Item 8: debate on a Member's legislative proposal, a children's residential care Bill. I call on Jane Dodds to move the motion.

Motion NDM7723 Jane Dodds

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes a proposal for a Bill on the regulation, monitoring and commissioning of children's residential care, including those who require inpatient mental health care, and services to people with learning disabilities or other neurodiversity in Wales.

2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:

a) improve the commissioning and delivery of children's residential care placements in Wales, including co-ordination and delivery across local authorities to improve the sufficiency of suitable placements;

b) improve the regulation and monitoring of residential care and fostering placements, including alignment with other services such as education, housing and homelessness, and health;

c) remove the provision for profit-making providers from the residential care sector for children looked after, as well as services for people with learning disabilities and neurodiversity.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start by making a declaration of interest on this item, as I'm still a registered social worker.

'They said I was going to be there until I was 18 but because it was so expensive…they had to move me back down...they waited until I got my GCSEs, I thought that was fair, but didn't like a decision about my future based on money given they had put me there in the first place.'

This is a quote from a young girl, who, by the age of 16, had already been moved to 10 different places that she was expected to call home. That not only gets to the heart of the motion here today, but draws into question the way in which we provide care for children and young people. And I bring forward this proposal because time is of the essence.

The interplay between motivators for providing care for some providers, and the budget and capacity challenges faced by local authorities, mean that too many children are going without the care that they need and deserve. Children and young people in care have said, quite clearly, that they can feel like commodities—a burden on others.

We refer to the care system, but the experience of staff, children and young people suggests something other than care; rather, it can describe a complex, bureaucratic system that has developed over years, which is distracted by its component parts rather than by the needs, voices and hopes of children and young people.

I have proposed legislation here because, as was recognised in Scotland, adding to the complex patchwork of systems and processes only serves to further remove the power of children and young people over their own lives. Legislation was also viewed in Scotland as an opportunity to go back to basics: that we must recognise children’s status as human beings with a distinct set of rights, not simply passive recipients of care.

In Scotland, that included removing the provision for profit making from the sector. In Scotland, all providers must be registered with regulators, and they are scrutinised to identify any presence of profit to ensure that funds are directed to the care and support the young people need, not to private shareholders. My proposal here would remove the ability of private providers to profit from the care of vulnerable children, ensuring that every penny is reinvested in care and staff and not back into the pockets of shareholders.

This is not a judgement about private providers; many, I know, in my experience, are there to establish focussed, dedicated care and support. But, we must recognise the way in which the profit motive of some does impact negatively on the ability to focus solely on care and not battling with a complex, bureaucratic system.

I don’t pose this simply for moral reasons, but because the enormous pressure on local authorities to find placements, coupled with growing pressures on budgets, leaves little room for the laser-sharp focus on the quality of care, and on the voices and needs of children and young people. The lack of an all-Wales approach to commissioning care has resulted in authorities competing with one another, shifting commissioning practices in the favour of private providers.

I caveat this proposal, and so too does the children’s commissioner and other organisations, with the need to ensure that change is not to the detriment of children and young people. The rights of the child must be at the heart of any reform; no big bang and no unnecessary disruption.

In preparing for today’s motion, I heard from a representative organisation, which said, 'We need to stress that when we discuss value, it should begin with the value of the individual child and young person, and not simply in relation to financial stability or the system's capacity. This narrative relates to the care being a product'.

So, any steps to remove profit as a driver in the provision of care need to be done carefully, over time, and must have the needs and wishes of every individual child and young person front and centre as we move forward. But, it must be a fundamental overhaul.

In finishing, I hope our Senedd can send a signal to children and young people in care in Wales, wherever we are, that we hear them and we’re listening. Thank you—diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank the Member for raising this today and bringing up such important issues that do need to be raised and talked about in the Senedd. Ensuring high standards of care for our most vulnerable children should be something that we could all support in this Chamber.

When you look at the statistics on the impact of living in care on children and young adults, you understand why this is so important. Twenty-four per cent of the adult prison population have been in care, 11 per cent of homeless young people have been care leavers, 70 per cent of sex workers have been in care. You are approximately seven times more likely to die aged between 18 and 21 if you've been in care, compared to other young people of a similar age.

