Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:41 pm on 23 February 2021.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:41, 23 February 2021

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, in response to Russell George's question, you said that education and reopening of education was your No. 1 priority, and I think we'd all subscribe to that. But, regrettably, Ministers have confirmed that some year groups going back to school will not return to school until after the Easter break. So, if you're in years 7, 8, 9 or 10, you will not be returning until after the Easter break, under the current conditions that your Government has outlined. How can you allow, if there's any headroom going through the month of March, for schoolchildren to remain out of school and be opening up other parts of the economy by lifting the restrictions? Has education slipped down your priority list? Or, if it still your No. 1 priority, will you make sure that any headroom that develops through the month of March sees schoolchildren return across all year groups in Wales? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:42, 23 February 2021

Well, Llywydd, returning children and young people to face-to-face learning is the top priority of this Government, but we will do so in a way that is consistent with the science and the advice that we have. Members here will have seen the TAC report, published on 5 February, which sets out that advice and which echoes the advice that has been provided by SAGE. And that advice is simple: that if we were to return all children to school on a single day in Wales, that would raise the R number in Wales between 10 per cent and 50 per cent. We are, therefore, very specifically recommended not to do that. What we are recommended to do is to return children to school in tranches, to pause between those tranches, so that we can properly gather the evidence of the impact of that return on the circulation of the virus here in Wales. So, it is not as simple as saying, 'If you have the headroom, return all children to school' because to do so in that way would involve very significant risks of its own.

We will return the foundation phase this week. We will pause and we will review the evidence that emerges from that return. Provided the evidence is positive, all primary-aged children will return to school on 15 March, together with examination students in secondary school. We will then pause, as the scientific advice requires us to do, to review the impact of that, and, provided that goes well, then we will return other students to school, where we want them to be. If, in the meantime, that means we are able to offer any further easements in other areas, to allow our economy or our daily lives to begin—to begin—the journey back to normality, then, of course, we would want to do that. 

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:44, 23 February 2021

First Minister, it is a matter of regret that certain cohorts of children will not be going back to school until after Easter, and that is the choice that you are taking, despite saying it is your No. 1 priority to get schoolchildren back to face-to face learning as quickly as possible. I was very specific in the way I asked the question about using the headroom that is available through the month of March to allow this to happen in a more timely manner. Regrettably, you chose not to engage with that, and it is a fact that the Government will be leaving a significant cohort of pupils out of school. That is a choice that the Government is taking.

If we look at choices and priorities, the Federation of Small Businesses have talked about radio silence coming from the Government today when it comes to interacting with business over the conditions that the Government would expect to see before opening up swathes of the economy. It is unfortunate that such a substantial business organisation has referred to radio silence coming from the Welsh Government and a lack of a road map being put in place so business can understand what would be expected of them from the Government before they reopen. Can you use this Plenary opportunity to put on the record what conditions you expect to be in place before parts of the economy are reopened and business can plan accordingly? Will you confirm whether you will be bringing forward a road map that has clear gateways and conditions to travel through so that businesses know when they will be able to reopen and begin trading? Because that would be the best recovery any business can expect to have—by trading under normal conditions.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:46, 23 February 2021

Let me just help the Member a second time in relation to schools. We will return students to schools as fast as it is safe to do so. The advice we have is that it would not be safe to do what he is suggesting. If it is the policy of the Conservative Party in Wales to return children to conditions that are not safe for them or for their staff, then let him say so. This Government will not do that; we will follow the science, whatever happens elsewhere. The science is that you must return children in tranches and you must pause between each one. I set out the road map of the Welsh Government in December; we updated it again on Friday of last week. I hope the Member has had a chance to consider that. He wouldn't need to ask me for one if he had taken the trouble to do so. That sets out the way in which we will lift the restrictions that currently are necessary for businesses and in our personal lives. It's clear from what he's said today that businesses in Wales would know where they were if he were to be in charge, because they wouldn't be going back at all, because it would be clear that he wouldn't be able to do that and do what he has just said in relation to education. The Welsh Government will not follow his advice on that. If we are in a position to begin the reopening of businesses in Wales earlier than he would be able to do so, then that is what we will do. We will do it in partnership, of course, with business organisations, as we always do, and we will be discussing those possibilities with them during the three weeks that we now have before the next review has to conclude. 

