7. What plans does the Welsh Government have to pursue the devolution of welfare administration? OQ56748

Welsh Government welcomed the report 'Benefits in Wales: options for better delivery', published by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee in October 2019. Following the committee’s recommendations, we are improving welfare benefit take-up and will continue to explore how further devolution of the benefit system would improve outcomes for people in Wales.

I thank you for that answer, Trefnydd. A large number of stakeholders have suggested that the devolution of the administration of welfare could provide an opportunity to create a more compassionate system. The older people’s commissioner, for example, said the Scottish approach helped shift perceptions away from those of stigma and burden around the system. Devolution to Wales could allow us to do the same.

The Wales Governance Centre, as I’m sure the Trefnydd is aware, has examined the financial implications to Wales of devolving the same package of benefits that have been devolved to Scotland, and they found no evidence to suggest that devolution of these powers would be fiscally unsustainable. In fact, they said, dependent on the Barnett mechanism used and the nature of the inter-governmental agreement, the Welsh Treasury could stand to benefit considerably from the devolution of welfare powers.

If the Welsh Government is keen to support and protect the most vulnerable in our society, then I would press on the Government to look to push for devolution of the administration of welfare in the first half of this term. We can’t afford to wait for a more progressive Government to become available at the other end of the M4—we can change people’s lives and we can protect people right here, right now, from this place, and I would hope that the Welsh Labour Government would share that ambition as well.

Well, I do realise that devolving certain powers relating to elements of social security could provide us with a wider range of tools to tackle poverty; I certainly think we would be a far more compassionate Government than the UK Government. But I think it's really important that we carefully assess how any long-term changes to social security, including the devolution of welfare benefits, will be funded. It's no good having the powers without the funding. We've been caught too many times, as a Government, in relation to powers coming to us. I remember the council-tax reduction scheme—and the finance Minister's smiling at me—you know, the power's come over but not the funding. So, I think it's really important that we recognise that.

And, of course, we have really challenging times. Now, we've had challenging times before, after a decade of austerity from the UK Government, but the COVID-19 pandemic has built up those challenges. So, I think we would be extremely cautious of agreeing any changes to the social security system, and that includes devolution of welfare benefits at this time. I think the right thing now is to focus on making sure—because we have the levers to do this—we focus on making sure that we improve outcomes for those hardest hit by the pandemic and that people are aware of the financial support that is available to them, and that was one of the recommendations that came out of the ELGC report.

Well, as a member of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee that produced the report on 'Benefits in Wales: options for better delivery' last year, we heard, in Scotland, that devolution of administration, particularly assessment of certain benefits, had secured complete cross-party support in Scotland. But our report also stated

'the potential prize of delivering services that better suit Welsh specific needs' must be balanced against

'the possibility of breaking the social union' across the UK, which underpins

'the principle that all UK citizens have an equal claim to the welfare state, and that benefits and burdens depend on need and not geography.'

When we debated this report last September, I welcomed the Welsh Government's acceptance of our recommendations, that it established a

'coherent and integrated “Welsh benefits system” for all the means-tested benefits for which it is responsible...co-produced with people who claim these benefits and the wider Welsh public' and that it used the Oxfam sustainable livelihoods approach toolkit, recognising that

'all people have abilities and assets that can be used to improve their lives', adding,

'We now need words turned into real action so that at last things are done with people rather than to them.' 

So, what action has the Welsh Government therefore taken since to turn its words into real action—[Inaudible.]

Well, as I mentioned, we very much welcomed the recommendations from that report, about ensuring that we used the levers that we had, to make sure people right across Wales understand all the financial support that's available to them. I'm really pleased that the implementation of the Welsh Government's child poverty income maximisation action plan has helped to maximise the income of people right across Wales.

The Minister for Social Justice published the progress report on that action plan—I think it was last week—and one outcome was that the programme of targeted income maximisation advice and support meant that people were helped to claim an additional income of nearly £2.5 million. Tackling poverty and providing for those most in need is absolutely a top priority for this Welsh Government, and the previous reforms of the social security system have raised issues here in Wales, and we do continue to make representations to the UK Government. I know the Minister for Social Justice wrote to the relevant Secretary of State just last week, regarding the top-up of the £20, and to try and retain that, as have done six ex-Conservative Secretaries of State.

And finally, question 8, Rhianon Passmore.