1. How is the Welsh Government supporting Arriva Wales bus drivers who are seeking a fair wage? TQ580

Thank you for the question.

We encourage disputes to be resolved in the spirit of social partnership, and I'm pleased that talks are ongoing between Arriva Wales and Unite the Union. Transport officials are keeping in close touch with the talks and I have met with Unite.

I appreciate that answer, Minister. Llywydd, I will start by saying that, like these drivers, I'm a proud member of Unite the Union. These drivers live in the communities they serve, and the last thing they want to do is to be on strike, but they are in this position because Arriva pay different rates for the same job, exactly the same job, just across the border. Frankly, I think that is ridiculous. These drivers drive past each other on the same roads.

The disparity with the north-west has now increased from £1.81 to £2.20. I am clear that these drivers are right, and I support them in their calls for parity and fairness. So, with that in mind, Minister, what can the Welsh Government do to support these drivers? And if I may, and finally, Minister, I must comment and say that it is Tory deregulation, under a Thatcher-led Government, that failed the industry and it's failed our communities, and our colleague Ken Skates was brave enough to say that during his time in the Welsh Government. So, how do we ensure, in the future, that we do have bus operators that serve our communities and the travelling public across Wales?

Thank you for that further comment. Can I just say, at the beginning, that we hope that industrial action can be avoided, so that passengers are not further disrupted? We were pleased that the dispute between Unite and Stagecoach in the south-east of Wales was successfully resolved through negotiations, and, as I say, we're pleased negotiations are ongoing at the moment in the north, and we hope for a similar outcome. Of course, there are different sets of issues at play in both circumstances, and these are primarily commercial matters. But, to seize on what Jack Sargeant said there about the impact of Conservative deregulation since the 1980s, this is a profound factor at play here. Since deregulation, bus drivers' wages have risen at a far slower rate than the average rates for similar occupations. So, there is a direct relationship between the regulation and the rates of pay, and it is our intention to address deregulation and bring in a franchising system. We want to see one ticket, one timetable and one fare across the whole of Wales, and, as part of that, one set of terms of conditions for the workforce. We'll be bringing forward a bus strategy and a bus White Paper in the new year, ahead of bringing in new legislation that we hope will not only improve terms of conditions for the workforce, but make bus a far more viable option for more people, as part of our efforts to tackle climate change.

Thank you to my colleague Jack Sargeant for bringing this topical question to our attention today. Deputy Minister, the current strike action by drivers employed by Arriva Buses Wales is, without a doubt, causing considerable disruption to the lives of people across north Wales, particularly the elderly and vulnerable who do not have access to other forms of transportation. I agree with my colleague Jack that the crux of the issue is pay parity with drivers in the north-west of England, who are paid more per hour than their counterparts in north Wales. There are parallels here with the recent dispute at Stagecoach, caused by drivers in Wales being paid less per hour than those in England, which has been settled amicably with a £1 per hour pay rise. It shows that good can be done on both sides when they negotiate with flexibility and also in good faith. Now, I know that there has been a mention of the Thatcher days, but let's focus on 2021, where we're all right now. So, Deputy Minister, will you join me in urging both sides to seek a just resolution to this dispute as soon as possible, and, if this is not forthcoming in the short term, encourage both parties to use the arbitration services to settle this, so that bus services may be restored to the people of north Wales? Thank you.

Well, yes, as I've already said, I'm pleased that negotiations are ongoing. We encourage a spirit of social partnership, and we hope that they'll be able to reach a resolution in north Wales, as they have done in south-east Wales. But I don't think Natasha Asghar can so lightly set aside the issue of deregulation, which was a deliberate policy of the Conservative Government everywhere outside of London. And there is a reason why bus services are better in London than they are in the rest of the country, because London's bus services are regulated and ours are not, which limits our ability to intervene in the market to make sure that there are social services provided, rather than just that that the commercial market determines, and the rates at which the commercial markets decide to pay, which have been less since deregulation than for the workforce as a whole. So, this is a direct result of deregulation and free-market forces, which those benches celebrate at every possible opportunity, and they can't run away from the consequences of that.

