The next item is a statement by the Minister for education on the implementation of net-zero carbon and the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme. I call on Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Through our flagship twenty-first century schools and colleges programme, the Welsh Government has provided almost £1 billion in capital investment to support the delivery of 180 projects to improve schools and colleges, or to build new ones. This achievement reflects our strong collaborative partnership with local authorities, the Welsh Local Government Association, colleges, CollegesWales and diocesan authorities. It has allowed for strategic local decisions to be made on investment priorities in education across the whole of Wales. As one of the first nations in the world to declare a climate emergency and our intention to be a low-carbon nation, we are now at a pivotal point in our investment in our education estate.

We are building on firm foundations. The programme has shown a high level of commitment to sustainability and decarbonisation, targeting a rating of 'excellent' under BREEAM, the Building Research Establishment's environmental assessment method for new-builds. I am pleased to say that new-build projects are not the only ones demonstrating a commitment towards sustainability, given that all refurbishment and extension projects also need an energy rating of A. Furthermore, there was a requirement for all projects under bands A and B to have a minimum of 15 per cent of recycled materials.

By operating in a joined-up, cross-cutting way, the programme has provided a platform to embed the Welsh language as well as other policy strands, such as active travel, biodiversity, ICT, community and curriculum, to name just a few. The programme has acted as a delivery vehicle to ensure the best possible value from investment across our education estate in Wales, and, in doing so, it has provided a sustainability model for others to follow. However, despite this good progress, we have a duty to do more—much more—if we are to address the effects of climate change on our planet, and on our future generations. 

With the first week of the United Nations Climate Change Conference well under way in Glasgow, I am pleased to say our ambition to develop net-zero-carbon education buildings is also well under way. Through our programme we are already delivering the first net-zero-carbon schools in Wales. I visited the first of these, Llancarfan Primary School, yesterday. 

To build on this, I am announcing today that, from 1 January 2022, all new-build, major refurbishment and extension projects requesting funding support through the programme will be required to demonstrate delivery of net-zero carbon in operation, plus a 20 per cent reduction on the amount of embodied carbon—that is, the carbon emitted through construction materials and the construction process. In addition, and in order to maximise the benefits of net-zero-carbon schools and colleges, all proposals will have ambitious plans for biodiversity, active travel and electric vehicle charging facilities. We are working with the active travel board to establish baseline requirements for new schools and colleges in support of 'Llwybr Newydd: the Wales Transport Strategy 2021'.

To be clear, the net-zero-carbon requirement will apply to all business case proposals that have not received approval at outline business case stage by 1 January 2022. I understand, of course, that achieving this goal may impact on the overall cost of projects. However, the cost of taking no action is likely to be far greater. I therefore want to send a clear message to our young learners that we are listening, and we are taking action. To this end, I am expanding the net-zero carbon pilot, which will continue to fund 100 per cent of the additional costs to meet the net-zero carbon commitment under this current wave of investment.

We need to ensure that sustainability and decarbonisation commitments become embedded in our everyday life. This is especially true for the younger members of our nation. We need to provide an effective way for them to learn about the environment around them, including the buildings that they are learning in. I saw examples of this during yesterday's visit. The project team have developed teaching resources that will provide an insight into net-zero carbon, which is both linked to our curriculum and provides a tangible link between the technology in their new school and how this affects the environment around them. It is important that we realise that these commitments are not just about investment in buildings, they are also about investment in the people who work and learn in them. 

Moving forward, I will expect local authorities and further education institutions, along with their design and delivery teams, to work closely with our children, young people and staff so that they have the opportunity to help design their learning environment. This is why I am also announcing today that we will make a sustainable schools challenge fund available to inspire delivery of a number of innovative, sustainable primary schools that are at one with their natural surroundings.  This is a clear opportunity to build on schools' curricula, recognising that one of the four purposes of the Curriculum for Wales is to enable ethical, informed citizens. Sustainability is mandatory within the new Curriculum for Wales and will form part of every learner's education throughout their learning journey. Schools that benefit from the fund will involve learners in the development or implementation of sustainable and environmental solutions as part of their learning. I will be announcing further details of this exciting challenge fund shortly.

Finally, whilst the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme has taken an organic approach towards sustainability and decarbonisation, I feel that now is the right time to look at changing our brand so that it makes a clear statement about our commitments for the environment and future generations. With that in mind, 1 January 2022 will see a new name for the programme, which will be 'sustainable communities for learning'.

Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you, Minister. We wholeheartedly support your statement from these benches, as we share your sentiments, your aims and objectives that you have outlined in your statement. Lowering the impact on the environment and fighting climate change needs to be at the heart of everything that we do now. We all have a responsibility to play our part to leave the world in the best condition that we possibly can for future generations, so the aim of making our children and young people's school environments net zero is absolutely the right thing to do, as is increasing their input in their developments. The additional costs are significant, though, and to achieve becoming net-zero schools, you will need an extra 10 or 15 per cent on top of the cost of building the school anyway.

We have seen really great commitments to the aim of net zero from our local authorities, and as a current councillor in Monmouthshire County Council, I should declare that, but I know that Monmouthshire County Council have shown their absolute commitment to achieving net zero by committing themselves to a net-zero carbon school in Abergavenny. But they're obviously going to struggle, in this current climate, to afford this ambition. Do you believe, Minister, that local authorities should have to struggle when their commitment to our shared objective is clear?

If this Government is truly committed to the objectives and desires set out in this statement, surely it is the Welsh Government that needs to cover all costs to boost new builds to being net zero and to enable schools to adapt to achieve the same goal. You say within your statement that you understand that achieving this goal may impact the overall costs of projects, with the significant costs that achieving net zero has, I think this, perhaps, is an understatement, Minister.

While your plans are ambitious, they are also desirable, but they will be destined to fail, Minister, without making additional funding available to schools and local authorities for the biodiversity projects and electric vehicle charging facilities among the myriad of other changes you expect to be made in any new plans. On top of the extra costs for schools to become net zero, establishing new baseline requirements from 2022 onwards will all come with a cost attached. Who is going to foot this bill? You say that you're expanding the net-zero carbon pilot, but how long for? Only for the next two years and this current wave under band B, or will this continue through band C at 100 per cent? And will there be a band C? I think we need a bit more clarity on that, Minister, please. And when will you be in a position to set out what your plans will be for that band C if it is to continue so that local authorities are able to prepare?

Band B of twenty-first century schools, of course, was announced in 2017. Local authorities submitted their strategic outline plans for the schools they wanted to build or renovate between 2019-24. Net zero was not even then amongst the terms and conditions, and many of these schools have now been completed. And while I agree with you that those in development should be now net zero, the reality is that this will add an extra 10 to 15 per cent on top of the cost, as I’ve said, which is quite a hefty price tag. So, can you confirm, Minister, whether the Welsh Government will cover those additional costs?

You’ve announced also that new schools will be net zero by the month after next. What about schools that are already under construction? These schools have been in development for years. Their plans can’t change just on a whim, however newsworthy and welcome such a statement today might be. Whilst some schools benefit from the twenty-first century schools programme, the percentage of the overall estate is really small still. So, Minister, in order to achieve our joint aims, all schools need adaptations and money to become net zero. So, how does the Minister envisage a programme to help more schools become energy efficient—retrofitting old boilers, installing LED lighting and installing sources of power?

Working with our children and young people on these projects is absolutely fundamental to success, as you’ve outlined, and I totally agree with you on that, and it’s fantastic that sustainability is embedded in our new curriculum. I’d welcome the idea for a sustainable schools challenge fund that you’ve just announced and its intentions, but how much money is going to be in this fund, Minister? Roughly how many schools will be able to take up the fund, as isn’t this something you want all schools to achieve, not just the few that, perhaps, will benefit from achieving it? Although this sounds great, we need more detail, and I look forward to that detail, going forward.

Some of the schools that have come out of this joint collaborative working with local authorities, the WLGA, schools and colleges across Wales have produced some incredible schools. I visited Monmouth, in Caldicot Comprehensive School, in my colleague Peter Fox’s constituency recently, and they’re really impressive. Is there going to be extra funding for them to now develop further to get that net-zero status? It’s not fair to, once again, issue directives from this Welsh Government at this late stage in the scheme and put new financial burdens on local authorities and schools. So, I’m hoping that you can now confirm to me, Minister, that your objectives laid out in this statement will actually, even though you haven’t stated it, be backed up with moneys to cover all costs to cover all aims and objectives. Thank you.

