4. What assessment has the First Minister made of the performance of Cadw across North Wales? OQ56393

Llywydd, Cadw continues to discharge its statutory responsibilities, and to sustain its custodianship of sites across Wales, in ways which observe the restrictions made necessary by the coronavirus emergency.

Thank you. First Minister, Kinmel Hall was in the headlines again recently. It's been dubbed the Welsh Versailles, but has fallen into dangerous disrepair, and this piece of Welsh heritage is at very serious risk of being lost forever, despite being a grade I listed building. I see that one of Cadw's first priorities is caring for the historic environment. First Minister, what is the point of the listing system and what is the point of Cadw if neither serve to protect Wales's heritage? Thank you.

Llywydd, I thank Mandy Jones for that, and I share her concerns about Kinmel Hall and the reports of the deterioration in the state of the building that I and she will have read in reports. The position though is this, isn't it: Kinmel Hall is a privately owned facility; it's not in public ownership. Cadw has discharged its responsibility, which is to list the building. After that, it is for the local authority—it's the local authority that has the responsibility to make sure that the building is maintained in a state that matches the listing that Cadw has awarded to it. And the local authority has the power to issue statutory repairs and urgent works notices. Now, I understand that, while the current owners in the past have been reluctant to recognise the need for action to address the state of the building, in more recent times, there has been a greater appetite on their part to take the steps that are necessary, and that Conwy County Borough Council is in discussions with them to make sure that those steps are undertaken. Cadw remains involved, but in a supporting role to the local planning authority, providing them with options that are available in protecting the business—the building, I beg your pardon. But it is not Cadw's responsibility, once the listing has been carried out, to make sure that the building is kept in a proper state of repair. That is the responsibility of the owners, and where the owners are in default of that responsibility, it's for the local authority to step up and make sure that the actions that ought to be taken are taken.

First Minister, I've listened very carefully to your answer in respect of Kimnel Hall, which, as you will be aware, is in my constituency. It is a very precious building, it's a very important part of our national heritage as a nation, and, of course, the Welsh Government does have the ability to be able to step in, acquire this building, and to make sure that it is protected for future generations. As you will know, Cadw do not only work with local authorities and list buildings, they actually do act as custodian for many important historical buildings across Wales. So, my constituents would like to see the Welsh Government and Cadw working with both the local authority and the current owners, but where those current owners do not have the appetite or the resources to protect this building for future generations, can I ask: will the Welsh Government consider stepping in and acquiring this building as part of our national heritage? It is Wales's largest country home, it is known as the Versailles of Wales, and it does deserve that extra level of protection that other buildings that might be in a similar dilapidated state don't require. So, can you step in if the need arises?

Llywydd, I thank Darren Millar for that contribution, and I share a lot of what he has said about the significance of Kinmel Hall, its importance to Wales as a whole. Where Cadw has responsibility for the upkeep of monuments, buildings and sites, it is because those sites are in public ownership, and Kinmel Hall is not in public ownership, it has private owners, and as far as I am aware, those owners have never shown an appetite for the building to be taken out of their ownership and acquired by the Government on behalf of the Welsh population more generally. It would be a very big step, wouldn't it, for the Government to compulsorily remove a building from private ownership, and that would not be my preferred course of action. If there is an appetite on the part of the owners for a different ownership model in future, then, of course, the Welsh Government would be part of that conversation. We're not the only possibility there, of course. I know Darren Millar will be very well aware of the National Trust's operation here in Wales, and there are a number of ways in which privately-owned buildings can make their way into wider forms of ownership with different levels of custodianship for the future.