We now move to the short debate. 

I call on Alun Davies to speak to the topic he has chosen.

If you are leaving the Chamber, please do so quietly. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm grateful to you for allowing this short debate. Tom Giffard has asked for a minute of my time this afternoon, so I will ensure that I conclude my remarks in time for him to be able to speak. 

Levelling up is one of those things in politics that we'd never heard of a few years ago, and now we never hear the end of today. One of the many parts of the UK Government's levelling-up process is something that is constantly discussed, but never defined. And I think for many of us—. I find myself in the unhappy situation possibly today of having been around for long enough to remember these things turning up on more than one occasion. And one of the things that I find most disappointing about the United Kingdom Government's approach to its overall levelling-up agenda is that it doesn't define any targets, it doesn't define any objectives and it doesn't allow any accountability. I was lucky enough to be a European programmes Minister in the Welsh Government between 2011 and 2013, and that period covered the renegotiation of the EU budget at that time. It also covered the new legislation on structural funds. 

The Welsh Government and the people of Wales were involved in that process. They were involved in that process because it was done in public, it was done with accountability and democracy and scrutiny and transparency. The legislation was passed in public. The budget was debated in public. The Welsh Government were involved in defining the United Kingdom's position on all of those matters. There were secondments between the Welsh Government and the UK Government to enable the expertise of the Welsh Government to be used to its best ability to inform what the UK Government's position was at that time. I attended European Councils and we debated those matters in this Chamber on a number of occasions. 

All of those different aspects underpinned a policy approach. None of those things are true today about a levelling-up agenda—none of those things are true today. There's no transparency. We don't know what the objectives are of the United Kingdom Government. They haven't published any targets, they haven't published a timescale, they've missed every consultation that they've promised, and there's been no accountability of any description at all. It is a lesson in how not to make policy and how not to involve people. And I say that as an introduction because it is important that we don't only make those points in relation to the United Kingdom Government, but we ensure that the Welsh Government doesn't repeat those errors and those mistakes as well. It is always important to learn from history rather than to repeat the mistakes of history. 

And in my time here, I've seen a number of different initiatives launched for our own levelling-up agenda in the Valleys of south Wales. I remember the One Wales Government, where Leighton  Andrews and then Jocelyn Davies worked exceptionally hard, both Ministers, in order to deliver agendas for the Heads of the Valleys and for the Valleys as a whole. I then remember the work that was done in order to deliver other programmes in the Government elected in 2011, and, as many Members will remember, I was appointed by Carwyn Jones to lead the Valleys taskforce, which was appointed to lead this work after the 2016 election. And as I look back over that period of time, I'm thinking of the lessons that we should be learning, as a Welsh Government and as a Parliament. And what are those lessons?

There's a lesson in consistency of personnel, of Ministers. There have been too many Ministers involved over too short a period of time, and I hope that the Minister that is in his place this afternoon will be in his place for many afternoons and will be able to drive forward a policy agenda that has consistency over time. The irony is, considering the debate that we've just had on climate, that the only consistency of policy that has been delivered in the Valleys has been the dualling of the A465. It's the only consistent policy that has been pursued over the last decade, and difficulties have been involved, but it's been pursued by Ministers and successive Ministers have ensured that the policy has been and is being delivered. But we have not had a consistency of policy, and we have not had a consistency of approach, and we have not had a consistency of personnel, and that has weakened our ability to deliver for the Valleys.

We have not also ensured that we've had the ambitions and timescales and targets agreed at all times, and we have not always—and this is the key point I would like to make in my comments this afternoon—had sufficient focus on delivery. I well remember the conversation I had with Carwyn Jones when he was appointing me to lead the Valleys taskforce. He said, 'I want you to lead the Valleys taskforce.' There was no smoke and mirrors there. He said, 'You've no budget and no department; I want you to bring people together in order to deliver for the Valleys of south Wales.' I didn't have a budget in order to rent a meeting space or to provide tea or coffee. What we had to do was to persuade Ministers—and the Minister himself will recognise how difficult this can be—to essentially lend me officials, to lend me budgets and to lend me a political commitment. And that was one of the most difficult things you can ask anybody to do in Government, because officials—. There's a lot of nonsense talked about the civil service. The civil service is a fantastic machine and has very many talented people, but it works in a hierarchical fashion; it works towards a Minister. And when you're asking an official to work to another Minister it doesn't work, and we found it very, very difficult.

