4. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of digital technology on access to justice in Wales? OQ57410

Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government assesses UK Government initiatives as they arise to ensure that access to justice considerations have been fully considered. Digital technology has the potential to expand access to justice, but the system has to work hard to ensure that no-one is left behind.

I thank the Counsel General for that answer, and he'll know that, during the pandemic, we've seen a real shift to using online services to allow people to access justice across Wales. It's out of necessity, and it has provided some opportunities. Without it, many more people would be affected by the delays and backlogs that we do indeed see. But we've got to bear in mind that not everyone has the ability or the means to use these services. In fact, as the Thomas commission said, it can indeed be harder for those who are digitally excluded to access legal rights. So, can I ask what conversations the Counsel General has had with Ministers in the Ministry of Justice to ensure that they are aware of the importance that we in Wales place on ensuring that all court services are accessible by people who lack digital skills, or indeed lack easy access to digital platforms, or indeed to the legal support that needs to go alongside that digital access to justice?

Thank you for the supplementary question. You raise a very important point that is an ongoing one. Of course, we do have a digital strategy for Wales, which is a programme for government commitment that makes clear that for people who cannot, or decide not to, participate digitally, there are alternative ways to access public services. Now, of course, within the courts system and certainly within our tribunals, I think our performance has been second to none, and I commented on this during the discussion on the annual report of the president of the Welsh Tribunals and how they've operated during the COVID period digitally and have been able to work very effectively, and, of course, I think some of our tribunals are very particularly suited to those types of hearings. But the point is absolutely right—we have 7 per cent of people in Wales who do not have access to the internet, and we have 23 per cent of people over 16 who are assessed as not having the necessary digital skills. So, that is a very important point in respect of access, and a lot of this has also been exacerbated by the fact that we've had UK Government court closures, which have made individuals more and more dependent on digital access, but it is very clear that there are many failings within the system that need to be identified. I have raised this and I know the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt, has also raised this, and others have, at every opportunity with the Ministry of Justice—that of course we support the benefits that can be achieved through digital access, but equally so there are real equality issues in ensuring that digital access does not become something that prevents access to justice or creates a two-tier system of access to justice.

Minister, digital technology has the potential to reshape the way that justice operates and how people access it. The courts and tribunals service is investing roughly about £1 billion to reform its systems with the aim of bringing new technologies and modern ways of working into the courtrooms, and the Ministry of Justice has created a £5 million innovation fund to promote these new ways to deliver legal support and advice through digital means. This will clearly have an impact on Welsh courts. Further to this, has the Minister assessed the range of opportunities for people to use technology to self-diagnose their problem to establish if their problem is a legal one or not?

I thank the Member for that supplementary question. You raise a number of interesting points. The first one—. Of course, the latter point you raise is: have I as a Minister actually considered doing that? Well, of course, the Member will be aware that, despite our request, justice is not devolved. Just think how much better we could actually engage digital operations, public facilities, the public services that are so integral in respect of justice issues, if it was devolved. Now that's something, obviously, that I'm looking at in conjunction with the Minister for Social Justice, to show how we could operate a justice system and better access and better justice, I believe, within a devolved situation. So, that's one area that is under way. Of course, the assessment of that has been being carried out on an ongoing basis by the Ministry of Justice. Unfortunately, the engagement with us over that tends to be rather sporadic. We raise it with Ministers when we speak. The Member will probably not be surprised to know that we still have major hurdles in accessing justice data relating to Wales. Now how do you develop and design social policy and justice policy if you don't even know what the data is in your own country? And we've raised that numerous times at every level. I think the weaknesses of the data availability disaggregation are recognised, but what's happening about it, I don't know.

What I would like to see would be a situation where there was a greater engagement with us, and a greater say in the use of resources in the actual combination of public services and court services through the use of digital facilities, but at the moment we are still very dependent on the Ministry of Justice taking decisions. For example, we have a major civil justice court in the capital of Wales in Cardiff that is not fit for purpose. It is recognised as not fit for purpose; that point has regularly been made and yet we still await a decision on having proper court facilities for families, for representatives, with all the digital and security aspects that are required. So, you hit the right points, but there is still a long way to go for the Ministry of Justice, I believe, to have a comprehensive programme in respect of the use of digital technology and also the recognition of the ongoing need for those who do not have that digital access.