And I hear what he says, and actually, he is very disrespectful of local government when he claims that it's impossible for them to do a job in this area, so somebody else must take it away from them. We every year sit down with a distribution sub-group, the body of experts that gives us advice; that goes to a group of politicians, the finance sub-group on which local authorities are represented from north Wales as well as everywhere else. The Welsh Government responds to the recommendations of that group.

When I was the Minister for local government and finance, Llywydd, in 2017-18, I remember sitting in that finance sub-group when a report on reform of the personal social services data was discussed. That reform had the effect over two years of moving money away from urban south Wales to rural areas in mid, west and north Wales. That was recommended by the distribution sub-group, and despite the fact that most Members of the finance sub-group would see their own local authorities lose out, it was agreed by that group as well. That's the nature of the formula; you update it, you update it objectively, you use the best data you can, and you implement it, and you implement it in a way that does not look to see where the implementation lands geographically; you look to make sure that it is fair, objective, and defensible, right across Wales.