We have reached the statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution on the constitutional commission. I call on the Minister to make his statement. Mick Antoniw.

Thanks, Llywydd. Llywydd, before the summer recess, I made a statement to Members setting out in more detail the plans for an independent commission on the constitutional future of Wales. Today, I am able to share with you the progress that we have made since then, and in particular in making appointments to the independent commission and publishing the broad objectives.

Llywydd, before the summer recess, I made a statement to Members setting out in more detail the plans for an independent commission on the constitutional future of Wales. And today, I am able to continue sharing with you the progress that we have made since then, and in particular regarding appointments to the independent commission and publication of the broad objectives.

Llywydd, the Welsh Government believes that our union of four nations is under pressure like never before and that there is now an urgent need for reform. In order to achieve this, we have consistently endeavoured to engage with the United Kingdom Government constructively. For our part, as Members will know, we have repeatedly attempted to stimulate debate about a viable future for the United Kingdom.

In 2017, we published 'Brexit and Devolution', which set out our proposals for a positive and creative response to the constitutional implications of EU exit. And in 2019, 'Reforming our Union' set out our 20 propositions for the future governance of the UK, and we published an updated version earlier this year. However, their only response seems to be to try to assert a kind of muscular unionism, seeking more control from the centre, encroaching onto matters of devolved competence and demonstrating its respect for our Senedd through breaches of the Sewel convention and an undermining of the devolution settlement and Welsh democracy.

These issues are not about some bland constitutional debate between political parties or Governments, but they go to the heart of our democracy, and in our view, the case for constitutional reform is rooted in the empowerment of the people of Wales, enabling decisions that have impact on the well-being of our communities and nation to be taken as close to people as possible. The establishment of the independent commission is the next step in that debate. The time is right for a serious national conversation in Wales about the options for our future.

Llywydd, the first broad objective of the independent commission will be to consider and develop durable options for fundamental reform of the constitutional structures of the United Kingdom. We want the independent commission to initiate a conversation with the people of Wales about what those options might be.

Our union is under greater threat today than at any time, and this cannot be ignored: from the current Conservative UK Government and its repeated attempts to undermine devolution, to renewed calls for English devolution, to the pressure for a second independence referendum in Scotland, and the ongoing discussions about the constitutional future of Northern Ireland. So, the independent commission's second broad objective will be to consider and develop all progressive principal options to strengthen Welsh democracy and deliver improvements for the people of Wales.

Now, we’re under no illusions about the size of the task facing the independent commission. This is a conversation that is bigger than party political differences. To be a meaningful consideration of the views of all of Wales, the commission needs to be independent of Government and able to consider the spectrum of views and experiences. The commission will be supported by the Welsh Government and able to access Welsh Government resources to carry out their work, but the commission chairs and members will set their own direction.

I'm very pleased to tell the Senedd formally of the well-heralded announcement earlier today, that we have secured two people of the highest calibre to lead this work as co-chairs of the commission: Dr Rowan Williams and Professor Laura McAllister. Laura McAllister is a Welsh academic, former international footballer and senior sports administrator. She is currently professor of public policy and the governance of Wales at the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University. She is well renowned as a political analyst and commentator, and has worked with the Welsh Government and the Senedd on numerous projects for reform to our organisations. 

Dr Rowan Williams, former Archbishop of Canterbury, is a distinguished academic and theologian with a strong commitment to social justice. Their backgrounds and experiences make for a powerful combination, able to bring consensus while challenging all involved to think creatively about our constitutional future. We've had a number of very productive meetings with the co-chairs about the independent commission, and I am looking forward to seeing the leadership that they will bring to this work.

I want to thank all parties in this room for their positive engagement and constructive support in establishing the independent commission. I am grateful for the patience and dedication shown by all involved. I am satisfied that the broad objectives strike the right balance between directing the work of the independent commission, and giving them the freedom to develop recommendations independently of Government, and their ability to engage freely and openly with all interested parties.

The commission is due to start work next month. We are making good progress in appointing members to the independent commission, and I intend to announce the remaining members later this month or early in the following month. The independent commission will also be able to commission research, analysis and expert opinion through a panel of experts established for this purpose. I will make further statements to the Senedd on the independent commission's progress of engagement, and on the establishment of the expert panel.

