The next item is the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2021, and I call on the health Minister to move the motion. Eluned Morgan. 

Motion NDM7838 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 20) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 29 October 2021.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I move the motion before us. 

The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) Regulations 2020 put in place the legislative framework for the alert levels described in the coronavirus control plan. In the autumn and winter update of this plan, which we published on 8 October, we set out what we expect to keep as a baseline measure in place over the autumn and the winter. Some of the key defences that will keep us safe over winter are in the regulations. They include the fact that businesses must carry out a COVID risk assessment and put in place reasonable measures to minimise risks; wearing face coverings in indoor public places; the requirement to isolate after a positive test; the use of the NHS COVID pass to gain entry to certain events and venues. 

The current regulations expire on 26 November. On 29 October, draft amended regulations were laid that will extend the expiry of the regulations for a further three months to 25 February, which will take us through to the beginning of spring. As has been the case since the beginning of the pandemic, the regulations will be reviewed every three weeks and measures that are no longer proportionate will be removed.

Separate legislation, the functions of local authorities regulations, confers powers on local authorities in Wales to respond to serious and imminent threats posed by coronavirus in their areas. This is also due to expire on 26 November and the draft amended regulations also extend the expiry date of these regulations until 25 February. The functions of local authorities regulations are designed to do three things if localities are faced with a serious coronavirus outbreak: firstly, they empower local authorities to close or impose restrictions on specific premises or public places; secondly, they allow them to stop events from taking place or impose requirements on them; and thirdly, they permit local authorities, national parks and Natural Resources Wales to close public paths and restrict access to land.

Llywydd, let me be clear: as we move into winter, the measures in the regulations will help us keep Wales safe and take further action if necessary at a local level. I'm very pleased we have the opportunity to debate this motion today, and I look forward to hearing and responding to Members' contributions. I urge Members to support the motion.

Minister, we thank you for your statement today and the regulations you've set out. We won't be, as Welsh Conservatives, supporting these regulations today. I would point out to the Minister and Members that we've supported approximately 90 per cent of the Welsh Government's COVID regulations because we accept and agree that they're in place for good reasons in terms of keeping the people of Wales safe. Many of the aspects that you've set out in these regulations today we do agree with; however, there are two particular reasons why we won't support the regulations today. The first is that we can't support the extension of COVID passes for the reasons I've previously set out. There's the ethical, equality and other negative ramifications of COVID passes; we simply believe that they outweigh any benefit. And when I say 'benefit', we've yet to see the evidence of any benefit. Of course, I've already asked questions on this today, but we'd like to see the evidence that sits behind the COVID passes, and the benefits that they bring. In terms of the second point, I would state that we can't support the regulations today because the regulations provide an extension of a further three months of all COVID restrictions, including COVID passes, and I believe that the Government should be bringing forward the regulations on a case-by-case basis so we can discuss these here in this Chamber. As the Minister responds to my comments, I'd be grateful if the Minister could respond to that specific point. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Extending the regulations until the end of February is the aim here and we will certainly be supporting these regulations. I'm surprised to hear the comment made by the Conservatives that they don't now support having any restrictions in place, to all intents and purposes, because this is the framework, and it's within that framework that the regulations are imposed. Plaid Cymru has made it clear throughout the pandemic that we support taking action on the basis of evidence, supporting steps that could help to restrict the transmission of the virus and keeping the people of Wales safe. And yes, for all of us in every party, that's meant very difficult decisions being made over the past year and nine months.

I make the point once again here, as I've made several times before, that we need to work more intensively on communicating the rationale, yes, behind the regulations, but also the important steps that people need to take to adhere to the regulations, including those fundamental things. The more people who can work from home, the more people who can use facial coverings in busy indoor spaces and ensure that there is fresh air around them, the more hope there is that we can limit the transmission of the virus. I think that there is evidence of where the message is perhaps being lost, the message is being diluted, so I would encourage the Government to push that particular point. Of course, these regulations need to go hand in hand at the same time as work to strengthen the health service.

I will make this point to close: with such great pressure, and growing pressure, on the health service as we go into the dark days of winter, we do need to avoid being caught in a vicious circle, an endless circle, where waiting times deteriorate. What I see is short-term steps being taken by the Government, yes, but we need to see that change in the health landscape that will ensure that we have health and care services that are more sustainable for the long term. Yes, it's about battling against this virus that is such a threat within our communities, but do keep an eye on that long-term view, and make changes now that will give us those robust services and more resilient services for the coming years.

I thank the Minister for the statement today, and I'll be supporting these. These are difficult decisions, but we have to acknowledge as well that they are temporary but emergency measures, and their purpose is not only to protect public health, but also, indeed, to try and keep businesses open with the minimum of measures that will protect the public health not only of their customers, but also of their staff as well in those places of work, who do not have a choice. So, it's very difficult, we hope they're as temporary as can be, but we need to get through this winter as well.

