All the items are to be presented by the Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans. 

Rebecca Evans to be unmuted. Yes, she has been now. You can carry on. 

Motion NDM7852 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Corporate Joint Committees (General) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motion NDM7845 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Environment (Wales) Act 2016 (Public Authorities subject to the Biodiversity and Resilience of Ecosystems Duty) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motion NDM7844 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Equality Act 2010 (Authorities subject to a duty regarding Socio-economic Inequalities) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motion NDM7846 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Welsh Language Standards (No. 1) Regulations 2015 (Amendment) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motion NDM7848 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (Meaning of Public Body) (Wales) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motion NDM7849 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 (Meaning of Public Body) (Wales) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motion NDM7850 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft Corporate Joint Committees (Amendment of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motion NDM7847 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Children and Families (Wales) Measure 2010 (Amendment to the List of Welsh Authorities) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motion NDM7851 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:

1. Approves that the draft The Child Poverty Strategy (Corporate Joint Committees) (Wales) Regulations 2021 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 9 November 2021.

Motions moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motions. In March this year, the Senedd approved the regulations establishing four new corporate joint committees, or CJCs, in Wales. The Senedd also approved a number of additional regulations that ensured CJCs would be subject to appropriate oversight, management and conduct requirements from the start. The regulations, approved in March, formed part of the first stage of putting in place the legislative framework which CJCs would operate within, based on the principles that CJCs should be treated as part of the local government family and should operate in the same way. 

The regulations that we are debating today are part of the second stage of putting that framework in place. I am currently consulting on a third stage, and a final substantive stage is planned for next year. This staged approach, agreed with local government, ensures appropriate consideration of the extensive amount of existing local government legislation, and allows the co-development of the legislation being applied to CJCs that we are committed to. Whilst Members may have views on the principle of CJCs, it's important to note that, today, we are not debating if CJCs should be established, but how CJCs are regulated as local government bodies and public bodies in Wales.

The draft Corporate Joint Committees (General) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2021 provide for a number of technical administrative arrangements for CJCs, including the roles for certain executive officers to support the work of CJCs, as well as some general provisions in relation to CJC staff. They also provide for the functions of the CJC to be discharged by other people, for  example its staff or sub-committees. In addition, they provide for meetings and proceedings, and make a small number of miscellaneous and consequential amendments to give full effect to the provisions.  

Eight further statutory instruments have also been laid alongside the general regulations, which continue the application of these public body duties that you would expect to apply to a public body in Wales. These ensure that CJCs are brought within the scope of the Welsh Language Standards (No. 1) Regulations 2015, and enable the Welsh Language Commissioner to make a compliance notice in respect of CJCs; are liable to comply with the sustainable development and well-being duties under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015; are subject to the socioeconomic duty under the Equality Act 2010; contribute to the eradication of child poverty; have regard to the purposes of conserving and enhancing the natural beauty of an area; maintain and enhance biodiversity in the exercise of their functions; and have regard to the purposes of national parks when exercising functions in relation to or affecting land in a national park. 

The regulations we are debating today have been informed by the responses to the consultation I launched in July, and by previous consultations on CJCs. They have also been informed by the engagement activities that I and my officials have undertaken with local government and key stakeholders. The overwhelming view was that CJCs should have the same legislative and administrative arrangements as principal councils, and should be subject to the same public bodies duties. As with previous stages, the approach to the development of the CJC model continues to be one of close collaboration with local government. I'd like to take this opportunity to once again thank the local authority leaders and their officials for their constructive approach to the co-development of these regulations, and I ask Members to approve these regulations today. Diolch. 

I'm really pleased today to speak as the Conservative spokesperson for local government, and thank you, Minister, for your introduction to the regulations outlined here today. I would first of all like to talk to item 9, the Corporate Joint Committees (General) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2021. As colleagues will be aware, these regulations are connected with the establishment of the corporate joint committees in Wales by regulation under Part 5 of the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021, which doesn't sound particularly exciting, but I assure you it is wildly exciting.

Many councillors and council leaders across Wales have huge concerns with the democratic nature of corporate joint committees. Councils and councillors, of course, are democratically elected to make decisions and represent their communities, yet the introduction of corporate joint committees is likely to take powers away from those who are democratically elected to make the decisions. I'd like to remind us all here today that devolution, of course, was introduced to bring power as close to the people as possible, and I don't believe that corporate joint committees will support this at all.

It's clear to me that Welsh Government's aim with these corporate joint committees is to take power away from those democratically elected to make those decisions. In addition to those concerns, as the Minister outlined, there are some details in the regulations here today, but there are some pertinent issues that are not being addressed or properly detailed. First of all, staffing. Secondly, the cost of all this, the funding of it. How much will it cost the taxpayer, particularly because there are going to be chief executives having to be employed and there will be chief financial officers having to be employed, amongst other auditors et cetera, et cetera? Thirdly, the representation—how it will be fairly represented by individual councils and how that will be distributed across those corporate joint committees.

Llywydd, it's not often that I do quote from the Plaid Cymru manifesto. It's also not often that I support what they are proposing. Nevertheless, I would like to take the opportunity to quote directly from the manifesto from only a few months ago, in May, which says that,

'Wales' future governance should continue to involve local, regional and national tiers in decision making and delivery at the correct levels'— all good so far, of course—

'and with clear democratic accountability to the people. To this end, we will replace Labour’s four planning regions and their corresponding undemocratic Corporate Joint Committees'.