We anticipate an interim report from the independent commission by the end of 2022. The independent commission should produce the full report with recommendations by the end of 2023. The broad objectives will be available on the independent commission's webpage.

This is a vitally important initiative. It is about the future of Wales and the well-being and prosperity of the people of Wales and future generations. I'm sure that we all want to see it succeed, and I look forward to a period of constructive cross-party work and engagement throughout Wales to deliver a strong report with bold recommendations. I will update the Senedd again after the independent commission members have been appointed, and after the first meeting of the independent commission. Diolch, Llywydd.

Can I thank you for your statement, Minister? It is disappointing that it was trailed in the media for such a long period before it was made to Members of the Senedd, but I suppose that’s just what we’re getting used to here under the current Welsh Government.

I think we’ve put on record the fact that we will participate in this commission. We’ve made that quite clear. We think it’s important to have the voice of unionism at the table, and the voice of the centre-right at the table. But I do have to say that I was quite surprised to see that independence is one of the things that you have tasked this commission with considering, because we all know, and it’s been emphasised by your own First Minister, that independence was very much on the ballot paper at the recent Senedd elections, because it was front and centre of the Plaid Cymru campaign, and it was overwhelmingly rejected. In fact, the Plaid Cymru share of the vote actually went down. So, why on earth the commission should be tasked with looking at independence and considering independence is beyond me, especially when the Welsh Government is constantly bleating on about not having sufficient resources to be able to do the real work that people want you to get on with, which is to sort out the backlog in our NHS, get to grips with the problems in our economy, and deliver the catch-up education that young people across Wales desperately need.

Just in terms of the appointment of the co-chairs, I very much welcome the appointment of Rowan Williams. I think that that’s a very sound appointment. But some people, of course, will question the appointment of Laura McAllister. They will question her appointment because, of course, she’s a former Plaid Cymru candidate in two parliamentary elections. They will question whether she already has a view on these matters, and whether she’s entirely independent in the way that she’s able to organise this particular commission’s business. So, I would ask you, Minister: why is it that you decided that Laura McAllister was the appropriate co-chair to appoint alongside Rowan Williams, given her history as a Plaid Cymru candidate? I think it’s a serious question that people are beginning to ask.

I think it’s also disappointing, really, that there hasn’t been proper engagement with the UK Government in relation to the establishment of this commission, because we all know that simply having a unilateral report produced by this particular commission, which is just focusing on Wales, isn’t actually going to deal with the wider issue of constitutional reform across the UK, because that can only be conducted by a UK Government in partnership with other Governments across the United Kingdom. So, why do you feel that it’s a priority to get under way with this work? Why not have further conversations with the UK Government to be able to determine a way forward on a four-nation basis?

I've noted the timetable for the work of this commission seems very long. Why is it two years? Why do you think the commission needs two years to come to its final conclusions? What are the implications of that in terms of the costs associated with this commission? Can you tell us what the costs are that you’ve budgeted for within your finite resources as a Welsh Government? Are the independent members going to be paid? Are the co-chairs going to be paid? If so, what is their remuneration? I think that these are important questions that we need to know and that should be shared in the public domain.

You’ve, obviously, told us a little bit about the terms of reference, and I note that there was a statement that was issued this afternoon while we were in the Chamber. It's a good job I check my e-mails, Llywydd, or else I wouldn’t have been able to see it. I can see that the terms of reference are two simple broad objectives. In fact, they’re so broad that it wouldn’t surprise me if this commission took 20 years to come up with its recommendations. I would ask whether there’s any further detail that you can give us in terms of the terms of reference or whether that is simply it, those two broad objectives:

'To consider and develop options for fundamental reform of the constitutional structures of the United Kingdom, in which Wales remains an integral part;' and,

'To consider and develop all progressive principal options'.

What does that mean? What does a 'progressive principal option' mean 'to strengthen Welsh democracy'? Does that mean, given that all things are on the table, that you’ll be considering the abolition of the Senedd? That’s not something we would advocate, but, obviously, that’s an option that could be considered as part of the all-things-on-the-table comment that I’ve heard made by one of the co-chairs so far.

You've referred to the panel of experts and you've said that you will tell us more about who those experts are. Can I ask you what consideration is being given to their already predeclared views when you're actually making appointments to that panel of experts, and indeed the other independent members that you're still yet to appoint?

