrutinising Government policy on youth services or mental health, whether we are considering the need for legislation about the physical punishment of children, or whether we were looking at school funding.

In June 2019, almost a decade since the introduction of the rights of the child Measure, we felt it was the right time to examine whether this legislation has been working effectively. In 2011, this law was seen as breaking new ground and led to Wales getting international recognition, but the measure of its success must be whether it has actually made a real difference to the lives of children and young people in Wales.

The first thing we did was look at how this law is having an impact on Welsh Government’s decision making. We also wanted to know whether it has made any difference to the way the Welsh Government allocates its funding. We heard clear frustrations from stakeholders about the pace at which the Measure has influenced policy and spending. They told us that there is a lack of reference to children’s rights in key strategic documents. They also told us there is insufficient evidence that the duties in the Measure are being delivered across the whole of the Welsh Government. It’s not clear whether there is systematic consideration of children’s rights across Government. Whilst there are good examples in some departments, more progress must be made. As well as the obvious examples, such as education and social services, policy areas such as housing, health, planning, the economy, the environment and transport have a massive impact on children’s daily lives. Children’s rights must have an impact on decision making across all ministerial portfolios, and proof that this is happening must be more transparent.

Next, we looked at the duties within this new legislation that are intended to make children’s rights a reality. We wanted to know if the right mechanisms are in place to deliver change. We heard that child rights impact assessments are an important tool to support the implementation of this legislation. These assessments should analyse whether Welsh Government actions will have a negative, neutral or positive impact on children’s rights. The intention is that they are used at an early stage of decision making in order to inform that process. The committee heard concerns that these impact assessments are often produced too late in the policy development process. There were also concerns that they are sometimes written in a way that looks as if they are explaining policy decisions that have already been taken, rather than informing decisions that are yet to be made. This demonstrates to us that children’s rights are not driving the Welsh Government’s decision making as the legislation intended.

More recently, it’s pleasing to hear the Children’s Commissioner for Wales’s view that the quality and detail within some of these impact assessments have improved. One positive example relates to the level of detail and analysis published by the education department about school provision during the pandemic.

The 2011 legislation also placed a duty on the Welsh Government to make sure adults and children know about the UNCRC. This was so that adults and children understand what children’s rights are and why the law is in place. However, many of the children and young people we heard from made it clear to us that there has been no systematic approach to telling them about their rights. Our evidence also showed us there is a real gap in the knowledge and understanding of children’s rights amongst the general public.

In light of this, 10 years since this legislation was enacted, we conclude that a national awareness-raising strategy is long overdue. We have also recommended that the Welsh Government should tell children and young people how to complain if they think that this new law is not working well. This information must be given to them in a way that is easy to understand.

Since our report’s publication, the Welsh Government has published a new children’s rights scheme for consultation. This is a plan it's required to have by law, and which sets out how it intends to deliver the legislation in practice. We are pleased to see that an awareness-raising strategy and a child-friendly complaints process has been included in the new scheme. What we must see next is the detail behind it and a commitment as to when these outputs will be delivered.

One other important aspect of our inquiry was to look at how well the Welsh Government is implementing article 12 of the UNCRC. It says that children have the right to have their say when adults are making decisions that affect them and to have their opinions taken into account. It’s vital that children and young people have an influence on decisions that affect them, not just because they have a legal right to do so, but because, more importantly, it leads to better decisions and better outcomes. We recommended that the Welsh Government set out in its revised children’s rights scheme a clear strategy to ensure the participation of children and young people in discussions on Government decisions that affect them. We welcome the fact that this has been included in the new draft children’s rights scheme. We will monitor how this progresses in the remaining months before the election.

The final recommendation that I would like to focus on today is about strengthening the legal position of children’s rights. Never has the extent of local authorities’ influence on children’s daily lives been more visible. Yet, while public bodies, including health boards, play a pivotal role in delivering services to children and young people, and receive significant amounts of public money, the rights of the child Measure does not impose duties on them. We heard that the Welsh Government is therefore not always able to ensure that children’s rights have a direct influence on the services children and young people receive, or the decisions these public bodies make. We were persuaded by the evidence we received that extending the duties in the Measure to bodies such as local authorities and health boards will help deliver this change.

In drawing my opening remarks to a close, I have already said that the COVID-19 pandemic has meant that the rights of the child Measure has never been more important. But what we must remember is that implementing this legislation properly has always been important. As a committee, we believe there must be a renewed emphasis on getting the implementation of the Measure right. We also note that the United Nations is scrutinising progress on implementing the UNCRC across the UK in 2021.

