1. What advice has the Counsel General given to the Welsh Government regarding its powers to introduce a universal basic income? OQ57245

Thank you for your question. The Welsh Government has committed to piloting a basic income scheme for care leavers in Wales. The pilot will help to inform any future decisions of the Welsh Government, including whether to bring legislation before the Senedd.   

I appreciate that answer, Counsel General, and, of course, I very much welcome the commitment from the Welsh Government to commit to bringing forward a pilot on the universal basic income, an idea that was sparked in interest because of the debate I led successfully in the last Senedd. But it is important that we do get a successful trial here in Wales, because that could really add to the case that you talked about in your first answer there. And to be truly successful, we do need the Department for Work and Pensions to agree to work constructively with Welsh Ministers, as the competence for welfare does sit with them. Counsel General, have you advised Welsh Ministers of the importance of a constructive conversation with the DWP, and what action can be taken to secure this agreement?

Well, firstly, can I thank the Member for the work he's doing to keep this very important policy initiative on all our radars and in the attention of Welsh Government? And it is certainly met with, I think, a very positive response. You'll be aware, of course, the First Minister's—the statement that he made some while back when he said:

'As far as universal basic income is concerned, what the Government proposes is what we said in our manifesto and that is an experiment and a pilot. We don't have all the powers that would be necessary'— which is the point I think that the Member's referring to—

'let alone all of the funding that would be necessary to include a universal basic income for the whole of Wales, but we do have the ability, I believe, to design a smart experiment that will allow us to test the claims that are made for universal basic income.'

I can tell you that there have been a variety of discussions with counterparts, that an approach has been made to the DWP. I don't know what the response is, but that will obviously be shared when we have more information on that. But you're absolutely right: in order to make progress in this matter, those who hold other levers of power in this area are the ones who really have to seriously engage with us as well.

There's a lot to welcome with a proposed basic income trial, and Jack Sargeant alluded to an issue that I've been aware of and have asked questions of the Minister for Social Justice in this Chamber on. The reality is that unless an agreement is struck with the DWP, this pilot has the potential to leave recipients of the basic income worse off, which is something that none of us in this Chamber want to see.

Of course, one thing that could allow us to sidestep the DWP issue is the devolution of the administration of welfare. Could the Counsel General provide an update to the Chamber on where the Government is on seeking the devolution of these powers? And, of course, having these powers in Wales won't just be advantageous when it comes to UBI, they will also allow us to craft a welfare system that is far more sympathetic and far more just than that which we currently live with.

I thank the Member for his question. I think he's wrong: I don't think it is about the devolution of powers; it's actually about the devolution of powers with the resources to go along with that, because we have had our fingers burnt many times, where things have been devolved to us, sometimes without our support, but we have not had the full devolution of the finances that are necessary for that.

But you're absolutely right that the interaction between the benefits system and the concept of a UBI go hand in hand. And what Welsh Government is committed to is actually a pilot to explore, and I think also to show, the opportunities that can actually be done. I think the First Minister has, on a number of occasions, said that the issue of the devolution of welfare benefits, or even some welfare benefits, is an area that he's interested in exploring, but has always given the caveat that you've got to have the resources to actually enable that to happen and those resources have got to be adequate as well.

Good afternoon, Counsel General, and thank you to Jack Sargeant for raising this issue and also for continuing to fly the flag for universal basic income, which I wholeheartedly support. Wales has a real opportunity here with the universal basic income to really transform lives. Not only can a universal basic income tackle the persistent and growing issue of poverty, but we can see from trials across the world that there have been positive implications for both mental health and well-being and individual freedom. 

I really want to just move away from the issues around what powers are devolved and what are not, and just focus in on the timescales that the Welsh Government has for the universal basic income pilot. We've heard about this for a few months now, I'm just wondering if we could tie down some timescales. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, listen, thank you for your comments and I agree with all the various points you made, and, of course, one of the key challenges is what actually a universal basic income is and what we mean by it. And what it is as a policy is an opportunity, isn't it, to reappraise how the welfare state has operated, and operated very successfully until more recent decades. But it is a way of looking at opportunities to actually alleviate and to eliminate poverty within our society.

In terms of the deadline, I think other Ministers have the portfolio responsibilities in terms of taking that forward. I'm sure there will be statements in due course and your comments have actually been heard. I can assure you that the interest is not a temporary one for the Welsh Government; this is a serious manifesto commitment. It will be taken forward. I'm not in a position to give you a date, but I'm sure that you will have the opportunity to ask the relevant portfolio Ministers more specifically on this in due course.