The next item is the motion to approve the Senedd Commission's budget for 2022-23. I call on Ken Skates, the Senedd Commissioner, to move the motion.

Motion NDM7830 Ken Skates

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 20.16:

Agrees the budget of the Senedd Commission for 2022-23, as specified in Table 1 of the Senedd Commission Budget 2022-23, laid before the Senedd on 10 November 2021 and that it be incorporated in the Annual Budget Motion under Standing Order 20.26(ii).

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the Commission's budget for the 2022-23 financial year, and ask that it is incorporated into the annual budget motion. As you'll have seen in the budget document, the Commission is seeking a total budget of £62.942 million, comprising £41.175 million for Commission services, £17.552 million for the remuneration board's determination, £165,000 for the office of the standards commissioner, and £4.05 million for interest and non-cash items.

Now, the budget represents a 4.36 per cent increase on the current year's budget, excluding of course election costs, which may seem significant, but is absolutely necessary for the Commission to continue to support Members to the exemplary standards that we have come to know and indeed to expect. The pay award from the Commission for the Commission's staff for 2022-23 will be 2.7 per cent, as per agreed as a pay award mechanism based on the average increase in the annual survey of hours and earnings for the last three years, with a cap and a collar of 3 per cent and 1 per cent respectively.

The Commission of course exists to support the Senedd and its Members, and the pressure on Members remains very significant indeed. Given our relatively small number and the complex issues that we are addressing right now, most notably reform and the ongoing impact of Brexit, we need a budget that provides the right level of resource to support Members through this period. That is all without taking into consideration, of course, the fact that we are still negotiating and navigating our way through a worldwide pandemic.

In this context, we have added to our staff base in response to both the pandemic and the forward work programme of the Commission, and specifically our committee teams, to ensure sufficient clerking support whilst we explore these complex issues in more depth. Our move to hybrid working is something of which we can be, I think, exceptionally proud when we reflect on the last 18 months or so. The world is a very different place compared with two years ago, and with working from home still the default position for many, including myself, the benefits of working in our locality continue to accrue. For myself and other Members based outside of Cardiff, to continue to work on this basis requires additional investment in ICT support. Within that context, we have invested in our ICT staff to provide resilience and support for the hybrid model, and we'll need to invest further to support this in the longer term.

This budget is transparent, is set in the context of the long-term financial funding situation in Wales, and is mindful of the Finance Committee's statement of principles. I'd like to thank the Finance Committee for its thorough scrutiny of this budget and its continued commitment to ensuring the fairness and transparency of the Commission requirement, whilst continuing to ask questions, which helps us to drive performance and deliver excellence. 

The committee made nine recommendations, which we have addressed in our response. Their first was that the Senedd supports this budget, for which we are grateful. Thank you to all members of the Finance Committee. There were three recommendations on budgetary controls, specifically around cost control and containment in the budget year to try to manage the impact of the increase in national insurance contributions without the need for a supplementary budget, as well as working without the assumption of future-year increases, and finally, proactively communicating with Finance Committee members regarding additional costs that may materialise for 2023-24, once the Commission's priorities for the sixth Senedd begin to take shape. 

Two of the recommendations tasked the Commission with looking at estate utilisation and future space requirements, in recognition of the fact that new ways of working are likely to become normal ways of working. The Commission has been asked to understand where there may be resource implications, what those could be, and also to better understand the terms of the lease and our obligations regarding the full replacement of windows in Tŷ Hywel. A further recommendation asks that we continue to monitor the impact of COVID on our budget, both in terms of where we have and may expect to continue to make savings, and, conversely, areas where it has caused greater expenditure to be incurred. Another recommendation is that we identify and progress quick wins to support our aims of having a carbon-neutral strategy delivered. And finally, we were requested to report on our success in engaging with our hard-to-reach cohorts, particularly those in lower socioeconomic groups, which we are, of course, happy to do.

We've accepted these recommendations and we are, as ever, open to suggestions on how to improve our budgeting process. And we're willing to answer any questions that Members may have. In the meantime, I'm happy to put forward this budget on behalf of the Commission and all its members, and reiterate our commitment to working in a way that is open and transparent, delivering the best possible value for money for the people of Wales.