I can see that my time is up. I have a couple more questions if I may, Llywydd; it is an important issue. One of the challenges I think that we have here in Wales is that we have to take the public with us on any journey going forward. The public have been persuaded of the desire to have a Parliament that is strong, that has law-making powers in Wales, and many of us campaigned in referendums for that. Indeed, in the last referendum, I campaigned heavily for a powerful Senedd with law-making powers. But if you're talking about taking things further in terms of this independence route, then I'm afraid that I can see this impacting support for our Senedd in a detrimental way. Has that been considered by the Welsh Government? Because I fear that it is something that could seriously undermine this Senedd and the support for it.

Can I thank the Member for his contribution? You have raised issues that are important in respect of your political position. Could I also thank your party for the engagement that I've had up until now? And, of course, there will be further engagement, because in several weeks' time, we'll be able to announce, hopefully, the full commission, and you'll then have a full picture of the commission at that stage. I'm pleased that the Welsh Conservatives will be participating in this process, and I think it is an important process. Whether your view is that you think it's necessary or not, nevertheless, we have a manifesto commitment for this commission, and that commission will proceed.

On the issue of independence, this isn't a commission that is about independence, it's not about unionism, it's not about federalism. It's about exploring the options that will improve the governance of Wales, the future of Wales, its role within the UK, and all the challenges that we know exist at the moment. It's no surprise to you—I've said it many times in this Chamber—that when I was a member of the inter-parliamentary forum, which was cross party across all Parliaments of the UK, both houses of Westminster, there was common recognition across parties that the current constitutional arrangements are not fit for purpose. I have said on many occasions that part of what the 'Reforming our Union' paper was about earlier on was offering solutions to that, and engagement. So, when the Member asks to what extent do we engage with the UK Government, well, unfortunately, we have put forward our proposals on a number of occasions. We've put forward the various recommendations, and, as they say, it takes two to tango. Unfortunately, there's been a single dance from our side. That is why we have to move to this stage now, and that's why we had the mandate during the election to actually have this independent commission.

In respect of Laura McAllister, she is someone who I believe has a reputation and credibility that runs across political parties. I think she is an ideal co-chair, working alongside Dr Rowan Williams. And, of course, on this commission, we're not talking about people who are there to represent a position of a political party; they're there for their skills and ability. I wonder if you would say the same thing about the director general of the BBC, who was a former Conservative candidate. Those points are made by you, they're entitled to an answer, but I think the proof of the pudding is in what Laura McAllister does, what the commission does. I don't think there can be anyone who will have listened to Radio Wales this morning and heard her description as to how she sees the commission going about its work, and exploring all the issues and options for Wales, and not be impressed. In fact, I'm sure you all were impressed. I appreciate they were points that you do have to make.

You make a point about the two years; well, it could be shorter. I think what is important, of course, is that one of the functions of the commission is, obviously, to influence what may happen in future general elections, to put forward a position from Wales, that we ourselves seize the initiative in terms of how we think the reforms to the UK could take place, and also what the options might be to Wales in respect of things that may happen that are beyond our control, whether it be within Scotland or whether it be within Northern Ireland.

With regard to the cost and remuneration, there will be a remuneration package that is similar to all the other commissions that are established. When you're asking people to take long periods of time and significant work out of their working lives, that is normal. I will write to you separately about those. Those will, of course, be published. I don't have the precise details that are there. Of course, there are members of the commission who are still potentially being engaged with a view to coming onto the commission.

In terms of the terms of reference or the broad objectives, it seems to me that the two broad objectives are clear. The danger is that to try and pad it out with a whole series of issues of this and that, what this might be and what this value might be and so on, becomes quite difficult. So, I am actually quite positive about the simplicity of the two broad objectives, but also, once the full commission is in place, that it will be in a position to actually, I think, develop what its strategic plan will be in terms of engagement, and how it's going to engage with the people of Wales and how it's engaged with the breadth of different views that exist.

In terms of the panel of experts, what we're looking at will partly depend upon the strategic programme, but also it will be a panel that will be there not for political positions, but for the skill and expertise that they have. So, there may well be a need for expertise in respect of business, in respect of finance, in respect of governance, in respect of international examples and so on. And I will report on that in a further statement as well.

