We'll move on now to questions from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson first—Darren Millar.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, can you explain to us why the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales has a budget of £3.3 million, please?

Thank you for the question. The constitution commission has a budget designed to enable it to carry out its important work of engagement with the people of Wales.

Thank you for that answer, Minister, but I'm afraid it still doesn't explain why the commission needs to have such a large budget. When I asked you, on the establishment of this commission, what the budget would be, you said that you would write to me. I'm still waiting for your letter—I haven't received it. But, obviously, I've managed to peek at the Welsh Government's budget, which was debated yesterday, and saw that £3.3 million has been allocated to this particular commission. Previous commissions cost around £1 million to undertake their work—and I'm referring there to the Richard commission and the Silk commission, both of which had a budget that was much less than a third of the budget for this commission. So, can I ask you again: why does the Welsh Government feel that it's necessary to spend £3.3 million on this particular piece of work, and can you provide to the Senedd, and me, in accordance with the promise that you made back in October but are still yet to fulfil, a copy of the detailed budget for this commission's work?

Well can I say firstly, if you haven't had the letter from me, then apologies for that. Of course, you have the information from the budget, and, of course, I think in previous answers I did refer to the forthcoming budget. In terms of the cost of operating a commission that is going to engage with the people of Wales, over a period of several years, on an issue that is fundamentally important to the future of Wales and the future of the UK, it seems to me absolutely right that there should be sufficient funding to enable it to do that work and to engage with the people of Wales. The engagement part of the commission's work is clearly something that is exceptionally additional to the work of some previous commissions, and is a fundamental part of actually building that consensus that I have described previously.

In respect of the actual breakdown, I suspect the problem with the breakdown at the moment is that the commission is, at the moment, in the process of developing its own strategy and its work programme and the costings of that. And I'm sure further information can be made available in due course, when we have further information about those details. But for now, the important part is ensuring that the commission is able and capable of doing work that is so fundamental to the future of Wales and the future of the UK.

Well, I'm grateful for your apology, Minister. Of course, there's a single line in the budget to cover this particular issue, and I did ask in previous opportunities in the Senedd for an explanation as to what the remuneration would be for both the chairs and the members of the commission, and I'm still awaiting that information. Of course, it's not contained in the budget that has been published. You talk about engagement; of course, the previous commissions did engage quite extensively as part of their work, and managed it within a financial envelope that is significantly different to the £3.3 million that the Welsh Government has sought to allocate.

Now, when you announced the establishment of the commission, you advised Members of the Senedd that you expected it to complete its work by the end of 2023. Can you explain, therefore, why in the budget—the three-year indicative budget that was published—there's still a further £1.1 million allocated for the 2024-25 financial year, which would be after this commission has completed its work? Why is a third of the commission's budget expected to take place after the completion of the commission's work? That seems to me to make no sense at all, or have you revised the timetable?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Can I firstly thank you for those further comments? Just to say, in respect of the remuneration, again, I'm sorry if you haven't had the letter, but, certainly, I know I had a written request from one of your Members, Mr Joel James, who asked for that information, and that information in terms of the rates of remuneration have been provided. I'm disappointed if, perhaps within your own group, an individual Member has not made available to you information that was specifically provided. I'm sure that a copy of that letter, if Mr Joel James is in agreement, could be made available to you, and the information is in that. So, I will deal with that.

In terms of the expenditure and the budget, well, the budget takes place in terms of the commission and its work, which doesn't just suddenly come to a stop. How the budget can be expended over a period of time, and the extent to which it is expended, is going to be dependent on the full work programme, but in terms of the delivery of the report, clearly there will be work that carries on from that. And I think I've made clear in previous statements as well that, of course, one of the issues is the establishment, ultimately, of a permanent constitutional commission, not this, and, of course, there would be recommendations on that and it would lead to issues around that. So, it is inevitable that it will go over the particular year timescales. The important thing was an interim report by the end of this year, a full report by the subsequent year, but, of course, those timetables may change because, as you know, debate, discussion and events around the constitution are a work in progress. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhys ab Owen. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cwnsler Cyffredinol, the cross-party Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's report on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum on the Professional Qualifications Bill pointed out that without the consent of the Senedd or Welsh Ministers, the Secretary of State or Lord Chancellor would be able to exercise regulation-making powers to amend primary legislation, including Senedd Acts. This means that the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor could potentially exercise the regulation-making powers to amend Senedd Acts and regulations made by Welsh Ministers. Indeed, Tory Ministers in London could go even further and amend the Government of Wales Act 2006, the basis of our current devolution settlement. I think we can all agree it's a matter of basic constitutional principle that the legislative competence of this Senedd should not be modified by regulations made by any Minister in London, especially this current Conservative Government. What discussion have you had, Counsel General, with Westminster Ministers about the use of secondary legislation in Westminster to potentially undermine the devolution settlement here in Wales?