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I preface my remarks by thanking the committee members for their work in scrutinising the Senedd Commission's draft budget for 2022-23? I'd also like to thank Ken Skates, the Senedd Commissioner for budget and governance, and Senedd officials for attending the Finance Committee to discuss their proposals. We appreciate the open and constructive manner in which the Commissioner and his officials responded to our questions during the evidence session, and are grateful for the additional information they provided so promptly following that meeting.  

We made nine recommendations to the Commission relating to its proposals. I have received the Commission’s response to our report and I am pleased to see that eight of those recommendations have been accepted in full and one accepted in principle.

The Commission’s draft budget sets out its intended expenditure for 2022-23 and contains proposals for a budget of £62.9 million, an overall increase in Commission-related expenditure of 4.4 per cent from 2021-22. The committee supports this overall request and believes that the Senedd should endorse the draft budget. However, we have made several recommendations to caveat this position.

As Members are aware, the current financial picture is uncertain and challenging. As a result, we do not believe that the Commission should be treated differently to other public sector organisations in terms of the funding it receives. In particular, we are concerned that the budget refers to scenarios that would require supplementary budgets to cover certain costs, including those relating to the recently announced increase in national insurance payments. The committee felt strongly that the Commission should fund such pressures on its budget by making in-year savings and efficiencies, rather than relying on supplementary budgets, which should only be used as a last resort.

We were also concerned that the budget does not reflect the Commission’s goals and objectives for the sixth Senedd, as these have not yet been agreed. Whilst the committee acknowledges that we are in the early stages of a new Parliament, and that some agility in financial planning is necessary, we would like to keep a close eye on the budgetary implications of these objectives, and we ask the Commission to provide an update to the committee once they are known. In addition, we want to remind the Commission that it should adhere to the committee’s statement of principles for all directly funded bodies when formulating future budgets and not assume an increase in funding from one year to the next.

Turning to specific issues, clearly, the COVID pandemic has had a significant impact on the Senedd, its staff and services. The committee recognises the dedication and flexibility of staff in successfully supporting the Senedd throughout the pandemic. We also appreciate the way in which the Commission has provided regular updates on costs and savings relating to COVID to the committee, and recommends that such an approach continues. The committee was pleased to hear details of the Commission’s carbon-neutral strategy for 2021-30, and calls on the changes proposed in that strategy, which are simple and cost-effective, to be implemented at the earliest opportunity, to maximise their benefits.

Members will be aware of a significant project to replace the windows in the Tŷ Hywel building. The project cost of £6 million is substantial and has not been included in the budget for 2022-23, although the Commission indicates that the work could potentially take place in 2023-24 if the associated budget is authorised. The committee acknowledges that the Commission has an obligation to keep its rented premises at an agreed level of upkeep. However, it is not clear whether the Commission is contractually bound to replace the windows as part of its leasehold responsibilities. Before considering any future budgetary proposals relating to this project, the committee requests further details and assurances from the Commission before it can express a view on the project’s affordability.

Finally, the committee was pleased with the Commission’s approach to engagement and outreach work, particularly its aims in reaching new audiences and people that have not historically engaged with the Senedd. These are laudable objectives. However, to ensure that this work continues to provide value for money, we ask the Commission to provide regular reports on its success or otherwise.

Dirprwy Lywydd, budget scrutiny is at the heart of our work. As a committee, we want to be robust and rigorous and ensure that the annual budgets of the public bodies considered as part of our work are proportionate and justified. We believe that the Commission’s budget for the next financial year meets these criteria. However, we will be keeping a close eye on the Commission’s future spending plans during this parliamentary term to ensure that this continues to be the case. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to begin, actually, by making clear my delight; it's the first opportunity I've had, actually, to thank Members, and indeed my own group, for appointing me to become one of the Commissioners for the sixth Senedd.

I'd just like to say, Peredur, your contribution there I felt was really appropriate, because, at the end of the day, we as a Commission—and I can say 'we as a Commission'—are not above scrutiny and challenge, and neither should we be. I'm aware that, when you're a Commissioner, you become—I'm sure Joyce would agree—a sounding board for any issues that people wish to raise with you. I know that some Members have had concerns about the late sightings of the draft budget. I have raised these concerns, but this has been explained to me along the way—it's because we were only re-elected, and some elected for the first time, in May. I know that that did impose some restraints. However, I have been assured that engagement with all Members by our Commission, in terms of our budget and its spend, will be far more transparent and far more obvious to all Members as we go forward.

