The next item this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, an update on progress following the publication of 'The Slave Trade and the British Empire: An Audit of Commemoration in Wales'. I call on the Deputy Minister, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The pursuit of the goal of a more equal Wales is about realising the potential of all our people—[Inaudible.] Sorry, Dirprwy Lywydd.

We lost you for a second.

Yes, we were having some technical difficulties there.

Do you want to start again?

I'll start again. I'd only just started.

The pursuit of the goal of a more equal Wales is about realising the potential of all our people and enabling them to participate in civil society on equal terms. We know that this is a route to more cohesive communities and a more prosperous society. It also ensures the vibrancy of our culture and heritage, which is enriched by participation and engagement and which should be a celebration of our diversity. But the way in which we identify and promote our heritage also has an impact on our well-being as a society. On the one hand, it can exclude people from our national story, but on the other, it can also be a positive force that helps shape the Wales that we want. It has the potential to foster that engagement and participation, which is the foundation of cohesive communities and a prosperous economy.

Heritage is an important aspect of how people identify with where they are. It helps to provide a sense of place and of belonging. We want everyone to feel that part of their heritage story is here in Wales. That means we have to be open to telling new stories and finding new figures to celebrate. But we also need to take a critical look at what we have already identified as heritage, and be open to interpreting it afresh. This is particularly important where there are reminders of historical injustices. We have a responsibility for setting the historical narrative, and encouraging an honest and informed relationship with our history. Only by doing this can we foster the creative engagement that sustains our heritage and contributes to the vibrancy of civil society.

The audit of commemoration, led by Gaynor Legall, was an important first step in a process of taking an honest look at what we have inherited, and of recognising the need to have a balanced account of the past. The audit was always intended to be a first step, and I am glad to say that we are taking further steps along the way to that balanced and authentic account of the past that is so important if we are to achieve a heritage that is genuinely shared. The principal response to the Legall audit will be the development of clear Welsh Government policy and guidance to support local authorities and public bodies in dealing with acts of public commemoration.

We have already responded to the former Senedd Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee report, 'Set in Stone? A report on who gets remembered in public spaces', which made similar calls for clear guidance that will present a route-map for decision making relating to both historical and future acts of commemoration. This guidance will draw on good practice from elsewhere to identify the types of positive interventions that may be available. For example, is there a need to accompany existing memorials with a further narrative, explaining the wider context, or a need to consider more radical options that might involve the relocation of a memorial? What criteria should be considered when making such decisions, and how can genuine engagement with communities be achieved?

Decisions such as that taken by Carmarthenshire County Council to provide interpretation alongside the Picton monument, or by Cardiff Council to remove the statue of Picton from City Hall, remind us how difficult this can be and highlight the need for guidance. Also, of course, recognition of how few memorials there are to black, Asian or minority ethnic people, or even notable women, is a starting point for a dialogue about who we commemorate in future. The development of the guidance will itself reflect a commitment to inclusion. At its centre will be a series of facilitated workshops involving key stakeholders. Officials in Cadw have already begun the background research that will inform the guidance, and the intention is to hold the workshops early this year. The guidance will be drafted during the spring, and there will then be a full public consultation.

Meanwhile, we have already taken some actions. We have published a revised edition of the Legall audit, making minor amendments in response to feedback and new information that has emerged since it was first published a year ago, and this is available on the Welsh Government website. For memorials that have legal protection, such as listed structures, Cadw has revised all the descriptions that cross-reference to figures identified in the audit of commemoration. These new list descriptions are now publicly available through Cadw’s online map-based Cof Cymru. Cadw is also working to make use of its website to publish a rich and diverse narrative about the history of Wales. A first phase has included reviewing existing content and gathering it together to share on the website. The second phase involves commissioning external multimedia content, including video and audio. This content will be hosted on a newly developed dedicated area of the Cadw website. This will become a fully accessible space where many aspects of the diversity of our heritage can be celebrated and shared.