I think the Member asked four questions, broadly speaking—two of which were answered in the statement, and two of which weren’t. So, just to confirm, as I made clear in the statement, there is a clear recognition of the additional costs of a net-zero carbon specification, and I recognise the figures that she indicated in her question. Just in the way that we’ve covered those costs as additional costs in the net-zero pilots that we’ve been running in various parts of Wales, as I indicated in my statement, we will continue to meet those costs in relation to schools that come forward under the new specification within this current wave of investment. The whole point about this, as has happened in the past, is that when the specification of any construction, indeed—but in this context, schools—changes, there is initially a cost implication to that, for reasons which you will understand, but that cost, ultimately, reduces and becomes part of the standard specification, and we expect that will happen in this case as well. But in the short term, whilst the market adjusts to the specification and the supply chain adjusts to it, we recognise the need to support that investment, and that’s why I made it clear in my statement that we’d continue to fund 100 per cent of the additional costs of the net-zero carbon commitment under this current wave.

In relation to schools currently in the system, which was her second question, I made it clear in my statement that the requirement will apply to all business case proposals that have not received approval at an outline business case stage by 1 January 2022. So, if the school’s already being built, by definition, it has already passed that stage. So, I hope that clarifies that point for the Member.

On the two other points which she raised, both of which I think are very important points, it is true to say, obviously, large parts of the school estate in Wales are older buildings, and so she makes an important point about how we can make sure that those schools are also able to play their part in the journey that we are on towards a net-zero Wales. The plan which the First Minister and the Minister for Climate Change announced last week makes it clear that there is work to do to map out the school estate in Wales to understand, really on a school-by-school basis, what the needs are, and that will then provide a platform for a retrofit programme, effectively. But that’s a longer term ambition, frankly, and it’s a much more complex ambition.

I was speaking to people at the school in Llancarfan yesterday about the challenges of, if you're going to introduce an air-source heat pump in an older school, it's not as if it were simply the question of installing the pump; it's the distribution system, it's the insulation in the school, so it's a much more complex project. But that work is outlined in the plan that the First Minister and the Minister for Climate Change announced last week.

On the question of the sustainable schools challenge fund, I will be making more details obviously available of this in the way that she asks in the question. The questions she raises are perfectly, obviously, legitimate questions. She makes the point about shouldn't all schools be in this category. I suppose my thinking here is that we would expect these schools to be particularly innovative in the use of the products, for example. So, you might imagine wood construction and other sorts of pretty innovative ways of construction, and the design of it, is done in conjunction with school users. I think what we want to do is understand how that concept can work in practice and then take the parts of it that work and apply them more broadly. So, that's the thinking behind it, and I hope that, you know, when the plan is ultimately launched, that there will be interest in all corners of Wales. I certainly hope I'll see that.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you very much for the statement. As we know, and as you've mentioned, it's wonderful to construct new buildings that make effective and efficient use of energy, but we do also need to retrofit our current stock of buildings in order to reduce emissions in a meaningful way, as part of efforts to tackle climate change. And I can't emphasise this point enough this afternoon: a report by the Construction Industry Training Board notes that 40 per cent of the total emissions could come from construction work and the built environment, and, of course, that includes schools, colleges, many buildings that are owned by the education sector. And the board says that most of the effort in decarbonisation needs to focus on retrofitting energy efficiency on existing buildings rather than on new builds. So, I'd like to know where you strike that balance. One is aware that there are great benefits from having new buildings, but on the other hand, if we accept the evidence of the Construction Industry Training Board, then should there be as much emphasis on that aspect, or is this aspect of decarbonising the existing estate the priority for us now? And you mentioned that you are mapping the work that needs to be done in that regard, and will be drawing up a decarbonisation plan for that, but there is urgency here. So, what's the timetable for that and what will the milestones be on that journey? How will you prioritise those necessary projects?

And another issue that needs urgent attention is workforce skills, of course. And there appear to be numerous reports now mentioning the number of additional new workers that we need in Wales, just to meet current demand in terms of retrofitting and so on. And I again refer to the Construction Industry Training Board, and in a report published in March of this year, they state that an additional 12,000 roles in construction in Wales will be required by 2028, which isn't so far away, in order to provide for net zero, focusing on domestic retrofitting, and that's an increase of 12 per cent in the workforce. So, I would like to know what your priorities are in this area. How will you as education Minister work towards increasing this workforce? We heard the Minister for Economy mentioning the need to work with regional skills partnerships, but we need more than that, I would've thought. So, it would be good to hear what plans you have in place, particularly in order to enhance the workforce, which, in turn, will assist us in decarbonising not just in the education sector, but across the public sector estate?

