Item 9 is the next item. This is the legislative consent motion on the Armed Forces Bill, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership to move the motion. Hannah Blythyn.

Motion NDM7836 Hannah Blythyn

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Armed Forces Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Diolch. Llywydd. I move the motion today and will set out why I believe that the Senedd should support it. We’ve recently marked the remembrance period, as we do every year, to pay tribute those who’ve served in our armed forces, both past and present, and I know Members in this Chamber took part in a debate as well as attending services and events, as we always do, as I did in my own constituency. However, we all recognise that our armed forces community are not just active or visible during two weeks in November—they are serving throughout the year, their families are impacted throughout the year, and some of those who have served may need support throughout the year and for many years to come.

The armed forces covenant, implemented 10 years ago, has seen great strides forward in the support for our armed forces community. It’s helped increase awareness amongst our service providers of the issues facing the armed forces community and support that may be needed. It also developed and strengthened bespoke medical services, such as Veterans NHS Wales, and has seen new employment schemes so that our skilled forces personnel continue to contribute to our communities and economy. However, there is more that we can do to make sure the covenant principles of no disadvantage due to service and special consideration for those who have given the most are upheld. Too often, our armed forces community can still slip through the net. Often, it’s not because a service provider doesn’t care or doesn’t have the structures in place—it could simply be because of a lack of awareness or identification.

The Welsh Government is of the view that clause 8 of the Armed Forces Bill will help tackle these issues. A due-regard duty, along the lines of that in the Equality Act 2010, will increase awareness amongst service providers. Providers will need to demonstrate that they have considered the needs of the armed forces community, not necessarily to advantage them over other people, but to ensure that the unique sacrifices they have made, which may have affected their ability to access services, are considered.

Although I’m clear that clause 8 of the Bill relating to the covenant is within the Senedd’s competence, we are supporting a cross-UK Bill to ensure that there’s a joined-up approach to this element of armed forces support. We work closely with all UK nations and share best practice with them, and will continue to do so. Recent examples have included developing an employment toolkit for military spouses and partners with the Scottish Government.

Llywydd, I’d like to thank both the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Equality and Social Justice Committee for their scrutiny of the Bill, the legislative consent memorandum and supplementary legislative consent memorandum. I welcome the correspondence with the Chair of the equality committee and hope that I was able to provide the answers to the questions that were raised and which were published in the committee report. I also welcome the conclusions and recommendations of the legislation committee, and am happy to address many of their points now.

As the committee points out, the UK Government had originally indicated that they considered clause 8 would engage the LCM process, as corresponding provision could be made by the Senedd, then changed their position. Whilst the legal assessment of the UK Government is beyond our control, I wrote to the Minister, Leo Docherty, on 20 May to express my deep disappointment at this change in position and requested clarification of their reasoning. The Minister responded and explained that, after further legal analysis, their view had changed. My officials also raised the issue in meetings with the UK Government. Our assessments of the main areas of competence of the element of this Bill may indeed diverge, but they are both, however, committed to implementing the provisions.

We believe that the legislative consent of the Senedd is required, as the majority of issues relating to support of the armed forces community in Wales are in the areas of health, education and housing that are in the scope of the Bill are within competence. I therefore believe it's right for Members to have a chance to debate this Bill and LCM and to have their say.

Regarding our requested amendment for the consent of Welsh Ministers to be obtained prior to any changes to the guidance or regulations, it was also disappointing that the UK Government would not agree to this request. However, this is not surprising, given the difference in the legislative competence assessments of the Bill between the Welsh Government and UK legal teams. However, the Bill provides that the Secretary of State for Wales must consult the Welsh Ministers before issuing guidance that relates to devolved Welsh functions. In addition, before making any regulation to broaden the scope of due-regard duty to include other bodies or functions that are within the competence of the Senedd, the Bill provides that the Secretary of State for Wales must also consult the Welsh Ministers.

The UK Government has also stated that any such changes 

'would only happen where there is benefit in doing so after consultation with key stakeholders, such as the Welsh Government, and after due Parliamentary process had been conducted'.

I have made it clear that I would expect any such proposals to change the guidance or scope of the Bill to be consulted on in detail with Welsh devolved Government and partners. The level of collaboration today on the statutory guidance supports my view that we are vital contributors in developing guidance that is useful to our partners in Wales.

I now call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. We considered the Welsh Government’s memoranda in relation to the Armed Forces Bill in September. In doing so, we noted that our predecessor committee in the fifth Senedd had scrutinised the Bill. Our report drew two conclusions and made one recommendation, and I thank the Deputy Minister for responding to our report ahead of this afternoon’s debate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Again, my thanks to my committee colleagues and our clerks and the support team for their work on this as well.

Now, as the Deputy Minister has set out, clause 8 of the Bill makes provisions relating to the armed forces covenant by amending the Armed Forces Act 2016, and we noted the Welsh Government’s assessment that clause 8 of the Bill requires the Senedd’s consent.

We were particularly concerned to note, however, that the UK Government had changed its position on whether clause 8 relates to a devolved matter between the Bill’s introduction in the House of Commons on 26 January and its reintroduction on 12 May. And, further to that, no explanation had been provided.

We were also disappointed that, whilst the memorandum noted the UK Government’s change in position, there was no further assessment or detail provided with regards to a change of the Welsh Government’s view on this as well. So, our report therefore asked the Deputy Minister to address this matter, and we noted her response, which sets out both her engagement with the UK Government and the Welsh Government’s position. I welcome the information from the Deputy Minister, and we would respectfully, and we think helpfully, suggest that the level of detail that was provided subsequently could well have been included in the  original memorandum, to make this information as accessible as possible as early as possible.

Now, as I've already mentioned, our predecessor committee also scrutinised this Bill. One of their recommendations at the time was that the Deputy Minister should pursue amendments to the Bill to the effect that the Secretary of State is required to obtain the consent of the Welsh Ministers before issuing or revising guidance and before making regulations under the new sections inserted by clause 8. And we welcome the fact that the Welsh Government did indeed pursue this recommendation, but we note as well that their request to the UK Government was rejected, as the Deputy Minister has laid out. In rejecting that request, the UK Government said that any such changes would, in quotes,

'only happen where there is benefit in doing so after consultation with key stakeholders, such as the Welsh Government'.

Now, in our view, this response does not demonstrate an understanding of the Welsh Government’s position as the elected Government in Wales. The Minister told us that whilst she is disappointed in the UK Government's adopted position, she considers, in balance, that the benefits outweigh any detriment that results from the UK Government's position, and so, Llywydd, in closing, I draw the Senedd's attention to these comments. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

There are no other speakers, therefore I call on the Deputy Minister to reply.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank the Chair of the committee for your contributions in the debate, and also the correspondence we've had on this matter? As I said in the opening remarks, much of your concerns and disappointment are shared by myself as well, and I certainly take the points that you made with regard to the level of detail provided subsequently, and that's certainly something that we can then take back as we move forward. But I welcome the points you made in closing, as I think we're clear that this is an important piece of legislation for our armed forces community and I believe it will help instil a more consistent approach and minimum standard of service delivery in Wales and across the UK, whilst complementing the already excellent work, and building on that, of our public and charity sector partners. So, I would encourage fellow Senedd Members to support this LCM.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.