These actions contribute to one of the goals of the emerging race equality action plan, which calls on us to work with public bodies to fully recognise their responsibility for setting the historical narrative, promoting and delivering a balanced, authentic and decolonised account of the past. These actions address some important priorities: having information that is balanced, raising awareness, sharing knowledge and understanding, and having in place a framework that supports collective decision making for acts of commemoration. I believe that, together, they are a fitting response to the issues raised in the Legall audit and important next steps on our journey to an anti-racist Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch. Well, across the globe, slavery has been a grim and evil reality throughout most of human history. Slavery across Britain itself long predated Roman occupation and continued over many centuries afterwards. The Britons, i.e. Celts or Welsh, and Anglo-Saxons frequently kept slaves, as did the conquering Vikings, with the victor enslaving or selling the vanquished. A gruesome history also shared by many tribes and kingdoms in Africa and elsewhere.

By the time of the Norman invasion in 1066, 10 per cent of the British population were slaves. In the eighteenth century, hundreds of companies engaged in the transatlantic slave trade, shipping Africans to Caribbean colonies. Our relationship with slavery is long, complicated and intricate, and the ancestors of most people living in the UK today will have had some involvement with this. Does the Minister share my view that we must learn from the past if we're not to repeat its mistakes, that it is essential to preserve the culture and heritage of Wales, and that we should highlight history not erase it?

How does the Minister respond to the report's reference to plaques and its finding that many commemorations, be they public monuments, statues, public portraits or the names of public buildings, places and streets, are often without any accompanying interpretation? Does the Minister agree that plaques should be attached to historical monuments containing an explanation with full context, so visitors or passers-by can make their own judgments? Individuals who were memorialised can be complex, and we're glad to see recognition in the report that,

'Many had complex personal histories embodying significant changes of circumstances or views through their lifetimes.'

Does the Minister agree, and if so, how will she ensure that this attitude is consistently applied and carried into the future? For example, the report mentions Mahatma Gandhi, a hugely influential figure in the campaign for Indian independence. There's a statue in Cardiff Bay, not far from the Senedd. Although Gandhi subsequently transformed himself and abandoned racism, quotations taken from his writings and statements whilst working as an attorney in South Africa before he went back to India in 1915, include racist quotations in which, for example, he called Indians 'infinitely superior' to black Africans. In 2018, the University of Ghana removed a statue of Gandhi on this basis.

How does the Minister respond to the report's investigation of figures such as Christopher Columbus, who had no connection to Wales or Britain, on the grounds that he was highlighted as needing examination by campaigners? As the report states:

'The culpability of several of these individuals in slavery or other abuses is open to debate and interpretation. Several shifted their positions considerably as they considered issues in depth or as attitudes changed around them.'

Although the report states that William Gladstone's statues have been criticised by campaigners on the grounds that his father profited from enslaved plantation workers, it adds,

'He appears to have had no culpability in slavery personally and he became one of the leading reformers of the nineteenth century.'

How do you therefore respond to calls for statues of figures such as Gladstone to be removed, where Gladstone was a Liberal statesman who served as British Prime Minister four times and called slavery,

'by far the foulest crime that taints the history of mankind'?

The report also states:

'The record of H.M. Stanley is stained by his alleged actions and the consequences of his known actions in Africa, but his personal culpability is a matter of ongoing dispute.'

Although his reputation was damaged by his role in establishing the Congo Free State for Leopold II of Belgium, evidence shows that Stanley was unaware of Leopold's true intentions and was never implicated in the atrocities that were perpetrated against the native people. Further, his letters and diaries at this time recall his loathing of slavery and the slave trade. In fact, when I was a guest at the unveiling of his statue in Denbigh in 2011, I heard first-hand from a Congolese delegation sent over to the unveiling, who told me of their love and appreciation for him. How therefore do you respond to the public vote in Denbigh, which led to the statue being kept by a 471 to 171 margin? Do you agree that local democratic decision making such as this is preferable to any decisions imposed top down from Cardiff Bay?