Secondly, it has been noted by some Members that the Commission—yes, as has been rightly pointed out—is seeking a budget increase of 4.39 per cent, whilst the Member allowance budget increase is just 0.004 per cent. And it's already been said, hasn't it, that—. I've been here now 11 years, and, I have to say that, whilst, again, we don't want to see increases in our expenditure, I think there has to be some proportionality and some recognition of the fact that our Members here are very important, and they do need the tools and the wherewithal to do their role. There are also issues that have been raised with me, and I've raised them previously, about the inequality in pay scales between the Senedd Commission and, indeed, our own support staff. I know, before anyone tells me, that that's a remuneration board matter, but, again, I think we as a Commission ought to be far more robust and making that point more strongly. 

Elsewhere, Members have also raised concerns around an increase to the broadcast budget—on page 9. That's a significant amount of £100,000, staying at that level after a retendering process. I'm still waiting for a better explanation on that point. So, whether, Ken, you could elaborate more on that. Because we try to look at budgets looking more static, and hence the retendering process, yet our broadcasting seems to go up ordinarily every year, and we should be—. The Finance Committee and the work you've done, the points you make about—. It doesn't matter what financial pressures we're facing, you have to look at where you can make efficiencies in the year. 

Other concerns have been raised with me about unallocated and yet earmarked funds—£200,000 in table 10 for engagement is earmarked for larger initiatives, but the Commission is yet to decide how and if to allocate. Questions still remain over the planned estates and facilities management expenditure, costing £600,000 every year, and whether we would still need to allocate £300,000 to future ways of working, as forecast in 2024-25. So, again, Commissioner Ken, I would appreciate those points being addressed in your reply. I note the Finance Committee's recommendations that the Commission prioritises and implements changes associated with its carbon-neutral strategy for 2021-30 that are simple, yet cost effective, and to do so at the earliest opportunity. 

On this occasion, the Welsh Conservative group will not be able to support the draft Senedd Commission budget. But, again, I know I speak on behalf of my group in paying tribute to the work of the Commission and its staff, who, without any shadow of a doubt, over the last 20 months of challenge, have made sure that the crucial work of this Senedd and its Chamber could continue, moving to hybrid operations, whilst also keeping staff and members of the public safe on our estate. I look forward to working with all the Commissioners and the Llywydd over the next Senedd term, to ensure that questions like these are able to be raised in this way, and that we can be assured of the necessary and appropriate answers. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I am not going to object to the Commission's budget. I do, however, want to make three points. Firstly, I want to reiterate recommendation 2 from the Finance Committee:

'In line with the statement of principles, the Committee recommends that the Commission should fund in-year pressures on the budget it has control over by making in-year savings and efficiencies, rather than through supplementary budgets.' 

This is difficult, but it's what other public sector bodies have to do. It can be difficult for the Commission. I would say it's a lot easier for the Commission than Natural Resources Wales or council social services departments to make those savings.

Secondly, the Commission has several layers of management. Other public sector organisations have been delayering and producing flatter and flatter structures. Can I urge the Commission to produce a flatter structure, and, as vacancies become available, move towards a flatter, more efficient and less costly structure?

Finally, on capital expenditure, we saw, a few years ago, approximately £2 million spent on remodelling the ground floor of Tŷ Hywel. This year, we have seen a television replacement programme. The one that has been removed from my Cardiff office is newer than the one I have at home. Of course, no-one asked me if I wanted a larger, newer one. As I only use it to follow Senedd proceedings in my office, the old one was sufficient. Working computers and operating systems still supported by Microsoft are being replaced, or in the case of one in my Cardiff office, disabled. I have previously asked for a service level agreement for individual Members. I'll again ask for a service level agreement, but I keep on being told the Commission is there to support Members. In those immortal words, 'You could have fooled me.' I think that it is important that you tell us what I can expect, because what I get from the Commission is, I think, a fairly poor service for the cost. If you divide what is being spent by 60, I don't think I'm getting anywhere near value for money for that.

Finally, all the money spent on the Commission is money not available for other public services. We're taking money out of direct public services for the Commission, so we must make sure what the Commission does is of benefit. Thank you.