Before the pandemic, we heard from children and young people about the rights that are important to them and what can happen when they are not made a reality. It was great to hear from nearly 1,000 young people from all five Senedd regions. It was also wonderful to meet the children from the Lleisiau Bach projects in north and south Wales. They gave us a really warm welcome and were keen to tell us what children’s rights meant to their lives. One of the rights that was clearly important to the young people we spoke to was the right to be safe: the right to be safe at home; the right to be safe in their communities; the right be safe online. A stark reminder, if any was needed, of the lives that some children and young people in Wales are living. A reminder of what children’s rights mean in reality.

I would like to thank all those who have helped us with this work. The detailed input from stakeholders and the views of children and young people have been invaluable to our scrutiny. We are particularly grateful to those who have waited patiently for our report, which we postponed to enable all efforts to be focused on the public service response to the pandemic, and to those who provided feedback to us on the Welsh Government’s response, in order to inform today’s debate. With their help, we have made a set of practical recommendations that we believe have the potential to make rights a reality for all children and young people in Wales. Ten years on, it is now over to the Welsh Government to put renewed emphasis on getting this right. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you. Am I okay to speak now, Deputy Presiding Officer?  I can't hear you. Sorry, if I'm—. Can everyone hear me? Yes, good. Okay. I take it that's for me to speak. Okay, thank you.

I'd like to start by thanking Lynne Neagle and the committee and all who have inputted into this important work for all the hard work they've put into it. I welcome this report and its aim of measuring progress in Wales towards the principles set out in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The report was agreed before lockdown and before the full impact of the coronavirus pandemic on the lives, health and well-being of children and young people were known. We now know that the consequences have been severe. So, this report is timely and is a relevant milestone in enhancing children's rights in Wales.

The committee makes 16 recommendations to the Welsh Government and I wish to address some of those in my remarks today. The first three recommendations relate directly to the Welsh Government. In her report to the committee, the children's commissioner said that there is no training for Ministers on how to exercise due regard to children's rights through their role. The commissioner called for compulsory training for Ministers—a point repeated by Save the Children UK, which said that

'without a strong body of knowledge about children’s rights amongst all officials and Ministers, it will be difficult to ensure that the due regard duty will be effective across Welsh Government cabinet portfolios and policy.'

We also believe that a ministerial role should be created at the earliest opportunity, with clear and defined responsibilities for children and young people.

The committee was also concerned about the gaps in knowledge of children's rights that exist amongst both adults and children. Efforts to promote awareness and understanding of their rights are not reaching all children, including those who may be disadvantaged or less engaged. Significant improvements are needed in letting those children most in need know about their rights. We call upon the Welsh Government to develop and publish a strategy to raise national awareness with measurable outcomes to promote wider knowledge and understanding amongst the public. By widening knowledge of their rights, it also follows that there could be an increase in complaints by children who feel that the Welsh Government has not complied with its requirements under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. As such, we need to ensure that the complaints mechanism is fit for purpose.

At present, the complaints system outlined in the children's rights scheme is being underused and needs to be improved. Criticism was also made that it is geared towards an adult audience and that it is neither accessible nor suitable for children. The Welsh Government must address this and include a strengthened and child-friendly complaints mechanism in its revised children's rights scheme to ensure that our children and young people can seek to protect their rights.

In 2016, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child gave its verdict on progress to deliver and enhance children's rights in Wales. Although they recognise that progress has been made, concerns were expressed about whether the Welsh Government's response to the concluding observations is strategic and systematic. The children's commissioner said that the concluding observations were a really useful guide for the Government as to what they should be doing and that the lack of a detailed response from the Welsh Government was a missed opportunity. We call on the Welsh Government to publish a detailed strategic response in the next six months, detailing progress made and outlining action being taken in addressing the concluding observations, and to update this on an annual basis.

Presiding Officer, I believe the recommendations contained in this report will greatly progress the rights of children and young people in Wales. I would encourage everyone to look at the good practice that I've seen since joining the children and young people committee last year and how they're doing things. I think it's been a very welcome move and I've been very impressed with what's going on there. So, if we could repeat that throughout the Parliament, that would be fantastic. I believe that this is a positive move by the Senedd and I look forward to a response by the Minister.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I'm very pleased to take part in this debate on behalf of my party, Plaid Cymru, but also as co-chair of the cross-party group on children and the cross-party group on looked-after children, roles that I'm very proud and grateful to share with David Melding. I'd like to thank the Chair and the committee for what is an excellent report, with very powerful recommendations and very well evidenced recommendations. I also echo the gratitude that's already been expressed to all those who participated in giving evidence, particularly children and young people themselves.

