3. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the Welsh Government's legal assessment of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2021? OQ56679

Thank you for that question. The UK Internal Market Act 2021 undermines the long-established powers of the Senedd and Welsh Ministers in matters within devolved competence. In the challenge we brought to the Act, we have been granted permission to appeal. The Court of Appeal notes that it raises important issues of principle on the constitutional relationship between the Senedd and the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

I'm grateful to you, Counsel General, for that response. The question of course was framed before we had that happy news from the court. I'd be grateful if you could confirm that you will provide this Parliament with regular updates on—[Inaudible.]—progresses. My question to you—[Inaudible.]—is this: we've debated and discussed the internal market Act on a number of different occasions during its progress through the United Kingdom Parliament and we debated how that will impact our powers here in this Parliament. I'd be grateful if you, as a Minister, were able to provide us with regular updates in the form of a written statement, perhaps, on how those powers are being used, because I think, in terms of the debate we're having at the moment, it would be useful for all sides of the debate to understand the specific impact of the Act on the governance of this United Kingdom, as well as the general impact in terms of the balance of powers. So, it would be useful for us to understand the specific powers that are being used, what they're being used for and what their impact is having on the powers that are held in his place.

Well, thank you for that. And, firstly, on the statement on the legal action itself, we of course await a court hearing. I did issue—. As soon as I had the notification, I issued a written statement, which you've had, to keep Members informed, and, of course, I will update, as appropriate, as time proceeds.

On the issue of the powers of the internal market Act, yes, I think the request you make is a perfectly reasonable one, that we need to be alert to the way in which those powers are being used, and powers, in fact, in a slightly broader range around the internal market Act—not just those, but the way in which, out of the post-Brexit legislation, the issues of the way in which the emergence of increased concurrent powers, the way in which despatch-box agreements, are being used to, or have been used to, actually bypass sometimes the Sewel agreement, the actual status of Sewel and so on.

But the most recent example, of course, that we're all aware of is when the UK Government published its plan for Wales—a plan that, in fact, breaks all the commitments that were given that Wales would not be a penny worse off as a result of leaving the EU. That was action that was taken, using the powers of the internal market Act, without any engagement with Welsh Government whatsoever, despite the very clear mandate we have in respect of the devolution statutes, the intention of Parliament itself in terms of what the powers and responsibilities of this Parliament actually are. So, that was the first major exercise of those powers, which is ongoing, but there are many more, and it is my intention to comprehensively look at not only the internal market Act but all those other pieces of legislation where there are issues of their relationship to the status and integrity of this place and the way in which they impact on our ability to deliver for the people of Wales, particularly in the areas that we're very concerned about—in terms of food standards, in terms of environmental standards, which are clearly areas that are likely to be impacted, potentially, by UK Government trade deals.

I thank the Counsel General for that answer and the written statement that he has made on the issue. However, Deputy Presiding Officer, his view has been denied by the UK Government, who argue that nothing within the Act changes the legislative competence of the Senedd. And the divisional court ruled that the Government's attempts to overturn the Act using courts rather than the political system were inappropriate, and his predecessor's failed attempt at the court case has already cost an untold amount of civil service time plus £87,458 of taxpayers' money so far. Will he confirm to the Senedd that the Welsh Government will now stop their attempts to try to re-fight the referendum and listen to the will of the people of Wales, who, I will remind him and the Member who brought this question here today, voted to leave the European Union, and not waste more taxpayers' money on appealing this again, and start focusing on the things that matter to the people of my region of South Wales East and Wales, like the recovery of the economy from the pandemic, improving Wales's education and driving down NHS waiting lists?

Well, I thank the Member for the question. I suspect the question was dated before she or her adviser had the opportunity to actually read the written statement that I made, because the appeal was lodged and the appeal has actually been successful, and there will be a hearing on that appeal. And it's very interesting that the appeal court judge recognised the significant constitutional issue that it's raised, which is why that leave was actually granted.

In terms of no powers having been taken away, the fact of the matter is that that is just rankly untrue—for one example, the issue of state aid, which is now a reserved matter but wasn't previously. Now, that is really significant in terms of the way the Welsh Government can exercise its economic powers. But I make the further point to you again in terms of what is important: you're right, when you go onto the doorstep with people, the first thing they don't ask about is the constitution. But if, for example, you go to the people of Wales and you say, 'What do you think about community safety? How safe do you think your community is?' They will start talking about, 'Well, we need to see the police here, we need to make sure there's better engagement', et cetera, and then you have to explain actually that, of course, policing isn't devolved, and people don't understand that. When you talk about the fact that one of our objectives is in terms of equality and social justice and you find out that equal opportunities is a reserved matter. There is an illogicality to what is there, and I'm afraid the Member has fallen into the trap, along with her colleagues, of putting their head in the sand and ignoring what is actually happening in reality and the opportunities that exist to address some of these anomalies.

Counsel General, you've said that you will now bring forward an appeal to challenge this flagrant attack on Senedd competence. From day one, Plaid Cymru identified the threat to our hard-won democratic powers, and the reality is that there is a supermajority here in this Parliament to extend those powers, but the Westminster Government is denying that majority and that mandate. Their actions now are so blatant that even Labour Ministers here who once defended the union are questioning its capacity to deliver for the people of Wales. So, Counsel General, given that you are announcing a national conversation about our future powers, including, of course, the implications of the internal market Act, will you confirm that all options will be discussed in that process, including a contingency plan for the break-up of the UK in the event of Scottish independence or Irish unification?

Well, the precise parameters and the actual nature of the engagement in the conversation that are going to take place have got to be ones that are open. You can't say, 'We're going to have a conversation with the people of Wales about the future of Wales and about these issues,' and say to people, 'By the way, you can't discuss this, you can't discuss that.' I think I have a good idea where some of the consensus may lie, but we will test that when we actually have the conversation. For me, what is going to be important in it is that it engages not only with organised society. I'm very pleased, for example, that Wales TUC are going to have their own commission on the issue of workplace rights and where those powers should particularly lie. I think that is a very significant step forward, being led by Shavanah Taj, the new regional secretary of the Wales TUC. But I think it is also important that we engage with those organisations that have real roots within our communities, but also we have to look at the ways in which we engage with those peoples within our society who don't engage, who have basically given up on the political system. I've said several times—and I'll perhaps finalise on this particular point—we have a crisis of democracy in our country when 40 per cent of people don't vote in UK Westminster elections, 50 per cent don't vote in Senedd elections and 60 per cent don't vote in local government elections. That is a crisis of democracy in my view, and one of the purposes of this conversation is going to be to actually re-engage with the people, to take every step that we can to work out ways in which there can be empowerment of individuals of communities, and also the governance of Wales.