Can I thank Members for their contribution this afternoon? Firstly, I'd like to respond to the Chair of the Finance Committee. Peredur, I am very, very grateful, not just for your supportive comments this afternoon, but also the way that you chaired your committee and scrutinised both myself and Commission staff during the course of setting the budget. Of course, there were nine recommendations stemming from your committee's report. We were happy to accept eight of them, and accept one in principle. That one recommendation that we accepted in principle related to the desire for us to make in-year savings and efficiencies, rather than to bring forward any supplementary budgets, especially in regard to changes to national insurance contributions. Now, we accepted in principle—. And this relates to the point that Mike Hedges was raising. We accepted it in principle, because Members will be aware that we have no contingency budget available to us, and that's in contrast to the Scottish Parliament, where the bureaucracy in Scotland have a £1 million contingency fund available to them. So, to the point that Mike raises, of course, where we can make efficiencies we will do so, but without a contingency fund, if we are unable to make those savings then of course we have no option available to us but to return with supplementary budgets. Peredur also raised the important point about the carbon-neutral strategy and we are bringing forward plans—quick wins, as you might call them—to ensure that we are doing all that's possible to reduce our carbon footprint, and that includes projects such as replacing lights and ensuring that we have the most up to date metering system that can drive efficiencies. 

Recommendation 6 of the Finance Committee's report obviously addresses concerns over the windows in Tŷ Hywel and the future use of the building. Now, we accepted this recommendation, and we will fully examine our contractual obligations with the landlord, but we will also consider the future use of Tŷ Hywel in the context of the accommodation strategy that is being drawn up at the moment, and Members, I'm sure, will be pleased to know that we'll be providing an update to the Finance Committee on our accommodation strategy in 2022. Of course, we also need to consider the future of Tŷ Hywel in regard to the Welsh Government's own intentions for its estate and how it sees future ways of working being incorporated into plans for its estate and office buildings, because of course that will then have implications for the entire Senedd, and, in particular, for Tŷ Hywel.

Moving on to Janet Finch-Saunders, can I thank Janet for the work that she has carried out as a Commissioner in helping to shape this budget? I'd also like to thank Peter Fox, as a Member of the Finance Committee, for the scrutiny that he gave during the course of our appearance in front of the Finance Committee. It is disappointing that the Conservative Party will not be supporting the budget, given two highly effective members of that group, either as a committee member of the Finance Committee or as a Commissioner, through collective responsibility, have either recommended approving this budget to the Senedd or, of course, have worked with other Commissioners in formulating the budget.

I can provide more detailed answers in writing to Members regarding the broadcasting budget that Janet Finch-Saunders raised, but in brief, we will be retendering for the broadcasting contract in 2022-23. Until we receive the tender responses, we don't know what the cost will be and whether there will be an increase, but given that we've had a flat cost on that particular requirement for some time, it makes prudent sense to incorporate into our proposals an additional £100,000. But of course, as noted in the Finance Committee scrutiny session, it's likely that the 2023-24 budget will reflect a revised budget amount as we gather data on new spending patterns and requirements post pandemic.

In terms of engagement, of course, there is a reduction of £18,000 in terms of engagement through events that perhaps are going to be curtailed or perhaps even not go ahead as a consequence of the pandemic, but it is absolutely essential that we ensure that we work with communities, hard-to-reach cohorts and the citizens of Wales to deliver awareness of our national Parliament.

And in terms of future ways of working, I think it would be negligent of the Commission not to make provision for potential future ways of working to be the normal ways of working, and the hybrid model of working, whilst it can achieve cost savings and efficiencies, it can also lead to increased costs elsewhere in terms of ICT and ICT support. So, again, our plans for that particular element of the budget make sense and are prudent.

I'll just—

Commissioner, you have exceeded your time, but I know that it's an important issue, so you've got a few more minutes there before we come to an end, okay?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I was reaching my final point, and that is in relation to the service that Members receive from the Commission and its staff. We strive for excellence, and I'm pleased to be able to indicate to Mike Hedges that there is a service agreement in terms of the speed with which claims are processed. But I must say to Members and to citizens across our country that the work of Commission staff must first and foremost be to protect the public purse and ensure that we provide value for money. And often, that can incur further scrutiny of claims, which can, inevitably, lead to some delays. But we strive for excellence in all of the services that we provide.

Thank you, Commissioner. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see that there is an objection. I will defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.