I like to bring unusual things in front of the Minister, and I've got an unusual one today. I'm not asking her to intervene or to cast judgment; I just ask her to keep open her diary, because I might need to come back. In the middle of October, two very good football clubs in my area, very good football clubs that not only have adult teams, but also have extensive junior teams as well, were due to play on a Saturday morning in the middle of October. The team was advised on that very morning—that morning—that there were two players that had tested positive. By the end of two or three days later it was seven players. They consulted with the local authority to say, 'What should we do?' The local authority said, 'Do not play the game'. They did not play the game. They have been fined £100 and deducted three points for not playing the game. They have an appeal next week, and we have to leave this proceed, so do not intervene in this yet, Minister. But could she simply say that, in the generality of my enquiry, if a club is advised by local COVID enforcement officers that they should not proceed because some of the team have tested positive, that's exactly the guidance that they should follow, and not risk either their own players, the participants, the people watching on the field or the other team indeed—that they should not play, and play another day instead?

Minister, with regard to COVID passes in Wales, the Cabinet must have a threshold and parameters as to when they are imposed on certain venues. What I specifically want to know, Minister, is: what level does COVID-19 have to be at in Wales to get COVID passes repealed? Because none of this legislation or rules or passes that are brought in are here to stay indefinitely. So, I think it's very important for the public to know at what level will COVID passes be repealed in Wales, because I think that's vitally important information that the public needs to know. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Minister now to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much. I am grateful to Members for their contribution to this debate. I think it is important that I emphasise once again that, unfortunately, coronavirus has not disappeared. The situation in Wales remains serious, with case rates that are far too high. The pandemic continues to put significant pressure on our health services.

I'm very disappointed to hear that the Conservatives won't be supporting these regulations. We are at a situation in Wales where we have over 500 cases per 100,000. That is a very, very high level of cases within our communities and I think it's frankly irresponsible not to take this situation seriously. We have put these protections in place in order to protect the public. We are going into a very, very difficult time with the winter pressures, and certainly it is disappointing to see that. I can assure you that we took very seriously all of the ethical, legal and practical issues relating to the introduction of COVID passes into consideration before we not only introduced them, but thought of extending them to cinemas. As I quoted to you earlier, I've had a very interesting message from a cinema saying that since we've brought in the COVID pass, the sales have gone through the roof in his particular cinema, because customers feel safer because they're aware that other people are protected who are sitting near them. So, just to be clear—

Will you take an intervention? 

You can take it if you want to. 

I'm happy to take an intervention.

Thank you for giving way. I'm disappointed that you feel that it's irresponsible that we're not supporting these regulations today, but you yourself and the First Minister said that when it came to the introduction of COVID passes, they were finely balanced decisions that needed to be taken in terms of ethical ramifications. So, surely you accept that we're just taking a different judgment call in those finely balanced decisions that you yourself mentioned. 

I'm sure Russell is aware that these regulations don't just apply to cinemas; they also apply to the broader regulations surrounding all of the other measures that we have in place, including wearing face coverings in public places, working from home and all of those other things. So, I think as we enter the winter months, it is really important when we see cases surging across the continent that this is not the time to dismantle the provisions that we have. [Interruption.] Yes.  

I genuinely do appreciate the point that has just been made by Russell that, sometimes, these are finely balanced and they're taken in the round of a range of measures. But my point would simply be, Russell and Minister, that if it's a fine balance, that fine balance should be then exercised in the interests of public health and safety, and avoiding what we're seeing happening now on the continent.  

Thank you very much. I think one of the key things to remember in terms of what we're discussing here today—it's a very legal discussion that we're participating in here—is that part of it is about making sure that, actually, these restrictions are not in place indefinitely. We have a process where these are revised, but there is effectively a sunset clause built into these regulations. So, these are not things that will continue for the long term, but, of course, we do have a regular rhythm every 21 days of reassessing the situation. 

I'd like to thank Rhun for his commitment in supporting these new regulations. You're right that the landscape is very important. Ten per cent of the cases in hospital today are COVID related, and, of course, we're already committed to spending £0.25 billion in ensuring that services recover post COVID. So, I hope that we can actually look at those cases of people who have been waiting a very long time for their treatments and their operations and so on. 

Huw, it's always a joy to hear your special cases, and particularly a joy to hear this one, which is rather quirky. But I am sure, if I am not to intervene at this point, I think speaking in general terms, if people have been advised by public health experts not to do a particular thing, I think they would be well advised to be in a situation where they heeded that advice, and that they would have to be very brave if people were to impose a fine on people were that situation not to have been heeded. Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.