Can I just say, in terms of the challenges that are ahead, that this is really about embracing the change that is there? Change is coming, change is going to occur, nothing stays still forever. We know of the dysfunction that currently exists. There was a politician who said:

'I...believe it is good for a country and its people to have its fate in its own hands and for their own decisions to matter. When I look round Europe, by and large it's the smaller countries, who...seem to have higher quality decision making....Being responsible for your own policies produces better outcomes.'

That was a quote from Lord Frost, and I think that exactly applies to the commission that we are setting up.

I think, really, what we are looking to is a form of constitutional levelling up. I think that's what we are looking for and what we are aiming towards. We're looking towards how we might take back control. All those slogans and statements that were made some time back are really something that are directly applicable, and, of course, that is exactly what Lord Frost was saying. I think the key is that the purpose of the commission is to embrace all across Wales and to build consensus. 

Perhaps I'll just finish with the positive comments that you made early on. I do look forward and I do hope everyone will positively engage. I know we have differences, but as we head forward together, I think it's important we try and build consensus on where change will work, ultimately, for the benefit of the people and the communities of Wales. 

A senior political lecturer in Cardiff University—not Professor Laura McAllister, I hasten to add—told me at the time of the establishment of the Commission on Justice in Wales that establishing commissions is fast becoming a national sport in Wales. I heard earlier this afternoon cries of 'waste of time' from the opposition benches—the benches opposite me. Well, let's have a whistle-stop tour of the history of devolution. The FM today quoted Iain Duncan Smith, the Counsel General just now quoted Dominic Cummings; well, I'll go one better for you, I'll quote Sir Winston Churchill for you: 'Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.' So, let's go on a tour of the history of Welsh devolution.

The commissions of the past were not a waste of time. They have led to the strengthening of this place and have improved the lives of the people of Wales. I'm sure that Rowan Williams is very familiar with preaching with three different topics; may I remind you of three previous commissions?

First of all, Lord Richard's commission on better governance. Now, this led to the Government of Wales Act 2006, and this gave us powers to pass primary legislation in specific areas. This legislation also separated the Assembly from the Government. This was very important to us as a democracy in Wales and followed the practices of democracies across the globe.

And then, the All-Wales Convention that led to full powers in devolved areas following the 2011 referendum. I, like Darren Millar, campaigned for that—not together, of course—but there was some excitement at that point, Darren, the parties working together to secure what was best for the people of Wales. All the parties put the nation first in order to get rid of those laborious LCOs. Months later, Counsel General, you were elected to this place at such an exciting and confident time for us as an institution.

And then the Silk commission—remember the Silk commission? It was the Conservative Government that commissioned that, that led to the Wales Act 2014 and the reserved-powers model, and that meant that we could pass laws in any areas that were not reserved to the UK Parliament. In the second part of the Silk commission, those recommendations were accepted by the Conservative Government, and that led to the St David's Day agreement of 2015.

Yes, commissions are not a waste of time, by any means; they are a way of nation building. As Darren Millar has said, Wales has been on a journey, and that journey continues, despite the efforts of some. Brexit, COVID-19, what's happening in Scotland, what's happening in Northern Ireland have led a number of people in Wales to reassess the situation and to reconsider the constitutional future of our nation. Unlike all previous commissions, this time, independence will be officially on the table. This is a huge step forward on our journey. This will be the biggest national conversation in the history of Wales as a devolved nation. I warmly welcome the appointment of Laura McAllister and Rev Dr Rowan Williams to their roles, and I wish them well as co-chairs.

You'll remember the old phrase, 'The Anglican church is the Conservative Party at prayer.' Well, perhaps the appointment of a former Archbishop of Canterbury will make sure that you over there will finally listen.

Plaid Cymru looks forward to working constructively with the commission. The First Minister said today that he will take all possible opportunities to push radical federalism. Well, I will tell you now that we will take all possible opportunities to push for independence, because in the words of the old saying, 'There never lived a nation that ruled another well.' It's true across the world, and it's true here in Wales too. I am aware, Counsel General, that you have been campaigning for devolution since the 1970s, before some of us were born, even. You have experienced the disappointments of 1979, you've experienced the disappointment of the long Government of Margaret Thatcher, but you've also seen how things can change—the status quo isn't here forever. You have seen the joy of Wales voting for this place in 1997.