Those of us who were Members of this Senedd in 2011, as the Chair of this committee was, when the rights of children and young persons Measure was passed, will remember that the process was by no means straightforward and that there was resistance from within some parts of the Welsh Government at that time, because they felt that placing the convention on a legal footing was constraining to the Government. Those more progressive voices prevailed, and I'd like to put on record again my thanks to all those who helped us in civil society, many of whom went on to give evidence, and particularly to the academics at Swansea University.

When we passed the legislation, it felt like a really exciting development on a route that had been part of our Senedd's pathway right from the beginning, when one of the first things that we had to deal with was the terrible Waterhouse report into child abuse. Right from the beginning, we have debated these issues, and passing the legislation felt like an important step forward. In that context, in some ways, this report makes disappointing reading, because while absolutely there has been progress, there is clearly so much more to do.

I want to give my personal support and Plaid Cymru's support to all the recommendations. There's no time, of course, in this debate to refer to them all. I want to begin by highlighting those that relate to child rights impact assessments. We need to transform the culture so that all those involved in producing these assessments see them as what they are intended to be, which is a resource to help Government improve practice and not a further burden. Knowing the pressures on our public services, it is understandable if that's how these impact assessments are sometimes perceived, but that is not the intention. This is a tool to help us all do better by children, and we need a shift so that people understand that. It doesn't work to include child rights impact assessments under broader equality assessments. They're not there to do the same things. So, I very much hope that the Government will accept all that the committee's had to say with regard to child rights impact assessments.

I particularly want to give our support to recommendation 3. It's really important that Welsh Ministers, right at the top, understand the implications of the Measure for them and for their work, and understand what 'due regard' is intended to mean. It is always a risk in any institution that we lose institutional memory, that we forget why we needed this legislation in the first place, that we forget how much it matters. This recommendation goes a long way to addressing that, and I hope that whoever forms the next Welsh Government will embrace that with enthusiasm.

The recommendations about redress are also very important. I won't attempt to go through them one by one, but I've long believed that rights in themselves lack value unless those rights can be enforced. In the end, there is little point, Llywydd, in having a law if nobody gets into trouble if the law is broken. That's what laws are for, otherwise we can achieve policy objectives with budgets, with policy documents. But if it's a law, there has to be a way for somebody who feels that that law has been broken—and in this case, particularly for children—to be able to say, 'No, my rights were not addressed, my rights were not respected, and this is what I want done about it'. That is a particularly important part of this report, and the evidence was very clear to me.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

I want to briefly mention recommendation 15, that all devolved public bodies must be placed under the same 'due regard' duty. I think those of us who were part of the process of passing the original legislation perhaps assumed that if that responsibility was placed on the Government, that due regard would trickle down to the public bodies for which the Government is responsible. The report evidences that, while there is excellent practice, this has not happened everywhere. I have a particular concern that it has not happened everywhere in education and that there are still some of those working in our education field, hopefully a minority, who think that talking in terms of children's rights means allowing children to do exactly what they want to do, which, of course, is not the case. So, I strongly hope that the Government will support this.

And finally, if I can just mention recommendation 16. Our children's commissioners have done sterling work, but it is an anomaly that the commissioner is answerable to and appointed by the Government. It arises from historical time when the commissioner's role was created. It's important now that we move to a point where the commissioner is appointed by and answerable to the Parliament, and I believe that we could get cross-party consensus for that in the next Assembly.

Llywydd, there has definitely been progress in turning children's rights into reality in Wales. It was a particular privilege for me, and made me particularly pleased, to be back in this Senedd to vote for the removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement and give all our children equal protection with adults, but this report does show how much further we have to go. I hope that Welsh Government will accept all its recommendations and the need for root-and-branch action to turn these rights into reality. The cross-party groups will continue to work with and support the committee to scrutinise the Government in this regard. Diolch yn fawr. 

Can I call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate? Julie Morgan. 