But we set out our ambitions and I was very clear, and this followed the vote on Brexit—and I think the vote on Brexit in the Valleys of south Wales had far more to do with this place than it had to do with Brussels; it had far more to do with failures here and in London than it had to do with failures in Brussels, so I think we need to recognise that. And one of the things that I wanted to do was to ensure that we did have a level of accountability, and Members here will remember that I came to this Chamber and set out targets, set out objectives, set out timescales that we would meet over that four- or five-year period. I'm disappointed that the previous Government didn't report on those matters. They should have done so. We gave our word to the people in these communities that we would deliver these things over the period of five years. We haven't reported on what we have done, and we need to be able to do that.

We need to be able to ensure that the Tech Valleys programme—which I'm grateful for the Minister's time this week, that we've discussed—in my own constituency is delivered. We made a solemn promise to the people of Blaenau Gwent that we would deliver that programme, and I well remember the announcement that Ken Skates made alongside me in Ebbw Vale on that. We made a promise, and we need to deliver on that and we need to set out how that will happen. We also need—and this is the opportunity I'd like the Minister to take, perhaps not this afternoon, but over the coming weeks at the beginning of this Senedd—to set out what we will deliver over the next five years. 

One of the lessons I believe we need to learn is that it is more important to invest in places that can act as a catalyst for change than to say that everybody has something, which, at the end of the day, is inadequate. I was very, very clear, in setting out the ambitions for the Valleys taskforce, that we have—. I think it turned into seven hubs, and I remember the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr was very anxious that we have eight or nine hubs, covering those Valleys in his constituency, and who can blame him? I would've done exactly the same. But we set out that series of hubs, and I'd like to understand what exactly has happened as a consequence of that policy. 

Also—and this is where I have a very great personal disappointment—we haven't delivered the regional park. It was, I felt, a motivating concept that brought people together, and I remember talking to people in different parts of the Valleys about what we were able to do through the regional park, and I would want to see that delivered, Minister. I believe that it's something that could galvanise change across south Wales, so that we're not just delivering economic growth in our communities, which we need to do, but we're also investing in the future of communities and people and places. I think, sometimes, we talk about economic development simply in terms of numbers, but we have to talk in terms of people and places as well. And the Valleys park was a means of doing that. And the work that the Member for Ogmore has undertaken in different places has really been a template for that.

But let me say this in concluding my remarks: the lesson I learned throughout this period and looking back is that, whatever the ambition and the sincerity of that ambition and the articulation of the vision, it will never be delivered unless you have the means of doing so. And this is the burden of my remarks this afternoon. We have never created the delivery vehicle that can deliver radical and lasting and consistent change; we have created a plethora of committees, a confusion of commissions, and we've created the opportunity for people to talk. What we have to do is to get to work in delivering, and I've outlined—. And the Minister will be aware of my views on the creation of a Valleys development agency, involving communities, local government, businesses and Welsh Government coming together, as they've done in the highlands and islands and had a real impact in different parts of Scotland.

I believe that we will continue to repeat our mistakes unless we create the means and the mechanism to deliver. And this is one of the things that I hope the Minister will consider. We've seen the Cardiff city region over the last few years, which hasn't delivered any meaningful investment in the Heads of the Valleys; we've had the investment in Zip World in Hirwaun, but we haven't had any other meaningful investment. We haven't seen a jobs plan to take advantage of the work on the A465 dualling; we haven't seen the economic strategy that can underpin that, and that's one of the things I tried to establish in office, and it hasn't been pursued since I left office. What we need to be able to do, Minister, is to create the means of delivery—the means of delivery and the capacity to deliver. We know that we have some fantastic people working in local government. We have some great officials working in Welsh Government. We have some fantastic local government leaders across different parts of the Valleys. But what we don't have is the capacity in those institutions to deliver lasting change at the scale at which we need to do so.

And that means change. It means changing our approach, challenging ourselves, asking ourselves tough questions and being honest in the way that I've tried to be honest this afternoon, and then taking decisions with which we sometimes feel uncomfortable. I know that the Welsh Government has, at different times, not supported an agency-based approach. I hope that Welsh Government will look hard at what the future holds and will look hard at what we've done and achieved in the past and look hard at what we can achieve together in the future. Thank you.

