3. What discussions has the Minister had with the Counsel General regarding the legal sector's contribution to the Welsh economy? OQ57269

The Counsel General and I have had a relatively recent discussion on the importance of the legal sector’s contribution to the economy. In terms of GVA, using a wider definition to include some accountancy services, the legal sector contributed £926 million to the Welsh economy in 2019. It is also, of course, of major social importance. And I should note that I'm a lawyer in recovery and I do happen to be married to a real lawyer with an actual practising certificate, so I have some personal interest in this too.

I should also declare an interest in this as a member of the Wales and Chester Circuit, being a barrister. Now, you're quite right about the contribution of the legal sector to the Welsh economy; it's a similar proportion to the agriculture sector's contribution to the Welsh economy. I'm sure, Minister, you'll agree with me that a full range of legal apprenticeships up to level 7 would boost the significant contribution of the legal sector to the Welsh economy. It would also help with sustainability with regard to rural and post-industrial areas; it would help with diversity and help encourage people who can't afford to go to university to join the profession. So, what work is the Welsh Government doing alongside the profession to use the full range of legal apprenticeships that are available to increase the already significant contribution that the legal sector is making to the Welsh economy? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Actually, part of the conversation that I did have with the Counsel General was exactly on this basis: the potential to develop apprenticeships and for paralegal occupations as well. Some of the work for those paralegals is on track to be introduced in January. The qualification route for qualified lawyers is something that we're still examining. I understand—and I think this is reasonable—that law firms that were caught up in the apprenticeship levy do not feel that they've got value for money; there's been a tax with no return in apprenticeships and I understand that concern. It's a similar concern for a range of other businesses too. What's different, of course, about the legal profession is that we don't have an undersupply of lawyers; the challenge is who accesses the legal profession and what can be done about those people from relatively under-represented parts of our society within the profession.

The alternative challenge for us, in the Welsh Government, is a sense of priority. If we put funding into degree apprenticeships for lawyers when, for example, I self-funded—I took out a loan to undertake my own course—. I had the benefit and the comfort of a training contract, but I then repaid that during my working life—the loan that I had taken out. It's about whether or not we do need to have alternative routes to qualification; it's one of the recommendations of the Thomas commission. So, we're scoping that work out within the Government and we're looking to talk to the profession about it.

But, of course, the arrangements for law firms to support people into study, they're in a different place to other parts of life, where degree apprenticeships may make a larger difference. Degree apprenticeships themselves have a good track record of getting people into higher value, higher skilled jobs. We, of course, have a significant budgetary challenge to manage, given the smash and grab on our budgets with the way that the levelling-up funds have been allocated in future. So, there are very real practical questions about what we can do, not so much about what we want to do, but the Counsel General and I remain engaged in really constructive discussions to try and find a way forward.