Thank you very much. I'd like to extend my thanks to the Chair and to all the members of the Children, Young People and Education Committee for this very comprehensive report on children's rights in Wales. The full Government response to the recommendations can be found on the committee's web pages. In addition to the responses to the Children, Young People and Education Committee, I've also held a roundtable discussion with key stakeholders from the children's sector to hear their views on children's rights in Wales, and I was delighted that the clerk of the committee was able to attend on behalf of the committee and that some Members were also able to come.

Of the 16 recommendations, I am very pleased that the Welsh Government is accepting 11 of them, and accepting in principle one further recommendation. We have rejected four of the recommendations. I'll use this time to go through the recommendations.

Recommendation 1 asks that we reiterate the importance of children's rights at every opportunity, something that we take seriously and, of course, have accepted. I think there have been quite a few comments today about when the Measure was first passed and the enthusiasm that there was there at the time, and I think what we want to do is to get that enthusiasm back again. We do want to reiterate the importance of children's rights, and we accept recommendation 1. 

Progress has already been made in taking forward a number of the recommendations. Five of the accepted recommendations have been incorporated into the newly revised children's rights scheme, which was published in December and is currently being consulted on. These are recommendations 3, 4, 5, 10 and 12. The consultation closes on 26 March, and I look forward to receiving the views of the committee and Members on our revised scheme. 

Work is also under way on recommendation 8. We will develop a national awareness-raising strategy in partnership with key stakeholders. A number of Members, and the Chair certainly, mentioned a lack of awareness amongst people of children's rights. We are fully committed to fulfilling the legislative requirements of all impact assessments, including where these relate to the assessment of our financial decisions, as set out in recommendation 6. 

Recommendation 9 has been accepted, as developing an awareness of human rights will be a mandatory part of the curriculum for Wales. The Welsh Government is currently preparing our strategic response to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child's 2016 concluding observations, which is recommendation 13. In addition, we are preparing a response to the UK Government on recommendation 11, and I intend to publish both updates before the end of the Senedd term. We've also accepted recommendation 14, and we will provide an update on progress on an annual basis. 

Recommendation 3, to provide training to Ministers, has been accepted in principle, and I absolutely accept that this is the right thing to do, because many Ministers would not have been around when this Measure went through. I think Helen Mary Jones referred to the historical knowledge of the history of this legislation. So, we are developing a training approach for bringing in training for Ministers.

That leaves the four recommendations that we've not been able to accept. That's recommendations 2, 7, 15 and 16. Recommendation 2 is about having a specific Minister. The due-regard duty under section 1 of the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 makes it clear that this duty is placed upon all Welsh Ministers when exercising any of their functions. In addition to this, we already have a Minister responsible for the specific work that Welsh Government does in promoting children's rights, and I'm that Minister. But I do think it's absolutely right that we don't confine the work on children's rights to one particular Minister. I think the due regard duty does make it clear that it's all Ministers that must accept this responsibility for children and for children's rights. So, that's why that is being rejected.

Recommendation 7: we welcome the committee's views, however, our position is still that we believe that taking an integrated approach to impact assessments of the draft budget through the strategic integrated impact assessment better reflects our responsibility to consider our decisions in the round, through a number of lenses, to understand their impact, including consideration of children's rights. But I do intend to have further discussions about that with the Trefnydd.

Recommendation 15: in January 2020, Welsh Government commissioned a research consortium led by Swansea University to undertake research into strengthening and advancing equality and human rights in Wales. And the final report, including the main findings and recommendations, will be submitted to the Welsh Government by the end of February 2021. So, we need to wait for the outcomes of this research before we make any further decisions about recommendation 15.

Recommendation 16: I understand the views of the committee and the commissioner on this topic. However, on balance, I believe that the current arrangement for all the commissioners—because obviously, this wouldn't just include the children's commissioner—which include a cross-party appointment panel of Senedd Members for appointments, it is working well, and we don't really see the need to change the arrangement, and in addition, any change in appointment and accountability arrangements relating to the Children's Commissioner for Wales will require primary legislation, and there's no legislation time available in this Senedd term, so that's a practical reason why we can't do it, but on balance, I believe it is working well.