We owe it to these young people to help them break the cycle and make sure that the time they experience in care is positive, safe, in a nurturing environment, as the Member outlined. So, we do need better co-ordination of services to ensure young people are put at the centre of decision making, are close to home and have the right placement for their individual needs so their voices are heard. We should not let organisations, silos and arbitrary administration of boundaries harm the life chances of young people in Wales. I know that Monmouthshire County Council, for example, are doing some good work with their neighbours in Torfaen to ensure residential care is provided close to home. This sort of partnership working should be encouraged as best practice.

That sort of individual-centric approach is important, because no experience of care is the same as any other. For example, 40 per cent of children who come into care will do so for less than six months, but about half of the children in care have two or more episodes. So, Deputy Presiding Officer, it is important that we have the right sort of provision on hand to be able to manage this sort of individual need.

There are more than 7,000 young people being looked after by local authorities in Wales. We need more provision, not less, and that is why I am so confused about this proposal within the Bill to remove for-profit provision. This accounts for 80 per cent of the provision of residential care in Wales. If such a provider were providing a nurturing environment that cares for young people to the standards we have set out for them, and that is confirmed by the appropriate regulators, then why should we let their governance arrangements be a barrier to that? We seem to be punishing an industry because of failure by the regulations and the regulators to work effectively.

If private providers were to be removed, how will these services be replaced when we are short of such placements across Wales? Will there be discussions with partnerships, businesses and young people to make sure this is done in a sensitive and appropriate way? Will there be safeguards to ensure that vulnerable young people don't fall into the gaps? How will you guarantee that private providers will not be pulling out of their homes and investments early, further exacerbating the shortage of placements and perpetuating a crisis of your own making? These are all questions that are vital to be answered before big steps are taken.

It is a shame that this Bill does seem to be letting ideology getting in the way of what is doing best for young people, and it’s hugely disrespectful to the professionalism of those hard-working people in the sector who are doing a difficult and challenging job. The Member’s own briefing document highlights the lack of national framework to support a quality evaluation process. We should be focusing on that, ensuring consistency of approach.

I will wind up now. I can see you staring at me. The Welsh Conservatives have previously called for more focus on prevention rather than intervention, Deputy Presiding Officer. So, while you've raised a number of important issues here today, and I'm thankful to you for raising these, Jane Dodds, we sadly will not be able to agree with this motion and support this motion, because of your 2(c) in this proposal that you've put in here, which we do not agree with. Thank you.

Just to remind Members, it's three minutes in a 30-minute session, not five. I appreciate the difficulties, but we've got to keep to the timings as much as possible. Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to Jane Dodds for bringing this issue forward. I extend my support to her.

It's an issue that's been discussed over many years now, and the Government has accepted the need to commit to take action, with the aim of scrapping for-profit children's residential services. There are two elements to place under the microscope: children in residential care and children in foster care, and the profit element is relevant to both of those. Now, at the moment, the large providers of residential care and foster care provide a large percentage of the provision. Many of these providers are part of a framework that provides some comfort in terms of the quality of provision, but not everyone is even part of the framework, and that is a cause of great concern.

It's also a cause for concern when children are placed a long way from home because there aren't enough settings available locally. On the other hand, private placements are available locally, with children within those placements who are very far from their own homes. According to the statistics of the children's commissioner, 535 children receive residential care in Wales, with 340 of them outside the boundaries of their local authorities. Certainly, there should be a far clearer focus on keeping children closer to home in order to support those important links with their families and communities. Removing that element of generating profit from childcare would support that, and it would remove the need to fill care homes so that they are profitable.

There are other benefits to the proposed legislation too, including providing better pay and career paths to staff, which would, in turn, lead to better care for young people. There is one thing that's entirely clear in my mind: we need a better commissioning system, better planning and services that are not profit driven and competition driven. At the moment, some of the most vulnerable children are being let down by a system that is not fit for purpose.