Finally, as we acknowledge the complexity of history, does the Minister agree that it is important to remember the anti-slavery stance that Britain took, where, for example, the slave trade Act in 1807 abolished the slave trade, and, following this, the UK Government used both the Royal Navy and treaties to persuade other countries to end their own involvement in slavery?

I thank Mark Isherwood for those comments and questions. I think much of what he says I absolutely agree with. These islands have a long history of slavery and our part in that history has not always covered us in glory. But we do have to look at it in the context of what was happening at that time. That was part of what the whole process of the Legall audit was: to identify people that we considered, at that time in history, as being people who were philanthropists, who contributed to our society, who were wealth creators, and so on, and they gave good things to our society, but they also did, of course, lifelong harm to the nation in terms of the memories of communities, not so far back. It's quite right and proper that we look at all of that through the context of twenty-first century eyes—that we look at these people, and we say that what they did at that time they did in the course of their lives during that time, but the impact that that had on generations that came behind them should not be ignored.

People involved in the slave trade committed some terrible atrocities and some terrible injustices, and all of that needs to be recognised alongside any of the good things that those people did. I'll give you an example. Colleagues in the Chamber will know, of course, that I was born and brought up in the city of Bristol, a city whose whole economy was based at that time—. The Edward Colston statue was a symbol of that. Edward Colston was a great philanthropist in the city. He built schools, he built hospitals, he gave his name to all sorts of things around the city, and gave lots of money to that city. But that doesn't mean that people don't now recognise that the damage that he did during that time had to be recognised. The Legall audit came around as a result of some of the things that we saw around that time, following the Black Lives Matter movement and the toppling of the Colston statue, and, in fact, the toppling of statues that we've seen elsewhere. It was part of the reason why the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee looked, on the basis of that and in the wake of all of that, at how we commemorate these people from the past. So, I think it is more of a question of we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and that we look at what these historical figures did. We can commemorate the good things that they did, but we recognise the historical injustices as well, and we set them in the context.

It is not a question of the Welsh Government dictating from on high as to which of these people should be commemorated and which shouldn't. It is for us to issue guidance on how local authorities and public bodies set them in the context. And that was what happened with the Stanley statue in Denbigh. Denbigh responded as a result of a petition in that town. They had a local referendum, and that local referendum decided to retain Stanley. It isn't the intention of Welsh Government that we would override the wishes of local residents in terms of historical figures that they can relate to in their towns, but it is something that we will be saying in the guidance—that it should potentially be set into the historical context so that, as you have already said, Mark Isherwood, it is set in that context with a narrative and with a description that sets out historically how these people fit into our history. The guidance that will be produced will be produced with a number of key stakeholders, as I've said, and that will be people from the black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, it will be women, it will be people that have historical knowledge. There will be, obviously, experts from within Welsh Government.

It will also be looking at how we commemorate people going forward and into the future. Because one of the things that the audit already identified, and I've set out in my statement, is that we have a paucity of commemoration around women, around black, Asian and minority ethnic people. Certainly, the LGBTQ+ community doesn't seem to be represented in many of our commemorations. All of those things will be included in the guidance. The key to it all is that people are commemorated and recognised within the context of their time and the context in which we live now, looking back at their lives. It is not about rewriting history, it is about setting it in its appropriate context.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the update today.

I'm very conscious that I'm responding to this statement today as a white person with all the privilege associated with being born white. Though I can empathise with underrepresented groups in Wales as an ally, I cannot fully understand how much pain our complacency as a society has created by not beginning to address this issue until the brutal killing of George Floyd prompted the Black Lives Matter movement and forced us to face some uncomfortable truths about history, heritage and commemoration in Wales, as well as our responsibility, both personally and as a Senedd, to not just be antiracist, but to play our part in creating an equal Wales and call out racism. This isn't about erasing history, it is about placing statues such as these in their historical context and using them to prompt difficult conversations so that we can achieve that change.