I'm coming to my questions—I apologise, Llywydd. It's a disappointment for me, therefore, to hear the comments of Sir Keir Starmer that it's only possible that Wales will get additional powers under a Labour Government in Westminster. He said that devolution wasn't his priority, wasn't an important priority for him. Clearly, Sir Keir Starmer didn't read your manifesto, which talked about radical federalism. He's also commissioned that commission that will look at the union, chaired by Gordon Brown. How will the two commissions work together, given that independence is being considered by the McAllister-Williams commission? Will a Labour Government, if one is elected to Westminster, listen to the recommendations of this commission? As the comments of Starmer don't fill me with confidence, and as the Boris Johnson Government doesn't fill me with confidence, what is the plan B if this commission too is ignored, as was the Thomas commission, which was full of reason and wisdom and full of strong arguments, and was ignored entirely by Westminster? So, what is the plan B, Counsel General? Thank you. 

If I can thank the Member for his contribution and the summary, I think, of the history of devolution—certainly my recollection from the early 1970s, when I have to say that there were those of us who were never sure it was going to happen, but the lesson that you learn is that things do change and you have to prepare for the future. I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said that by failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. And he also said that when you are finished changing, you are finished. And we are in a process of change, and that's why I think we have to embrace that change. 

I'm grateful for your reference to the quote attributed to me of Dominic Cummings; it was actually Lord Frost. I thought more pertinently Lord Frost on the basis that he is currently leading the negotiations on the EU exit, so maybe his comments really are worth bearing in mind very carefully. 

Can I say again that I think it's perhaps a mistake to focus on particular individual options, whether it's independence, whether it's federalism, radical federalism, unionism and so on? I think the starting point in terms of the message that has to come over is that we want to see change that will benefit the people of Wales, which will bring decision making closer to people, to give people more control over the decisions that impact on their lives. So, the issue of subsidiarity for me is a fundamental one. 

You mentioned, of course, the interview with Keir Starmer and of course the UK Labour commission that is there. I think what those comments and that commission indicate, of course, is that it is not just in respect of the situation in Wales, or Scotland, or Northern Ireland, there are clear demands for the decentralisation of power, for the greater empowerment of people and communities in respect of that devolution that's already taken place in England. It may be that the debate there is is 10 years behind, but it is certainly gathering pace and it is certainly relevant to, I think, the debate that is coming for the future. My view is that, in respect of the UK Labour Party commission and any other commissions that are there, I would hope that this commission, which is a Welsh Government-established commission, on the basis of a manifesto commitment but is independent of Government and has a mandate to consider all options, would want to engage with any process that is taking place that is of relevance to the people of Wales and relevant to the task that they have.

And in terms of will the UK Government listen, well Governments come, Governments go, politics changes. I think that, if the commission is able to have the sort of engagement we want to see it have, if it is able to build up that sort of consensus amongst the people of Wales and, hopefully, cross party as well on the need for change, then we will succeed. So, we either argue our case, we either campaign for the sorts of changes that we believe should take place and the sorts of values that we have, otherwise what is the purpose of this place? Change is something that is always occurring. It always takes place, and it's much quoted that devolution is a process not an event, well, history is continually changing. The world we live in changes, and I have to say the world I lived in when we started looking at devolution after Kilbrandon in 1974 has changed rather immensely. You no longer see Tipp-Ex and carbon paper in people's offices as you once did. The technological revolution has changed so much, as the world has globally. 

So, I see the commission and I see, hopefully perhaps, in summary to the points you raised being this: we live in a global world, Wales has to make its own voice and its own way and its own identity there. It has to work with the neighbours around it, it has to develop the interdependencies, and that goes fundamentally to our democracy. But, beyond everything, this is not about us as politicians, whichever party we are, saying we know what is best for the people of Wales, it is actually saying that there are challenges ahead, and the best way forward in determining what they should be is by actually engaging with the people of Wales, the people who elect us. And I think that is why the commission is so vitally important. Diolch, Llywydd. 

Huw Irranca-Davies, Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister. Constitutional matters are at the heart of our committee's remit, and having questioned the Counsel General briefly about his plans for a constitutional commission in September, today's announcement is of considerable interest to us; in particular, it will be interesting to consider how it links to the Welsh Government's second edition of 'Reforming our Union', which was published in June of this year.