Well, thank you. You do raise a very important point, and it's a point that I consider across the board in respect of the overall impact of UK legislation legislative consents, and the impact on the devolution settlement. And there are many contradictions and anomalies and difficulties in respect of each piece of legislation that is going through. I've certainly raised that in direct discussions I've had with UK Government Ministers, but I can also tell you: on every single piece of legislation that is going through, the intensity of correspondence and engagement over the issues of consent, over disputes over what may be a reserved matter, what may not be a reserved matter, are all conducted by Welsh Ministers and by Welsh Government on the basis of preserving the integrity of the devolution settlement.

It is certainly right that there are issues that arise in respect of the weakness of the Sewel convention. What I am hoping is that, as progress is being made in respect of the inter-governmental review, the actual creation of bodies and a disputes procedure, and an independent secretariat, will actually provide a mechanism for further engaging, and, I believe, actually enforcing and enhancing the Sewel convention, which has become so weakened, I believe, over recent years, because of direct, I believe, constitutional assaults from the UK Government. So, you're right to raise this point, but I think the inter-governmental arrangements that I would hope there will be further announcements on over the coming weeks and early months will actually begin to tackle part of that constitutional vacuum. I don't think it will resolve it, but I believe it may provide a mechanism for a step towards a more solid constitutional and conclusive constitutional arrangement. 

Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. I don't think I would describe the Sewel convention as weak; I think I'd probably describe it as non-existent at the moment, but there we are. Last week, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, the Lords described the overuse of secondary legislation in Westminster as dangerous for democracy. Lord Judge, the highly respected former lord chief justice, criticised the increase in secondary legislation and said that the House of Commons hasn't rejected a single piece of delegated legislation since 1979. He went on to say, 

'thousands and thousands of pages, in small print, are sent out to us every year, telling us all how we should live' our lives, unless, of course, Cwnsler Cyfredinol, you're invited to a 10 Downing Street garden party. However, I don't think we as a Parliament can ourselves be complacent when it comes to this. There are some real areas of concern that I have in this Senedd. We have seen a huge increase in the use of secondary legislation in this place. In questioning the education Minister on the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, concerns were raised that sections in the Bill gave a lesser scrutiny role to the Welsh Parliament than previously. And the building safety Act—a UK Government Bill—fully within a devolved area, that you consented to, has 17 clauses that create regulation powers for Welsh Ministers. Now, given the well-known lack of proper scrutiny within the legislative consent memoranda process, and the substantial increase in the use of secondary legislation in this place, what steps are you taking as the legal officer of the Senedd to make sure that this does not become a danger to Welsh democracy in the same way that eminent lawyers are warning about Westminster? Diolch yn fawr. 

It is a very important point in respect of the operation of parliaments across the UK, not just in respect of secondary legislation but, of course, the increased use of framework legislation, which ultimately leads to the same powers going to executives and, obviously, diminution in the roles of scrutiny. Can I just say that, on the issue of scrutiny, I have something very much in mind? I very much welcome actually the input from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee on the issue around legislative consent memoranda, and, of course, there is going to be a Business Committee review of that, and that is an area I've been certainly applying my mind and giving considerable attention to. I think the same applies in respect of the points you raise with regard to secondary legislation, and I include with that framework legislation, because I think, from the Government's side, there are two competing forces: the one is the imperative on Government to get on with legislation, to get on with implementing manifestos, but, equally so, that has to be within the framework of a parliament, where the exercise of powers by government are properly held to account, that they are transparent, and there is a capacity for proper scrutiny. Now, there are real issues of scrutiny for a variety of other reasons as well, as the Member will know, and that is, for example, the extent of legislation that is coming, the issues that arise on legislative consent memoranda and the way in which legislation is having to be responded to so quickly, particularly in the light of Brexit and, of course, rather similar issues in respect of COVID.

What I can say is—and I've said this, I think, in the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, but I can reiterate it here—I am more than happy to engage on a regular basis on those issues of scrutiny, on the discussion around those challenges that we have as not only a new Parliament, as a new democracy, but one that has also—. Each session of the Senedd has an increasing legislative role and increasing responsibilities, and we have to ensure that the democratic structure and the accountability of the Welsh Parliament is operating. There are difficult environments because of the dysfunctional constitutional arrangement we have at present within the UK, but hence the need for our own constitutional commission and also the inter-governmental review and the other considerations that are under way that recognise that dysfunction and are beginning to look at ways of creating a solution to it.

Question 3, Rhys ab Owen.

Sorry, let me get it. Sorry, I hadn't appreciated I had the third question.

You should read the agenda.

Sorry.