And finally, I also want to know more about this sustainable schools challenge fund. You mentioned that its purpose is to inspire many innovative and sustainable primary schools that are part of their natural environment. Now, you're limiting this to the primary sector alone, I believe. Could you explain why that's the case and why you're not going to include secondary schools and colleges and so on? You also state that schools taking advantage of this fund will include learners in implementing sustainable and environmentally-friendly systems as part of their learning, which is valuable, of course, and I welcome that, but, just for clarity here, are we talking about a fund for building adaptations? Are we talking about a fund for creating plans for new schools along with learners, or are we talking about something more than that? Are we looking at having innovative plans and ideas in terms of issues such as local food supply chains as part of the food offer in schools? Are we talking about sustainable travel to school and those kinds of issues? Because I'm sure that our young people do have very many innovative ideas and we do need to listen to them, and, hopefully, this fund will allow for some of that too. Thank you.

I thank Siân Gwenllian for those questions. In terms of the question on new builds or the older estate, there is a difference, of course, in the approach to those things. To be clear, the policy I'm talking about today also includes broad-ranging renewal work in a broad range of schools, so it isn't restricted in that way, but the general point that the Member makes is a fair one.

In terms of timetabling the retrofitting work, the plan that was announced last week by the First Minister and the Minister for Climate Change talks about developing a strategic plan to decarbonise buildings by the end of 2023, that all public buildings have a low-carbon energy stream and, if they can, create their own energy as well. So, the timetable is longer, for the reason that the Member recognises in the question, because a lot of the estate is older. So, we need to map that work out before we can proceed with it, but it is an important element of the journey that we're on in terms of being a net-zero nation.

In terms of workforce skills, I'll refer the Member to what the Minister for Economy said, but it's certainly part of the further education agenda here in Wales. As well as this statement, this week, the Bill is being introduced for post-16 reforms, and one of the opportunities and the challenges that that's going to allow us to tackle more effectively is some of the new needs in our economy, so that we can respond in a much more flexible way to the demand for new skills, as it were, in the economy. So, that contributes towards that.

In terms of the challenge fund, the reason for restricting it in the first phase to primary schools is that the projects are easier to deliver and so that we learn lessons for more broad-ranging projects. Last week, I was in Nottage Primary School in Sarah Murphy's constituency to meet the children there, who had contributed to the design and construction of part of their playground. So, it's a small example of that—we're talking about a more ambitious agenda here—but it was very clear, in terms of the question that the Member asked, that the process of learning those skills and tackling the buildings showed great talent and creativity among the pupils, who were very innovative. So, the intention here is to have an initial scheme that focuses on primary schools in order to show the broader concept and to learn from that so that, hopefully, we can build on that.

I disagree that sustainable communities for learning will cost more in the long term, because there may be a short-term cost, as builders become familiar with all the new ways of building that we've already demonstrated can work in social housing, but, in the longer term, I agree absolutely with the Minister—we cannot afford to do nothing, simply because schools will simply be left with massive energy bills and water bills that they could otherwise be spending on books and learning. So, I absolutely welcome the statement from the Minister.

There's a great deal that we're going to need to do, but there are an awful lot of schools with generous parcels of land attached that have really boring outdoor learning environments, and they can do more about that without massive sums of money, they've just got to give their thought to it. And just think that, instead of having to spend £600 a year on a school bus, you could spend £600—sorry, £400 a year—on buying a bike. The long-term benefits to the individual and to that family are just huge. I do think that special attention needs to be given to the Victorian or Edwardian inner-city schools, because retrofitting is going to be really complicated and, in addition to that, they don't have the capacity to expand, because they're surrounded by other buildings, so creating the learning environment that we need to ensure that all young people realise the challenges and the opportunities of the net-zero Wales is just that much more challenging.

So, I suppose I want to know how you're going to use all this excellent initiative to ensure that new green jobs are not just for those who are the academically less able, but are for everybody, that this is the future if we are really going to make a difference to our society: good design, good buildings, good communities. So, therefore, there's an awful lot of work that needs to be done in schools.

Yes, there is, and I think that this presents an opportunity, not solely from the point of view of the contribution the building itself makes to our larger targets, but there's also a very important opportunity for us to grasp here to use the development itself as a teaching tool, if you like. My visit yesterday to Llancarfan primary was a very, very good example of this. Unfortunately, obviously, because of COVID, they hadn't been able, as a school, to visit the site in the way that I think they would have liked to have been able to do, but they were describing to me that they will—. When the school is completed early next year, it'll have QR codes set at different points in the school where it'll be a teaching aid, effectively, to explain to pupils why the building is built in this particular way, what the consequences are of that and to explain to them the broader environmental impact of the choices that have been made. I think that's just a very inspiring way of approaching this, really, and I think there's a lot of potential for us to try and do more and more of that.