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:48, 23 February 2021

First Minister, you've taken your usual condescending tone. You might be the professor in the Bay, but you're the professor without a plan out of lockdown and that's a real problem for the economy and for schoolchildren the length and breadth of Wales. What you can do with the powers that are available to you is put some support in for businesses by extending the business rate relief scheme. Will you at least in this third question engage positively and commit today to extending the business rate relief scheme that has been extended in other parts of the UK and would be a relief to many businesses facing business rate demands? Because in the absence of any coherent plan to bring the economy out of lockdown and with the evidence provided by the Federation of Small Businesses that there's radio silence coming from the Welsh Government, try and pull one lever at least to help the economy regain its confidence.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Llywydd, 64,000 businesses in Wales have already received rate relief as a result of the decisions of this Welsh Government. I understand how important that is to businesses, but we will wait until Wednesday of next week, 3 March, to see the Chancellor's budget, so that we are clear about how much money we have as a Government for all the different purposes that we have to discharge in the next financial year. If the Chancellor makes provision for rate relief, then we will be able to provide rate relief here in Wales. I'm not prepared to commit to using the money we have next year until I am clear on the quantum of funding that will be available not just for businesses, but to support the health service during this pandemic, to support local authorities in the work that they do, to make sure that third sector organisations, the arts, all those many things that we have to attend to—until I know how much money is available to the Welsh Government next year, I'm not prepared to come to a conclusion on any one aspect of it. To do so would be simply irresponsible. Once we know, on Wednesday of next week, whether Wales is to have money taken away from us next year again, as we have on so many occasions during the 10 years that his Government has imposed austerity on Wales, or whether we have the money that we need to attend to the calls of businesses and others—once we know, this Government will make allocations to those key sectors during the month of March. I hope very much that we will be in a position to do as the leader of the Conservatives here has suggested, and to offer further help to businesses in Wales, but we won't be in a position to do that until we know what his Government in Westminster has got in store for us.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:50, 23 February 2021

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

First Minister, how many care workers in Wales currently receive less than the real living wage?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:51, 23 February 2021

I'm quite sure the Member will be able to give me an answer to that question. I'm well aware that publicly provided social care in most parts of Wales does provide the real living wage, and in the private sector, where most residential care is provided, there are employers who are yet to do so. We are using our grant in aid to the sector to encourage the provision of the real living wage, and we hope that we will be able to make significant progress as a result of the additional money that we provide.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

According to the Resolution Foundation, First Minister, more than half of all care workers in Wales currently receive less than the real living wage—poverty wages, in other words. That was unacceptable before the pandemic and it's certainly unacceptable now. That's not just my view; it's also the view expressed recently by your party's deputy leader, Angela Rayner, who has called for the Government in England to commit to a care worker minimum wage of £10 an hour. Are you prepared to match that commitment to a £10 an hour minimum wage for all care workers here in Wales?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:52, 23 February 2021

I certainly agree with the Member that it's unacceptable that people who have done so much at the front line during the pandemic are not paid at a level that recognises the value and importance of the work that they do. Of course, if my party at Westminster succeeds in persuading the UK Government to make such a payment, there will be money that will come to Wales to allow us to fund such a commitment. But I always have to ask myself where the money will come from. Week by week, he asks me to spend money that he hasn't got and I haven't got, and I'm keeping a running total of his many, many unfunded commitments that he constantly tries to press upon me. The Welsh Government is using the money we have in a way that would promote the payment of the real living wage in the social care sector. That is a business investment, in my view, for those private organisations that fail to do so at the moment. In the money that we provide, we are doing everything we can to make sure that that is made their priority. If more money comes our way, we'll be able to do even more.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:53, 23 February 2021

First Minister, the Scottish Government has already committed last year to ensuring that all care workers in Scotland receive the real living wage. Why aren't you prepared to make that commitment here in Wales? The unions are calling for it, the care sector is calling for it, the Bevan Foundation is calling for it. Yes, you're absolutely right, it would be a priority to deliver for a Plaid Cymru Government. The Labour Party is committed to supporting it in England and Scotland. They just put an amendment there this week to go further than the current commitment of the Scottish Government. Why won't you commit to doing it as a Government, to making the same commitment, where you have the power to make such a difference to tens of thousands of care workers' lives, and the people who depend upon them?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:54, 23 February 2021

The only priority the leader of Plaid Cymru has is to make fine-sounding speeches in which he promises anybody that he will be able to solve their problems. So, this is a priority for him—well, that's good to know. Last week, it was a priority for him to spend money on free school meals. The week before that, it was a priority for him to provide childcare for all families with a child above the age of one. The week before that it was to spend £6 billion on investment, which he hasn't got. Priorities, Llywydd, mean not just simply saying things that he thinks people will want to hear. It means having to make decisions that match the harsh realities of budgets with the ambitions that we have. This Government had a real ambition to improve conditions in the social care workforce. It's why we decided that it would be a registered profession. We have a real ambition to make sure that people are properly paid in it, and we will find the money to match our priorities. Simply adding, week after week, to totally uncosted wish lists, which is all he ever has to offer me, really is a remarkable performance of voodoo economics that he conjures up here on a weekly basis, and he's done it again today.