So, in light of this, Llywydd, I would be astounded if I was to hear today that Plaid Cymru would be supporting the motions here in front of us today. They've done a sterling job and have been heroic in their opposition to corporate joint committees, and I'm sure the leaders of Gwynedd, Ynys Môn, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire would also be surprised to hear any objection, or any support, should I say, to the CJCs here today. [Interruption.] They didn't actually. Check the votes with the WLGA. We cannot throw local democracy and council powers under the bus, even with the co-operation agreement in place, and I'm proud that as Conservatives we're standing up for councils and democratically elected councillors.

Moving on, I'm ever the optimist, Llywydd, but not naive at the same time. I do note that item 9 is likely to get majority support here today, and, as such, we won't be objecting to items 10 to 17, because it's right that when CJCs will be in place that they are adhering to appropriate regulations, as the Minister outlined, so they can properly function within those regulations. So, to conclude, Llywydd, I would urge all Members to respect powers for local councils and vote against item 9, which introduces further these corporate joint committees. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, thank you very much, Llywydd. It's clear that Plaid Cymru has arrived, because the Conservatives spend more time discussing the Plaid Cymru manifesto and policies than they discuss their own policies, and again that underlines, I think, how increasingly irrelevant the Conservatives are becoming in this place.

I'm pleased that Sam read the Plaid Cymru manifesto. I hope he read the rest of the manifesto to learn a few lessons as to what the Conservatives need to emulate. Yes, Plaid Cymru opposed these CJCs, but that primary legislation was passed against our wishes, and of course the focus now is to ensure that these CJCs, which will come into existence, never mind what the Conservatives do this afternoon, are introduced in the way that is in keeping with the principles that we as a party still adhere to. And if you read the co-operation agreement with the Government, you will see that we state quite clearly that we will continue—and I quote—to 'keep regional partnership working under review' and that we of course will ensure that they are 'based on local priorities', which is exactly that fact that we need to keep that link with local democracy. Now, I will also tell the Conservative spokesperson that you need to listen better when the Minister for local government answers my questions in this Senedd, because, only a fortnight ago, I asked that question on taking more responsibilities away from local government up to these CJCs, and I will again quote, to save you looking at the Record. What the Minister said in response to me was,

'There will be no shifting of responsibilities unless those requests came from local authorities themselves.'

So, don't come here to scaremonger. Yes, we are serious about ensuring that services remain as local as possible, and we will scrutinise these additional regulations that will come before this Senedd through that lens. Moving these structures does run the risk—and I agree—it runs the risk that we will create an additional tier of governance and that will bring bureaucracy and additional costs in its wake, but what you're voting for on these regulations today isn't going to change the fact that the CJCs will be established. So grow up, engage with the debate and ensure that the CJCs do operate in the way you want them to, rather than burying your heads in the sand. But I'm responding to the debate in the way that the Minister should do, perhaps, so I will stop there.

But there is a valid point on costs. The regulatory impact assessment shows that over six years, the cost could be between £10 million and £16 million, and the question is: where is that money coming from? Now, as one council leader told me, they're not in a position to second human resources to fill some of these posts because they are already under huge pressures when it comes to human resources in terms of providing core services. They're not in a position either to top slice their financial resources as local authorities, because services are under huge pressure because of the financial situation that we are all aware of. So, there is a question to be answered there and that is my fundamental question to the Minister today. The Government has insisted that these CJCs are established, so I assume, Minister, that the Government will be funding them too.

The Minister to reply to that debate—Rebecca Evans.

Thank you very much for colleagues' contributions to the debate today. Just to reiterate, really, what Llyr Gruffydd was saying there in terms of we are very much debating about how we make CJCs work today, and we're debating about putting in place the appropriate regulation, oversight and governance that you would expect of local government bodies and public bodies in Wales, rather than debating the principle of CJCs. I'm familiar with colleagues' wider concerns about CJCs, both in Plaid Cymru and on the Conservative benches, and those have been explored in quite some detail, most recently in oral questions where I was able to respond to those concerns raised by Sam Rowlands, in particular, about some of the public accountability concerns that he raised and also the democratic accountability concerns. So, I won't reiterate those points today, because they're not relevant to the specific issues that we are debating.

But, I will say on the matter of cost, the cost of a CJC will depend significantly on the choices of the constituent council members of the CJC and how they want to operate the CJC and how they'll use the flexibilities within the CJC model. For example, the flexibility for CJCs to employ or second staff and for local authorities to put staff at the disposal of CJCs. Having certain key statutory officers is an integral part of applying local government governance arrangements to CJCs and ensuring that CJCs operate effectively and appropriately. And this approach was very much tested and confirmed in the consultation that has been undertaken in regard to this work. But appointing statutory officers or any staff to support the CJC doesn't mean directly employing them. Of course, how the roles are provided will be a matter for the CJC and they might, for example, share or second staff for these purposes. I appreciate everything that Llyr Gruffydd has said about the pressures on local government; they're well understood and we'll have further discussions on that as we move towards setting our draft budget in terms of the overall settlement for local government for future years, in advance of the publication on 20 December.

But, just to reiterate, what we are talking about here today is very much about ensuring that the regulations that are in place ensure the appropriate regulation, oversight and governance of members of our local government family here in Wales. And I would ask Members, on that basis, to support the regulations.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 9. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 10. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next proposal is to agree the motion under item 11. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We move now to item 12. The proposal is to agree the motion under item 12. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 13. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We move now to item 14. The proposal is to agree the motion under item 14. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We now move to item 15. The proposal is to agree the motion under item 15. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We now move to item 16. Does any Member object the motion under item 16? No. That is therefore agreed. 

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 17, finally. Does any Member object? No. Again, the motion under item 17 is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.