I think the Member makes a very, very valid point about the limitations, perhaps, on some of our older schools because of where they're situated, and the capacity to expand and to develop in the way that we might like isn't there. I think that's one of the challenges that I've been trying to outline in terms of the longer term retrofit ambitions that we have, but it is absolutely essential that we do that as part of our broader aim of being a net-zero nation.

Net zero is achieved by reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Energy efficiency of buildings is, as the Minister knows, only one route to that target, and other factors are also important, some of which he has mentioned, such as that active and safe travel to school is possible, that the new net-zero twenty-first century schools programme doesn't increase car use or congestion or is detrimental to air quality, and that green communal spaces, such as playing fields, or flood-risk areas, are not built upon. Given this, can the Minister confirm that the Government will, therefore, not fund Neath Port Talbot Council's plans to build a super primary school in the centre of Pontardawe in the Swansea valley under the twenty-first century schools programme, which will do all of these things? Indeed, the officers' response to concerns regarding increasing car use raised during the consultation on these plans stated:

'This proposal recognises that for some children walking or cycling to school will not be possible.... However opportunities will still exist through curricular and extra-curricular arrangements for pupils to learn about the importance of a healthy lifestyle'.

That doesn't cut it, does it? Oh, but you said this will only apply to proposals approved after next January. Minister, where spades are not yet in the ground and contracts not yet signed, as is the case with this plan in Pontardawe, could you tell us why is that?

I'm not sure I understand the last question, but, on the broader point the Member was making, I know that she has written to me recently in relation to this. She will also know that, because of the fact that the school to which she's referring is a school in my constituency, a few yards from my office, I know that she understands that, for ministerial code reasons, I can't answer that question, but she will get a response to the letter that she has sent me from another Minister as a consequence of that. 

I hope that she would support the ambition that is described in the statement today. I think it's a very significant contribution to how future projects can contribute to our very ambitious aims of becoming a net-zero Wales.

And finally, Joyce Watson. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I certainly welcome this announcement today. I think you're right to put education at the forefront of environmental sustainability, because it's a generational change that's needed. There are examples of children being very much involved in the RainScape project in Llanelli schools, and the children are fascinated by it and they learn maths from it and lots about their environment. And that's about surface water. 

Since I have a very short time, there are a few things that I want to bring up in the net-zero carbon education building. Of course, we had to have the workforce, then we had to have the materials, and those materials have to be local so that we can deliver the projects. But looking at the sites is equally important. They should not be greenfield sites, and they should be sites that are accessible to the community, in a way that Jenny has already mentioned, where people can either walk or cycle. And I know that's part of your thinking. But we can't hide away from the fact that the public sector is probably the biggest opportunity that we have to drive change in the construction industry here in Wales, and I very much welcome it. 

I thank Joyce Watson for her welcome for the statement overall, and I think it shows her long-term commitment to this agenda as well. I do share the importance of the point that she makes about enabling the development of our future schools to really maximise the opportunity for parents and learners to use other routes to school that are environmentally friendly, and I'm encouraged by the work that we're doing with the active travel board to seek to maximise that, both in relation to our existing school estate but also in relation to a new baseline specification for new schools into the future, which will reflect the principles in the 'Llwybr Newydd' transport strategy. But, just in the way that Jenny Rathbone was also saying, there is a curriculum opportunity here as well, I think, which is to use these future developments as a means of really enabling our young learners to have a full understanding of how important it is to make those active travel contributions to their learning. 

Thank you, Minister. 

Before we move on to item 7, I just want to remind Members that I know it's difficult for backbenchers to be able to ask questions in a minute, because I've been there and I know the difficulty in timings, but can I remind Members, if you do use your full allocation for your context, you are using someone else's allocation to ask your question? Today, we've been able to get the questions undertaken in the time given, but we've been in situations where we haven't been able to do that because the number of Members wishing to speak is a larger number. If you then go over your time, you're taking someone else's time in those situations. Could you please therefore keep your contributions to the time allocations so we can get as many people who want to speak in as possible, please? And it's happened in both statements this afternoon. 

Can I ask a point of order? The time allocated for this was up until 6.10 p.m., so I'm disturbed that other Members were not permitted to speak if they'd indicated they wished to do so. 

No other Members have not been permitted to speak. I said that previously we'd been in that situation, not on this occasion. I did also say that on this occasion, we didn't need that, but we could be in a situation where we do. And the time allocated on your sheet, by the way, isn't necessarily the time we were at; we were watching the time in real time, in one sense.