Our predecessor committee's legacy report highlighted many issues that will be relevant to the work of the commission. It drew attention to the operation and the effectiveness of the Sewel convention and indeed the tensions that have existed between Governments and the need for all Governments and Parliaments to find a shared understanding of the application of that convention. Our predecessor committee also suggested that we monitor the use of inter-governmental agreements, as well as the effectiveness of how the Welsh and UK Governments are working together. And on that latter point, we look forward to the outcome of the long-awaited inter-governmental relations review. The Counsel General told our committee that the Welsh Government was now more optimistic than it has been in the past, and that considerable progress has been made.

Our predecessor committee also issued a warning that the use of legislative consent memoranda allowing the UK Government to legislate in devolved areas becomes increasingly constitutionally irregular if changes made to the Welsh statute book are substantial and significant, and we are already concerned. Less than six months into a new Senedd, and already, consent memoranda for 14 UK Bills have been laid, with the promise of more to come. So, we are taking a close interest in why the Welsh Government appears content to allow, or indeed, to support the UK Government legislating so extensively within devolved areas.  

Our committee notes say in passing the reinstatement of the Welsh Government position that in your view a strong Wales within a stable union is the best option for the citizens of Wales. We note also with interest in the statement that the first objective of the independent commission will be to consider and develop durable options for Welsh devolution in the context of a continuing United Kingdom of four nations, and we note also with perhaps heightened interest that the independent commission's second key objective will be to consider and develop durable solutions, options for Wales, in the event of a United Kingdom that begins to dissolve from the four-nations model. In other words, you say in your statement what might Wales's constitutional place be in a United Kingdom from which one of its constituent parts has elected to leave.

So, we therefore look forward, in the spirit of building consensus, to engaging constructively with the commission and with the Welsh Government to ensure that our constitutional arrangements are fit for purpose. Thank you very much, Llywydd.

I thank the Member for his thoughtful questions and comments. If I might start by actually saying how important I recognise the role of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee is, and in fact, I think I'm taking one of your papers home, which is a critique of one of our legislative consent memoranda, so I want to think about that very, very carefully, but it is a very important function that the committee has in a Parliament without a second Chamber.

Firstly, on 'Reforming our Union', it relates back a little bit, doesn't it, to a question that was raised earlier in terms of engagement with the UK Government, and that is, we had the first edition of 'Reforming our Union' to the UK Government basically brushed aside, and the second version, more recently, brushed aside. And that was really very, very disappointing, because the whole point to those papers was to actually stimulate a debate, was to engage, and it's very difficult when one party, almost ostrich-like, sticks its head in the sand and says it won't engage.

Now, I will say in terms of on the more positive side, and this is a matter that we have discussed before, is with the inter-governmental agreement—there is some progress on that. The inter-governmental agreement is a mechanism for improving the mechanism of engagement between the Governments of the four nations, although it is not a resolution to what I think are the longer term constitutional issues, which really are also the recognition of, I think, sovereignty, and the fact that the sovereignty of the four nations should now become a constitutional inalienability; that is that it is now shared and should not be capable of being changed.

You're right also in terms of the impact of legislation from the UK Government, and what impact that may have in terms of devolving responsibilities, just mentioning the subsidy Bill, the internal market Act, of course, and the way that is being used in terms of the manipulation of finance. We've had this debate many times before, and of course, as you know, we have a legal challenge to the internal market Act, which is being heard in January of next year.

Can I perhaps just summarise in saying I think all the points you make are valid? I think in going ahead and considering the issues, looking at the issues that the commission will have to consider, it would be irresponsible of us not to be having this commission, and not to be engaging in this process in the light of all the challenges we know are ahead. It is not appropriate, I think, to predict what the outcome will be, because I think everybody who's going to be on the commission, including the co-chairs—the position has been very clear from early on, they are not representatives of any particular political position but are there for their skills, to carry out the functions of the commission to engage with the people of Wales.

Minister, when I woke up this morning and I found out that this commission was going to be looking at independence, I was absolutely shocked, but I wasn't surprised. Do you know, it made me think that this commission is likely going to be packed with independence sympathisers? One of the co-chairs leading the commission is a former Plaid Cymru candidate, and I'm not quite sure that sends the right message, that this commission will not be biased towards a certain outcome. Once again, the biased, vocal minority in YesCymru are being supported by this Government and Plaid, and are attempting to have an independent Wales by the back door. It just proves, doesn't it, you vote Labour, you get independence.