This is a wholly indefensible position from a major company running services with public subsidy—that's what we shouldn't forget. Arriva Buses Wales has enjoyed a near monopoly of services in parts of north Wales over the years, and receiving those subsidies, of course, from Welsh Government indirectly. So, I want to hear a stronger intent from Government in terms of some sort of intervention, because the grant is derived from the Government, so surely you're in a position to flex some muscle here, and, if you aren't, then surely tell us that that is your intention to bake those kinds of expectations in. You've spoken in the past about legislation around public procurement, for example. This is the kind of thing that we need to hardwire into future contracts. Now, the offer of 29p an hour as a pay rise compared to the 39p, of course, paid to counterparts in north-west England means that we do have a pay differential of £2.20 an hour, as we heard, for driving the same buses along many of the same roads, but, of course, those workers are all facing the same cost-of-living crisis, and they're key workers. It's easy to forget—our bus drivers are key workers. We've hailed their efforts as heroes during this pandemic; they deserve a better deal. But, of course, this underlines to me that it's time for a bigger shake-up of our bus services. We've been at the mercy of commercial bus companies for too many years. So, do you now agree, Minister, that this underlines the need to take the private profit motive out of public service delivery in Wales and to bring bus services back into public hands?

Hear, hear.

Well, I'm very interested to hear Janet Finch-Saunders's wholehearted support for Llyr Gruffydd's intervention—[Interruption.]—in the market. 'He who pays the piper calls the tune', says Janet Finch-Saunders, and we certainly know that from her colleagues in Westminster, who are putting themselves for hire at the mercy of private companies. So, to directly address Llyr's point, there is a patchwork of arrangements in Wales because it is a commercial market, a commercial market deliberately set up by the Conservatives under bus privatisation. The drivers from Arriva are generally among the better paid in Wales at the moment, better paid than those in Stagecoach, where there has been a dispute recently, but they're not as well paid as those across the border in Merseyside. So, these are complex commercial matters, but I can absolutely give the commitment that we want to see consistency across Wales, both of service provision, of timetable provision and of terms and conditions for staff. And that is something we very much will be designing into the bus White Paper that we're working on currently and will be introducing in the new year. I hope, given the support we're hearing across the Chamber for action, that support will be reflected when the legislation comes forward.

If it's sensible, yes.

Can I thank Jack Sargeant for tabling this topical question on such an important issue? Like Jack, I am a proud member of Unite the Union, and also attended the picket line on Sunday to stand in solidarity with drivers, who fulfil such an important role in our local communities across north Wales. It simply cannot be fair that workers in Wales are paid less and made to work longer hours than their counterparts just across the border in England, whilst the cost of living in the communities in north-east Wales is rising. House prices have increased there by as much as 40 per cent over the last couple of years. The depot I visited was called the Chester depot, but it is in Wales, paying Welsh wages, and I wonder: is this a deliberate policy to cut costs? Does the Minister agree with me that it's totally unacceptable for a company that receives substantial public funds to behave in such an unethical way? Going forward, looking at reform, we need bus services that operate in the interest of the travelling public, with all profits reinvested in the service delivery, rather than a franchising model that will drive down workers' wages and conditions in the name of profit.

Well, as the point has been made across the Chamber, the Welsh Government, along with Governments across the UK, have saved the private bus industry over the last 18 months, which otherwise would have gone to the wall as a result of the coronavirus pandemic, and there is an obligation on the bus industry to behave responsibly in recognition that they are, in fact, at the service of the public.

There is a complex set of arrangements at the moment, and, of course, there are different economic forces at play here. And this is not a new thing; this is a historic position that drivers in Merseyside have been generally better paid than drivers in the north. So, there's not a simple answer to this, but it is absolutely our intention that, through franchising, we will have consistency of terms and conditions across Wales. We certainly don't see franchising as a way of watering down workers' rights—on the contrary. But one thing we are very cautious of, and this is a point that Unite made to me when I met them, is that some companies may be suppressing costs to keep costs low at the moment to then give themselves a competitive advantage when the franchises are advertised, and that is something that we need to keep a close eye on and build into our negotiations once we're able to get the legislation through the Senedd.

I thank the Deputy Minister.