So, that's a quick run-through of the recommendations, and I'd like to thank very much Laura Anne's view and Helen Mary's contribution, and to thank the Chair for leading the committee to make such good, clear, practical recommendations, which is certainly urging us to do all we can to promote this area of children's work. The Chair said at the beginning of her remarks that never have children's rights been so important as in this pandemic, and I would just like to end, really, by saying how I absolutely agree with that comment. Certainly, in deciding the measures to take in the pandemic, children's rights have been right up at the top of the list for the Government. We also have been able to work with the children's commissioner and other partners to have what I'm told by UNICEF is the only Government of any country that has produced the extensive children's questionnaire that we produced that reached 24,000 children. So, I do think that producing that does show our commitment to children's rights. And also, I'd like to draw the Senedd's attention to the fact of the number of meetings that have been held directly with children during this period. Certainly, I've held a number of meetings; I know that the First Minister has consulted children during this period, and I know that the committee has been very involved in consulting children. So, thank you very much to the committee for this report, and I look forward to furthering its recommendations.

Can I now call Lynne Neagle to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to everybody who has contributed to the debate. I'll try and pick up on some of the points that have been made. Can I thank Laura Jones for her contribution and for her kind words about the committee that she made? I think it was very valuable that Laura highlighted what the committee had said about the importance of having a dedicated ministerial role for children, and notwithstanding what we've just heard from the Minister, that remains the committee's position on this, as I think the committee has seen that it is difficult sometimes to get a cross-cutting approach to children without having a kind of structure in place, as we did have when there was a children's Cabinet sub-committee. So, we are very keen that some structures are put in place and I hope that we can continue further discussions on that. 

As Laura said, the complaints mechanism is vitally important, and that was echoed by Helen Mary Jones, who said that rights are meaningless unless you've got a form of redress, and that is absolutely right. That's why we think this needs to be taken forward as a matter of urgency, so that we can ensure that children and young people are able to enact their rights.

I'd like to thank Helen Mary Jones for her contribution. I know that Helen Mary has had a very long-standing commitment in the area of children's rights. I think it was really valuable that she reminded us of the genesis, really, of the very first children's commissioner, which was in that really sobering Waterhouse report. I think it is crucial that we remember that these are not additional extras, these rights—these are absolutely about safeguarding children and young people. 

Thank you for your focus on the child rights impact assessments, and the committee will be continuing to pursue those. We do feel also, like you, that strategic impact assessments are not good enough, and we've been having that ongoing dialogue with the Welsh Government about the need for a separate child rights impact assessment on the budget. Because it's vital that we remember that children are a unique group, and they don't have a vote, and therefore they don't have the same voice as other groups in society, so it is incumbent on us to make sure that those crucial decisions absolutely take into account their needs. 

Helen Mary also echoed the point about training, and I know that that has been accepted in principle, the recommendation on training. I do hope that that can be taken forward. I know that everybody is busy, but it is absolutely crucial that everybody in Welsh Government has a clear understanding of what the expectations are under the children's rights Measure. 

Thank you, Helen Mary, for your support on the need for all public bodies to be placed under a due-regard duty. I hope that that is something that we can continue to have further discussion with the Welsh Government about, and I just wanted to say that one of the most powerful evidence sessions we had during the inquiry was with the Noah's Ark Children's Hospital, who came and told us how the lack of CRIAs, child rights impact assessments, on research spending in Wales was having a really huge impact on their work, and that we weren't seeing the research that we should be seeing in children's health, and that actually—as a very concrete example—children were having to be sent to London for certain types of cancer treatment because that research wasn't taking place in Wales. So, I think we should never forget that these are not abstract ideas, they're actual concrete things that impact on children and young people's lives. 

I agree entirely in relation to the children's commissioner's role. I note the Welsh Government's continued response on that, and obviously the lack of time now for primary legislation. But I do hope that that is something that will be considered in the next Senedd, because it is an absolute no-brainer, in my view. The children's commissioner's post as it is at the moment was established when the Assembly was a very different body, when we had no separation of powers, and it is now, I think, right to move to a much more robust model that ensures complete freedom for the children's commissioner. 

Can I thank the Deputy Minister for her response and for her continued and ongoing engagement with the committee, and what I know is a very heartfelt, personal commitment to children's rights? I welcome what you've said about having a continued dialogue on some of the issues where you weren't able to fully accept the recommendations, and the committee very much looks forward to having that dialogue with you, and feeding in to the new children's rights scheme.

And I'd just like to close by thanking again everybody who responded to the committee's inquiry, all the staff in the committee team that, as always, have worked so hard, but the final thanks, I think, have to go to the children and young people who fed into the inquiry, who took their time to tell us what children's rights mean to them. And it is a duty on us now to make sure that we press forward and continue to make those rights an absolute reality. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see an objection, therefore under Standing Order 12.36 the committee's report is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.