I'd just like to congratulate Jane this afternoon for being selected to bring forward this legislative proposal. I, myself, a couple of weeks ago, was in a similar situation where it was me, so I can really appreciate the hard work that goes into it behind the scenes. So, well done on that front. 

I actually support a lot of what you're trying to achieve, really, because any moves to improve the regulation, monitoring and commissioning of children's care is to be welcomed—that's a fact. But it's also a sad fact that we have seen a 26 per cent increase in the numbers of looked-after children in Wales over the term of the last Senedd. Whilst we must do all we can to prevent children entering the care system in the first place, we do have to ensure that those who need to enter residential care are placed within their home county, or at the very least their home country. It's a tragedy that over 365 children were placed outside Wales last year. However, this is the stark reality.

Services for looked-after children are woefully underfunded, and funding shortfalls will be much worse as we emerge out of the pandemic. The WLGA have stated that local authorities are concerned about the demands that will be placed upon services as we emerge from the lockdown. There is also a backlog of court cases, which impacts upon services for looked-after children. Even if I agreed with your main point that profit-making providers should be removed from the sector, Wales could not afford it. I do, however, disagree with Jane. The private sector provides nearly eight in 10, or 80 per cent, of places in residential children's care; without the private sector, we would have hundreds of children without any care at all.

Our entire health and care system relies upon a good public and private partnership. So, without profit-making entities, we would have no GPs, no pharmacies or vaccines and no care homes. Without profits, we have no investment in services. As long as we have high-quality care, free at the point of delivery, it doesn't matter whether it's provided by a private company or local authority. I, therefore, cannot support the legislation proposal as it's currently formulated this afternoon. Thank you very much.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan.

Diolch. I'd like to start by thanking Jane for her legislative proposal, and to thank all those who've contributed to the debate today. I think we can proud as a Parliament that we take our responsibilities to children looked after by our social services departments so seriously and with such compassion, and I think that's been illustrated by the contributions today. The Bill proposal that Jane Dodds makes is in relation to the regulation, monitoring and commissioning of children's residential and foster care, and in relation to inpatient mental health services, learning disability and other neurodiversity services for children. I'm very grateful for the Member's interest in the care of those children who need our help the most.

The Government is abstaining from voting on this proposal, as per the convention, but I'm pleased to say, however, that we already have a strong legislative framework in place, which will help give effect to what Jane Dodds seeks to achieve. That framework includes the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, and their associated regulations, codes of practice and guidance. Contained with this legislation are duties in respect of social care's relationship with health, housing, education and others. We have already legislated to regulate the provision of care services. We place clear requirements on who can provide such services, how they are run and how often we require reports.

In relation to commissioning, our social services and well-being Act 2014 places a duty on local authorities to source and make placements for looked-after children. To this end, all of our local authorities are members of the Children's Commissioning Consortium Cymru, known as the 4Cs. This centralised function, developed by local authorities, simplifies and streamlines the commissioning process within the context of quality and improving outcomes for children, and is much valued by the commissioners and providers that use it.

To further strengthen these arrangements, I'm pleased to say we have published our code of practice about market stability reports. This is a new duty on local authorities and health boards within a regional partnership board area to produce sufficiency assessments related to care and support. These reports are designed to promote stable and resilient services for children and adult social care across each region of Wales, particularly with respect to regulated services such as care home accommodation. The reports will also address issues such as trends in supply and demand, sustainability, commissioning practices, and enable better informed decision making about services.

To support individuals with learning disabilities, this month, we are publishing a statutory code of practice on the delivery of autism services to be implemented from September this year. The code is accompanied by guidance to provide clarity on service provision for autistic people and their parents and carers. Important duties are placed on local authorities and health boards in four key areas: assessment and diagnosis, health and social care services, awareness training, and planning, monitoring and stakeholder involvement.

But let me assure you that although we already have much legislation in place, in taking forward our Government commitments this term, we'll be exploring all the legislative options available to us. We will strengthen existing legislation where needed, such as our work to enhance corporate parenting responsibilities across the public sector.

