5. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: The Constitutional Commission

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:25 pm on 19 October 2021.

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Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative 4:25, 19 October 2021

Can I thank you for your statement, Minister? It is disappointing that it was trailed in the media for such a long period before it was made to Members of the Senedd, but I suppose that’s just what we’re getting used to here under the current Welsh Government.

I think we’ve put on record the fact that we will participate in this commission. We’ve made that quite clear. We think it’s important to have the voice of unionism at the table, and the voice of the centre-right at the table. But I do have to say that I was quite surprised to see that independence is one of the things that you have tasked this commission with considering, because we all know, and it’s been emphasised by your own First Minister, that independence was very much on the ballot paper at the recent Senedd elections, because it was front and centre of the Plaid Cymru campaign, and it was overwhelmingly rejected. In fact, the Plaid Cymru share of the vote actually went down. So, why on earth the commission should be tasked with looking at independence and considering independence is beyond me, especially when the Welsh Government is constantly bleating on about not having sufficient resources to be able to do the real work that people want you to get on with, which is to sort out the backlog in our NHS, get to grips with the problems in our economy, and deliver the catch-up education that young people across Wales desperately need.

Just in terms of the appointment of the co-chairs, I very much welcome the appointment of Rowan Williams. I think that that’s a very sound appointment. But some people, of course, will question the appointment of Laura McAllister. They will question her appointment because, of course, she’s a former Plaid Cymru candidate in two parliamentary elections. They will question whether she already has a view on these matters, and whether she’s entirely independent in the way that she’s able to organise this particular commission’s business. So, I would ask you, Minister: why is it that you decided that Laura McAllister was the appropriate co-chair to appoint alongside Rowan Williams, given her history as a Plaid Cymru candidate? I think it’s a serious question that people are beginning to ask.

I think it’s also disappointing, really, that there hasn’t been proper engagement with the UK Government in relation to the establishment of this commission, because we all know that simply having a unilateral report produced by this particular commission, which is just focusing on Wales, isn’t actually going to deal with the wider issue of constitutional reform across the UK, because that can only be conducted by a UK Government in partnership with other Governments across the United Kingdom. So, why do you feel that it’s a priority to get under way with this work? Why not have further conversations with the UK Government to be able to determine a way forward on a four-nation basis?

I've noted the timetable for the work of this commission seems very long. Why is it two years? Why do you think the commission needs two years to come to its final conclusions? What are the implications of that in terms of the costs associated with this commission? Can you tell us what the costs are that you’ve budgeted for within your finite resources as a Welsh Government? Are the independent members going to be paid? Are the co-chairs going to be paid? If so, what is their remuneration? I think that these are important questions that we need to know and that should be shared in the public domain.

You’ve, obviously, told us a little bit about the terms of reference, and I note that there was a statement that was issued this afternoon while we were in the Chamber. It's a good job I check my e-mails, Llywydd, or else I wouldn’t have been able to see it. I can see that the terms of reference are two simple broad objectives. In fact, they’re so broad that it wouldn’t surprise me if this commission took 20 years to come up with its recommendations. I would ask whether there’s any further detail that you can give us in terms of the terms of reference or whether that is simply it, those two broad objectives:

'To consider and develop options for fundamental reform of the constitutional structures of the United Kingdom, in which Wales remains an integral part;' and,

'To consider and develop all progressive principal options'.

What does that mean? What does a 'progressive principal option' mean 'to strengthen Welsh democracy'? Does that mean, given that all things are on the table, that you’ll be considering the abolition of the Senedd? That’s not something we would advocate, but, obviously, that’s an option that could be considered as part of the all-things-on-the-table comment that I’ve heard made by one of the co-chairs so far.

You've referred to the panel of experts and you've said that you will tell us more about who those experts are. Can I ask you what consideration is being given to their already predeclared views when you're actually making appointments to that panel of experts, and indeed the other independent members that you're still yet to appoint?

I can see that my time is up. I have a couple more questions if I may, Llywydd; it is an important issue. One of the challenges I think that we have here in Wales is that we have to take the public with us on any journey going forward. The public have been persuaded of the desire to have a Parliament that is strong, that has law-making powers in Wales, and many of us campaigned in referendums for that. Indeed, in the last referendum, I campaigned heavily for a powerful Senedd with law-making powers. But if you're talking about taking things further in terms of this independence route, then I'm afraid that I can see this impacting support for our Senedd in a detrimental way. Has that been considered by the Welsh Government? Because I fear that it is something that could seriously undermine this Senedd and the support for it.