1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's decision to cancel the Llanbedr bypass in Gwynedd? TQ576

Is the Minister ready to answer?

Is the Deputy Minister ready to answer the question just asked? Lee Waters, it seems you may be on the phone to somebody else, but you're also here in the Chamber. Are you available to answer the question just asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor? It's on the order paper.

Apologies. I've already provided, Llywydd, a written statement to Members with the decision on the Llanbedr access road. The chair's report was included and set out the recommendations, which I've accepted, and the Welsh Government will not support any further work on the current Llanbedr access road scheme.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. Well, the Valleys taskforce, which was chaired by yourself some years ago, recommended the dualling of the Heads of the Valleys road, in a project that, in total, will have cost over £1 billion, enabling tens of thousands of vehicles to travel at 70 mph on that road every year. Now, amongst the arguments put forward for that dualling was the fact that it was possible to link with motorways in the midlands, causing more vehicle transport. By coincidence, the work to dual Dowlais Top to Hirwaun started a month before you announced your moratorium on roads, which, of course, meant that this very expensive plan would not come under the remit of that moratorium.

So, we have one plan here, the Llanbedr scheme, which costs £14 million, with half of it paid by the EU, for 1 mile of road to serve the population of Llanbedr and the Meirionydd coast, and there's another proposal, costing £0.5 billion, namely the Dowlais Top to Hirwaun stretch, which was paid through a new PFI programme for 11 miles of road in the Heads of the Valleys. Which plan do you think will be most damaging to the environment?

And finally, if we are to accept recommendation 10 of the report, which is to build a link road with a speed limit that is far reduced, which according to the report would be very expensive indeed, then how will that be funded, and will you compensate the council and fund the cost with the loss of £7.5 million in European funding that isn't going to be available because of this? Thank you.

I can see that the benefit of time is not making Mabon ap Gwynfor any more amenable to the arguments put forward by the independent panel. I understand his disappointment, because there is often strong local attachment to these schemes. I heard people saying yesterday that this is a scheme that's been an ambition locally for 70 years. We often see this happening where local authorities, when faced with transport challenges, simply dig out the schemes they've had on the blocks for generations.

But we are in a climate emergency, and I do feel a slight despair, listening to the nightly news every night with the strength of the science, the strength of the frustration at the talks in Glasgow, a recognition by all parties that we need to do things differently, statements in this Senedd, statements by Mabon ap Gwynfor and the local Member of Parliament themselves, recognising the scale and ambition for the climate emergency, from his party for us to have a target of net zero by 2030 rather than 2050. These things are not compatible with continuing to build more road capacity. It's just not compatible. The UK Climate Change Committee make it clear that, in order to reach net zero by 2050, we have to reduce the number of car journeys. Hitting net zero 20 years before that, we don't know how to do that, despite being told that we ought to by Plaid Cymru, and it's certainly not compatible with him pushing for us to build road schemes. 

We've set up an independent review. It's a shame that Llanbedr has been looked at in isolation, because I think if taken as a whole, shifting our road spend to maintenance and alternatives would be seen as a whole, rather than just one scheme that allows local people to say that Llanbedr had been unfairly targeted, which is not the case. We did that at the behest of the local authority because of the European funding deadlines, and this is the report from the independent panel. It's not my recommendation, it's their recommendation, which I've accepted.

His points, I thought, were slightly unfortunate, really, about the dualling of the Heads of the Valleys road. The Heads of the Valleys road, as I recall, was approved by Ieuan Wyn Jones when he was the Minister for transport, and we've also made an exception for a scheme for a Llandeilo bypass, which again was a request of Plaid Cymru. We are certainly not just picking on rural Wales. We have cancelled the M4 bypass around Newport. So, we're certainly not taking a view that is somehow geographically biased, we are trying very difficultly to shift the way we deal with transport spend. 

Llanbedr clearly has some congestion problems, particularly at some times of year, and then there's the separate issue of access to the new business units and the aspiration to have a spaceport. The report by Lynn Sloman is very comprehensive and deals with both of those things, and we are committed to using the contribution the Welsh Government was going to make to this project to work with the local authority to do a genuine Welsh transport appraisal guidance appraisal that doesn't start with the assumption that we build a road, which is what has happened in this case, and, indeed, has happened in other cases too, but to look on a mode-neutral basis to see what sustainable measures we could put in place. That is a sincere commitment, and I discussed that with the leader of the local authority. 

Then on the separate issue of access to open up the land for development, again, the report makes it clear that they think that the existing roads enable some of that to happen and, if further is required, that is something that can be identified through the joint work we'll be doing with the local authority. So, I understand the Member's frustration; I can't quite marry it with what he also says we need to be doing on net zero. He's wrong to suggest, as is the MP, that rural Wales or Gwynedd in particular is being picked on here. This is an approach we'll be taking right across Wales because the science demands we do it, and the climate emergency that both he and I, and Gwynedd Council, have signed up to also demands we do it. 

Deputy Minister, the decision to scrap the Llanbedr access road scheme has been met with dismay by residents in the locality. It's no secret; I know my colleague from Plaid Cymru has just said the same. I was actually contacted by a resident from the area before I came to the Chamber, and they showed their utter disgust by telling me how upset they are by the decision. The latest decision to do this was only given the go-ahead in March. It's left people fearful about other road projects that would have been of huge benefit to people's lives and our economy. The fact that they're not going to take shape is a concern for people. 

I understand that the climate is a big concern of yours. However, traffic in this area has proven to be an absolute nightmare for so many people, and they saw this access road as a way out of motoring misery. So, Deputy Minister, I understand that the climate is an issue that every single party is worried about. You mention every week again and again how it's your biggest focus at the moment. So, I want to know what exactly is the alternative package of measures that you are going to be introducing to address traffic in the area now. You've already performed a u-turn on the Llandeilo bypass, will you be reconsidering your decision on Llanbedr as well? Thank you.

Llywydd, Natasha Asghar says that she understands the climate is a concern of mine. I thought it was a concern of hers too, because I've been hearing speeches she's been making week after week telling me how we're not being bold enough and fast enough, and certainly Janet Finch-Saunders as well. I heard Janet Finch-Saunders say at the demonstration with the ice sculpture before heading off to COP that there was no reason for delaying any action because there was cross-party support for doing what was necessary to tackle climate change.

Well, here we are, doing what is necessary to tackle climate change, and we're getting opposition after opposition from parties who've signed up to a climate emergency. Transport accounts for 17 per cent of all our carbon emissions. Therefore, transport cannot be immune from measures to reduce emissions. That means stopping doing what we've always been doing and doing things differently. If we're going to give people realistic alternatives to the car, we have to invest more in public transport. Investing more in public transport means investing less in the approach that we've been taking—the predict-and-provide approach. Transport forecasts say more people are going to drive, therefore we build roads. That's what we've been doing for 70 years, and time after time it results in more people still building more roads, and so the logic continues. 

She may not be willing to face up to the intellectual contradictions of her own argument, but I, in a position of responsibility, do not have that luxury. If we're going to meet the net-zero plan that we've published, we have to reduce car mileage by 10 per cent in the next five years. We cannot do that if we do not put in place alternatives for people with public transport. We can't put alternatives in place if we keep spending money on roads, which generate more traffic.

In terms of what the alternative package of measures is, that is something that we're going to need to work out with the local authority. Lynn Sloman, in her report—I'm not sure if Natasha Asghar has had the opportunity to read it yet, but I'd recommend it—sets out a series of options that are possible, but these are things we want to do together with the local authority.

I thank the Deputy Minister. We will now take a short break to allow some change-overs in the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 15:52.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:02, with Joyce Watson in the Chair.