Thank you, Alun, for bringing this debate to the Chamber today. I think it's a very important debate and I'm really grateful to you for giving me some time to speak.

One of the key lessons that I drew from your remarks was that you are right to say, 'Okay, levelling up is a new political buzzword,' if you like, but it is not just the responsibility of the UK Government. The UK Government absolutely has to play a role, but I think that all levels of government, and the private sector as well, have a role to play.

To that end, I wanted to use my remarks today to specifically hone in on my experience as a local councillor in Bridgend, and specifically the application of the LDP process and how that is failing its Valleys communities. Because, in my mind, that is a case study in and of itself. So, to that end, I will first declare my interest in this matter as a current councillor at Bridgend County Borough Council.

I see that the Member for Ogmore is here, and so I won’t need to explain the geography of Bridgend. But, for those who don't know, you have got your three main valleys in the north of the constituency—the Ogmore, Llynfi and Garw valleys—and your larger towns in the south. But, unfortunately, looking at that planning process, and the LDP process in Bridgend, it shows through a prism of a real tale of two halves.

I will give you an example: in Bridgend council's 2018-33 LDP, just 14 per cent of the homes planned to be built are in those Valleys areas, or the Valleys gateway area. Or, to put it another way, just 1,360 of the 9,200 homes planned are situated in those communities. The question that we need to ask ourselves is, 'Why?' Why is our LDP process in Bridgend—and presumably elsewhere—failing our Valleys communities?

There are, of course, some places in Bridgend with significant brownfield land that could be built on in these Valleys communities. I have had these discussions with officers and, in the past, they have told me that these areas just aren't as attractive to developers. But, surely, that's the tail wagging the dog. We need to ensure that houses are being built where they will do the most public good— [Interruption.]—rather than just flood other communities because they are more attractive. [Interruption.]

[Inaudible.]—so far.

I apologise. I will wrap up soon. Our planning policies should benefit our communities, not our developers. One of Bridgend council's own reports says:

'transport capacity issues currently preclude additional significant development within this area at present'.

Because we are not investing in the Valleys communities, they are considered less attractive to live in. But then, we are not fixing that additional housing because of the lack of transport capacity. It's a vicious cycle.

If we are going to level up the Valleys, we can't allow this to continue. We need a planning system that works for all of our communities and, yes, make them more attractive to live in by further investment from all tiers of Government, and encouraging local authorities not only to take the easy option when it comes to meeting housing targets, but the ones with the biggest long-term benefit to our communities too.

I call on the Minister for Economy to reply to the debate. Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I begin by thanking Alun Davies for bringing forward this debate today? It's a genuinely interesting and timely discussion in a number of ways. I want to thank both Members for their thoughtful contributions. Most of my remarks will be about the Heads of the Valleys area, of course, because of where Alun Davies is from, as he regularly reminds us, and it has been a pleasure to hear him talk about the long history, both when I've been in Blaenau Gwent, as well as down here.

But, I would say to Tom Giffard and his contribution, if we are genuinely going to look to have a system where we can deliberately direct investment towards less advantaged areas, then there are real challenges in the approach that is coming, not just from levelling up, but on subsidy control and the Subsidy Control Bill going through the UK Parliament, which the Members here will want to take an interest in. Because if that does proceed on the current basis, it makes it much, much harder to invest in those less advantaged areas. Far from seeing a process where it is easier and more attractive to invest in those least well-off areas, we will find it even more difficult to do so. It's part of the challenge that we see, which Alun Davies referred to, about the broad label of 'levelling up' that no-one is going to disagree with, in essence, and yet the reality of the policy choices that are being made. I will come later on to a bit more about levelling up.

The reality is that much of the work that we have done in supporting the Heads of the Valleys, in particular, has been possible as a result of the work of the Welsh Government and partners in the third sector, higher education, the private sector and, of course, the voluntary sector, to deliver European structural funds. It has made a real difference. To put that in context, current EU funding programmes have helped to create 3,600 jobs and supported more than 2,000 businesses and helped almost 9,000 people into work, just in the Heads of the Valleys area.