Let us not underestimate how much of a challenge this will be, and be clear that warm words aren't enough to tackle the deep-rooted inequality and racism that remain in Wales today. And let us not think either that turning this audit into actions will be easy. As referenced by the Deputy Minister in her statement, this has been evident in the racist responses we have unfortunately seen to some actions already taken in relation to Thomas Picton by Carmarthenshire County Council, Cardiff city council and National Museum Wales. To others that are yet to begin on this journey, I'm sure the fact that work will now begin on developing guidance will be welcome, but I would be grateful, Deputy Minister, if you could please expand further on this process and when you expect this process to be completed. Further, will funding also be provided to support local authorities and public bodies in undertaking this important work in addition to the guidance?

Also, you referenced that there will be full public consultation. Do you know yet what form this will take and who will lead on this work? Further, I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister could also address what consideration has been given by the Welsh Government on how best to ease and support tensions within communities where these commemorations remain while guidance is being developed? You also referenced in your statement and in your previous response that the guidance will also consider future acts of commemoration and how best to ensure that there are more visible role models that are representative of Wales's diversity. Certainly, the unveiling of the Betty Campbell statue in Cardiff has shown the power of such commemorations. I'm sure we all loved seeing the photographs of schoolchildren surrounding that statue and being inspired by it. What plans, therefore, does the Welsh Government have to support the commissioning of further public commemorations that reflect Wales's diversity and allow future generations to see themselves positively represented in public art, culture and history in Wales?

Righting the wrongs of the past is not easy, as it forces us to face some difficult and uncomfortable truths, but we can no longer shy away from these issues, and I'm glad to see today some progress on this audit. But we cannot become complacent, and I look forward to receiving further updates in the future as this work progresses. 

Diolch, Heledd, for those comments and questions. I absolutely agree with everything that you said—your questions and the context in which you set those questions. We have all had to face, quite rightly, some very, very uncomfortable truths as we dealt with the aftermath of the murder of George Floyd and what came after that. And you're quite right that it is a tragedy that we had to wait for an incident like that before we galvanised in the way that we did in response to that. But I'm very pleased that we did that in Wales and that we did that quickly. We pulled together the board, the group that worked with Gaynor Legall to produce the audit and come up with the list that she did, leading to the recommendations that we'll be taking forward and that I outlined in my statement today.

I can't give you a definitive time yet in terms of when this will be completed. We're hoping that we will get the stakeholder group together fairly quickly, but we don't want to rush this. We do want to do it properly. We are pulling together a stakeholder group that will draft the recommendations, and, as I say, I want that stakeholder group to be as inclusive as it possibly can be so that we've got people with historical knowledge but we've also got people with knowledge about equal opportunities and equalities, which we need to be looking at for the future as well in identifying and recommending how public bodies and organisations identify people that we commemorate in the future.

We did have the purple plaque scheme, of course, in Wales, which was I think the only nation in the UK that had a particular and dedicated scheme looking at how we commemorate remarkable women in Wales. I'm very proud of the fact that one of those purple plaques is in my constituency, commemorating Ursula Masson, who set up the Wales women's archive. It was one of the things that I remember when I was first elected. The constituency that I represent is a fascinating constituency with an incredible history, but very, very few women, if any, are commemorated in it. One of the first things that I did when I was elected was to draw up a pamphlet about the remarkable women of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, because so many of those women were integral and essential to the prosperity of that constituency. They were the power and the support behind the Merthyr rising, for instance. So, we have to look at all strands of equality. We have to look at those women, those black, Asian and minority ethnic people in our communities, and LGBTQ communities, that have made enormous contributions to our society, and part of the guidance will be for looking at that in terms of the types of people that we would commemorate. But I would expect and I would hope that those commemorations and the recommendations that come forward would be driven from the bottom up, so it would be local communities themselves that identify people that they want to commemorate. 