So, Minister, can you assure me and the people of Wales that this commission will seriously look at this Government and the way that it is managing devolved areas such as health, education and the economy, which are declining under your watch, and make serious recommendations on how we can improve the Senedd for the better with the powers we currently have, and not keep causing constitutional chaos and playing games with the lives of the people of Wales with this independence agenda, which is being driven by Plaid Cymru wanting to form a coalition deal with yourselves? Diolch, Llywydd.

Can I firstly congratulate the Member on waking up this morning? And the first thing he did was to exercise some thought. I hope this isn't a one-off.

Can I also thank him for the comments because I think, within the positions he's expressed—I understand why he's making them—obviously it's important to show goodwill to the overlords in No. 10 Downing Street, and I'm sure that features in some of the comments that have been made?

I do find the issues that are raised in respect of constitutional chaos to be very unfortunate coming from a party that has been leading us for the last three or four years in absolute constitutional chaos, as we've seen from the economic factors, from the issues in terms of the situation with our ports, the economy, the petrol, the supply lines and so on. So, I don't think you're really in a position to argue on that.

What I will say is this: when we get beyond the political rhetoric around this sort of thing, I'm sure that you have the ambition, as we do, to recognise that, firstly, there is a mandate for this commission, secondly, that the commission has a broad set of terms of reference, which you will be able to contribute to—you will be able to put your views into that—and that we engage positively and courteously in that particular debate. So, having perhaps gone down the road of responding to some of the political comments, I do recognise that there will be an opportunity for all of us to engage, because I'm sure that all of us have one clear objective, and that is to best represent the people of Wales and the interests of the people of Wales, whatever our specific differences may be.

Thank you for your statement this afternoon, Counsel General. But my biggest and most pertinent question to you is: why now? Our nation is facing multiple crises, massive challenges, and yet here we are once again devoting time to the constitution. This morning, WalesOnline published the results of the 10 biggest issues facing Wales, as voted on by the people of Wales, your paymasters. The constitution was not one of them. How do you answer those who say, 'This shows your Government is out of touch'? Ahead of this statement, we could have been mistaken for thinking that you were referring to the Keir Starmer constitutional commission. What relationship will your commission have with the one set up by the UK Labour Party to try and curb its electoral annihilation in Scotland?

Finally, Counsel General, will the Welsh Government be devoting as much time to fixing our broken care system as it does pandering to the Plaid fringe hankering after an independent Wales—independence that has soundly been rejected by the people of Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank the Member for his comments? He says, 'Why now?' Well, if not now, when? Because when you are facing change, when you are facing dysfunction, when you are facing the inclarity in the decision-making process, the inclarity in the financial arrangements, and that situation impacts on the lives of people of Wales, when also it impacts on the democratic mandate the Government has and intrudes upon that, then it is necessary to address something that is a longstanding process of dysfunction, which, cross-party—even people like Sir Bernard Jenkin recognise the need for constitutional change. 

In terms of all the other issues, well, I would have thought the Member might spend his time better if he were to refer to the wasted £500 million of the UK Government on failed privatisation of probation, or maybe the wasted £3 billion on NHS reorganisation, or the wasted £240 million on free school places in England, places that weren't needed, or maybe the £2 billion to companies with links to the Conservative party, or the UK Government that spends £400,000 having chauffeurs driving red boxes around London to Ministers, maybe the £156 million on a contract for ineffective personal protective equipment, or maybe, as The New York Times analysis found, that, of £22 billion of UK Government contracts, £11 billion went to companies that it says were run by friends and associates of politicians in the Conservative party with no prior experience. Now, if you really want to talk about the issues of the economy and the use of public funds, those are the issues that I think you should actually really be addressing.

What we are doing is defending and developing Welsh democracy, but democracy with a very clear objective that allows you to participate, as it does every single party in this Senedd, and, indeed, any group and civic organisation throughout Wales. I would hope that you would actually welcome what is being done, that it is something that is positive and it is something that is looking to the future of Wales, something that we all have a direct interest in, rather than making what I think are points that really are just not relevant to the issues and the spirit of the debate that we've had up til now.  

I thank the Counsel General.