Now, on Jane Dodds's final point in the motion, and the focus of her speech and much of the focus of the debate here today, I'm sure Members will be aware of the Government's manifesto and of its programme for government where it commits very clearly to eliminating private profit from the care of looked-after children during this Senedd term. Eliminating profit making from the care of looked-after children is a high priority for this Government. We believe that public care should mean that children are cared for by local authorities or other not-for-profit providers, where social values and the best interest of and outcomes for children are the overriding motives.

We know from children and young people themselves that they feel exploited by large private organisations that are able to make a profit from their lived experience of being in care, and I'm not criticising those organisations, I've just listened to children—listened to children and listened to what they say. I think it would be useful if Members in the Chamber also listen to what they say, because they make a very powerful case for their feelings about this matter. The children's commissioner and Voices from Care have also campaigned on the issue, and they and the children they represent can be pleased that we are taking action. And I note what Laura said: that we would do this carefully, we would do it over the lifetime of a parliament, which is five years, we would do it in partnership with the voluntary sector, with the not-for-profit sector, we would draw the private sector in to discuss what our plans were. So, it is certainly something that we would undertake very carefully.

The social services and well-being Act contains provisions that are designed to promote the use of social enterprises, co-operatives and user-led services, and we want to see more of this type of provision for looked-after children in Wales. That's one of the reasons why we consulted on our 'Rebalancing care and support' White Paper. Members will recall I provided an overview of the responses to this consultation last week. We are committed to improving the commissioning of care by developing a national framework focused on outcomes and social value. We know we have significant work to do with a wide range of stakeholders and other interests, and we look forward to working with those who want to help us deliver our radical and ambitious plans for social care in Wales. I am determined that we achieve our ambition to remove profit from care, because it is the right thing to do. 

And I just want to close with a few words about this Government's approach to children and young people in Wales. I want to assure the Chamber that this Government is working for them. We are clear in our recognition of children and young people as citizens and right holders. We want to improve the experience of childhood and young adult life here and to enable them to live the kinds of lives they want and are capable of. So, thank you, Jane, for bringing this before the Senedd. Diolch. 

No Members have indicated that they wish to make an intervention. I call on Jane Dodds to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. And thank you to everyone who has spoken on this subject. 

Thank you very much to you all—those of you who spoke on this issue. Thank you to Laura Anne, to Gareth and to Siân as well. I'm very grateful to you. And I'd also like to thank those organisations that I spoke to who contributed towards my thinking here. Thank you also to the Deputy Minister as well for your response. 

I think I just really need to make this one thing clear—two things, really, actually; I'm cheating here. The first is: this is not me saying this. This is children and young people who are asking for this. The second is that I think there may be some confusion, and maybe it's the way we've presented this. This is not about removing the private organisations. This is about saying that the profit that they make needs to go back into caring for the children and young people who I believe they passionately do care for. We don't want that money to go to shareholders. It's very simple. You do not make a profit from vulnerable children. 

I've had a career in child protection—27 years of it—and I do recognise the breadth and complexity of the matter that we've discussed here this afternoon. This is a complex issue and time is of the essence, because these are the lives of children and young people. The Children's Commissioner for Wales has been calling for this since 2017, and in her 2020 annual report, stated to date that no significant leadership had been shown by the Welsh Government on this matter. But I'm pleased to hear that it's now being taken forward. Now is the time to take action quickly.

The independent care review—back to Scotland—was clear that children should not have to wait until the end of a traditional government review for change. And I would strongly encourage the Government to adopt that principle. I note that work will be ongoing throughout the summer and autumn, but we must see some short-term action and changes right now, whether that's commissioning, funding or support for local authorities to begin the process of increasing public and third sector provision until a point at which legislation could be brought forward that directs profits into care and not into the pockets of shareholders. 

I also recognise concerns from Members about the current provision in the private sector, and the concerns about any substantial change. I wholeheartedly agree that we cannot just tear out that provision. It must be done carefully and sensitively as we move towards a system that puts every penny towards the care and needs of children and young people.

I finish with just this: many young people live in complex situations and have complex histories. And I just want to finish with the words of 13-year-old Phoebe, 'I want to stay until hopefully the sun comes out and gives me a nice life.' Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.]

Yes, I see there are. 

I will defer voting on the motion until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.