It is because of this success that we have spent considerable time designing, with key Welsh partners, a framework for investment based on evidence and agreement, with clear priorities for Wales. This is what a Team Wales approach looks like, and we're looking to build on that and the work we're doing now, together with work that the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development are doing, so there's an honest broker to look at the international evidence of how we can have a successful approach to regional economic development.

During my statement last month on UK plans for replacement EU funding and the broad levelling-up agenda, I shared not just my concerns, but those of other devolved national Governments in the UK, parliaments, committees and leading experts. It still remains the case that the UK Government approach to date is incoherent, chaotic, has no considerable or coherent economic rationale, and the current approach lacks agreement or insight. If it continues on this journey, it will fail to deliver the outcomes that our communities deserve. And I don’t just mean here for Wales either because the truth is that’s not just my view that people will be familiar with, but if you were to have this conversation with local government, the higher education sector, or the third sector in Scotland or England as well as here in Wales, there would be a broadly similar view. The challenge is to get through that confusion and get to a framework that really could deliver the sort of benefits that all Governments of different shades across the UK could sign up to and agree.

My predecessor and I have requested meetings with UK Ministers leading on this area to discuss those concerns and to want to reach agreement for a better way forward. The meetings are well overdue, given it’s been over 18 months since Brexit. We know that, sadly, the community renewal fund and the levelling-up fund have not seen a single decision made from the pilots that have been announced. Not a single determination on those pilots. We’re at the point where local authorities right across the UK won’t be able to spend that money successfully within this calendar year, and that’s a real challenge. We’re losing a year of time and money and, actually, the way things are, we’ll lose more time into the next year, because I think it’ll be very challenging for any Government to deliver a proper framework that will be ready and available for implementation within the next year.

So, we do now expect that we might have a high-level policy framework for the shared prosperity fund to be announced at the spending review later this month. And I say again that I hope that the new Secretary of State, Michael Gove, will take a different approach from his predecessors, and generally work with us to deliver UK-wide funds that will deliver better value for money, better outcomes, and won’t put at risk the delivery of national schemes like Business Wales, apprenticeships and the development bank. The current approach also puts at risk that vital funding for a wide range of other partners, not just local government, which are essential for the growth in our communities, but as I said, the third sector, business, and higher and further education too.

I think it was helpful that Alun Davies highlighted his former role as a Minister with responsibility for European programmes, not just the long-standing role that this institution and the Welsh Government have had in making those choices with and for Wales, but the reality that we did learn lessons on what to do. We moved away from an approach that was about very small projects, to looking at bigger, more strategic projects. And yet, the current piloting for both the levelling-up fund and community renewal fund look to deliberately move away from that to have a much smaller, much more localised approach that won’t allow regional or nationally significant projects to come forward. So, there is a lot for us to learn about what we did well, as well as what we don’t think has worked, and that’s part of the challenge the Member set out for the Welsh Government.

But despite all of the challenges we face in the headwinds, in Wales we are definitely most successful when we work together in developing solutions, and I was pleased to hear Alun Davies point out the talent and the commitment that exist within the Welsh Government and local authorities and indeed in the private sector too. And it’s important that we continue to work in partnership with those partners—so, business, trade unions, local government, the third sector and the Welsh Government. We’ve all had conversations, not just in the last week or so, where they’ve been relatively intense, but actually since I’ve been a Minister and before. In many ways, the pandemic has brought us even closer together, not just for the difficult business of survival, but the opportunities for recovery and renewal.

Now, the Member has pointed out that the Valleys taskforce has come to an end, but Dawn Bowden and I are working to embed the work of the taskforce in our long-term plans within the Government as well as with the partners I’ve mentioned. And there is no denying that more needs to be done, and the challenge that the Member puts is a fair one about how we make a difference: rather than talking about what we want to do, what does that mean for people and communities on the ground? And it does require Ministers and partners to work more closely together, not just with continued dedication, but to remember that this is about improving outcomes. And I recognise some of the Member's challenge about working on cross-Government reviews or projects. I had some of that experience in my first Government role, and there was a challenge in getting Ministers to work together towards a shared objective that the First Minister said was a priority for the Government at the time. So, there is challenge here, but a lot of that is about the different levers that we have, the commitment of Ministers, and the ability to use money in the same direction to achieve objectives.

But we are clear in our ambition for an economic recovery that builds a fairer, greener and more prosperous Wales. And the Member was right to highlight the investment in the Tech Valleys programme, which is a part of that vision, and it is gaining traction; it's seeing more results. I was recently at the Thales facility, and others, and the Member noticed that I was there. I was very pleased to have his endorsement of my visit to his constituency. But to see what then happens to build on that, not just for the one project, but for the opportunities for other businesses, and the point the Member makes about having hubs to draw people together in activity.

And in the same leaf, the First Minister also met with representatives from CiNER Glass Limited, who are looking to create a significant employment opportunity, again within Blaenau Gwent. And it's true, of course, they'll be physically based in Blaenau Gwent, but the travel-to-work area means there'll be people from outside the county borough, and the Member's constituency, who we would expect to be employed there. Now, that will not only bring the jobs to the area, it will look to use technology to help meet the Welsh Government's own climate change targets and will also be an investment in the circular economy.

On Monday this week I met with chief executives and political leaders from the five local authorities who make up the Heads of the Valleys area to discuss our shared ambition and how we together translate those into joint priorities for action. And the meeting was a positive one; it hasn't always been the case. If you think about 10 years ago, getting five local authorities and the Government in the same room together to agree on a project, and to agree that we are going to use our respective levers to do something positive—and again, that doesn't mean to say those conversations never happened, but I think we are now in a better place to see that translate into reality, which is the main point the Member makes: not just objectives, but then, will we deliver on the outcomes that we look to set ourselves as well?

So, this is about also seizing the opportunity to re-energise and redesign many of our town centres and high streets across the Valleys, and the good news is that whilst we recognise there's a lot to challenge, there are also opportunities of where that's already been done successfully. There are opportunities to learn from what has already worked. And we recognise town centres as an intersection in human life and activity, and the need to secure long-term sustainability and the importance of a sense of place for where people live in having a thriving town centre or high street.

So, our 'town centre first' approach is embedded within our planning framework, 'Future Wales', and it means town centres should be the first consideration for all decisions on the location of workplaces and services. It's something I took seriously in my former role as a health Minister: part of the reason why we looked to invest in high-street optometry and pharmacy. And so, the Transforming Towns programme is providing £136 million to support the economic and social recovery of town centres and cities in Wales, with £3 million of Transforming Towns funding being approved for the Member's constituency alone, supporting over £8 million of investment across the county. However, we recognise that town centres face many challenges that have been exacerbated by the pandemic.

Now, I note what the Member had to say about the regional park, and the point of investing in people and place and not just seeing success in terms of job numbers but, actually, whether it's a good place to live. Are people not just proud of where they are from, but do people want to stay there? Can you be successful in that place and not feel the need to move out and move on? So, the Valleys regional park is still something very much that we want to see become successful, and I know the Member will want to keep on talking with me and my deputy about that.

The growing use of digital technology and more flexible working opens up the opportunity for us to put new footfall and energy back into the hearts of many smaller Valleys communities. That's why this Government will continue to invest in and support co-working hub pilots across a number of Valleys communities.

And I recognise what the Member had to say about Zip World Tower in Hirwaun and the importance of tourism. Visit Wales has worked hard on promoting the Valleys, and 60 per cent of the locations featured within Visit Wales's contents are within the Valleys area. And I should say that I visited Zip World, and it was—my note says that I should be delighted; I was actually rather exhilarated in coming down, and it was a great day out, and I'd happily go again with my son. And so, there's the point there about wanting to go back again and again and again. I can honestly say that, during the difficult business of looking to get myself and other people re-elected—some elected for the first time—I've seen more of Valleys communities and recognise that there is real potential. I too want to see more people enjoying that as a regular part of life as well.

I want to finish by recognising that there are strengths and opportunities for us to build on. There are definitely challenges to recognise and tackle for our local economies to be at the heart of our approach to place-based economic renewal. I look forward to doing so by working with the Member and with the combination of challenge and support that he will bring in doing so, together with other Valleys representatives. So, the conversation is not finished in terms of where we are today; there are many more points for us to make decisions on to make a real difference. And our focus must and will be on the outcomes and how we make a practical difference with and for the people the Member represents and it's my privilege to serve too. 

Thank you, Minister. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you, all.

The meeting ended at 17:46.