In terms of the public consultation, I would very much expect the stakeholder group to be setting out its recommendations about how that consultation should take place. But I would want that consultation to be as thorough as it can be, to be as full as it can be, to be as easily accessibly as it can be, so we have to look at all the options that are available to us to enable that to happen. I have to say, I was very encouraged by the fact that when the Legall audit was initially announced, the responses that we had to it were overwhelmingly positive in terms of what we were trying to do. Yes, you're right, Heledd, there was some reaction against it, as there always will be when we do anything like this, as there was when we declared Wales a nation of sanctuary and so on. But I take from that the positives. The positive responses that we had back from that far outweighed the negatives.

In terms of financial support, in response to the committee's report, we have spent quite a bit, obviously, on getting to the point that we're at now. We have funded that, we funded the audit, we funded the revised edition and so on, and we will, obviously, be funding the stakeholders engagement, and we will be funding the public consultation. What we have not been able to commit to—and I'm not saying that we will not revisit this at any given point in time—is we haven't been able to commit to what the impact of possible removal of monuments or removal of paintings, rededications, reinterpretations and so on would, because it's difficult to know yet how much that would be and what the extent of that would be. So, we agreed in principle with the committee, and I stand by that. We're not saying that we wouldn't help to support and to fund that, but we couldn't put a figure on it now, and we can't commit to that without knowing what the extent of that might be.

In terms of what we do within our communities, Heledd, I think part of our race equality action plan is about looking at that and about how we move towards an anti-racist Wales. My colleague Jane Hutt is doing amazing work with her team on that, and we will hear further reports from her on the work that we will be doing and continue to do in our communities to develop that race equality action plan.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. My constituency has the pleasure and the honour to host the statue of Betty Campbell, and because it has been created whilst Betty really is a living memory, she was able to draw on the evidence from people who'd worked with and trained with Betty, who'd campaigned with Betty, or who had lived with Betty, and all the work she did to really drive forward her passion for educating the next generation, and also her insistence that our history and culture has to be relevant to everyone in Wales, not just the dominant ruling class, and that black history is not just for the month of October, but all year round, which underpins our modern Welsh curriculum. It also starts to rectify the shocking absence of any statue of any real-life women anywhere in Wales. How did that happen? Well, we women all know how that happened. But, anyway, that's what we have to combat.

Some statues that litter our landscape commemorate dignitaries that either people today have never heard of or, on investigation, reflect parts of our past that we have little to be proud of. I think that's less true in Wales than it is, say, in London, but I'd like to explore with you how the Legall audit will allow us to address ignorance about the important contribution made by past heroes and heroines, whether of local or national importance, or how we're going to have an orderly removal or re-evaluation of people we no longer want to celebrate.

Thanks for those questions, Jenny, and I think they're very important points, that we have commemorations of people in the past—. I go back to my answers to Mark Isherwood's points—we have people that we have commemorated in the past that we wouldn't commemorate today, for all the reasons that we know. And I think the importance of identifying these people, which is what the audit did, and setting them back against the full historical context, not just that these were great people, but that these were people that did x, y and z, and we need to interpret that—. And that is very much what the guidance is about, how we reinterpret—not rewrite history, but reinterpret, in the context, the appropriateness of what people did and the lives that they lived that led them to be commemorated in the first place.

So, I hope very much that that is exactly what the guidance will do, and will give that steer to local authorities and other public bodies, in the same way, as I say, I hope that guidance will also steer local authorities and public bodies towards identifying how we can commemorate people now. So, the example of Betty Campbell is a classic—the fact that we have this black woman, from your constituency, Jenny, who was a legend in her own lifetime. She was an elected representative, she was dearly loved by her pupils and people that were associated with her in her community, and as a result of that, that kind of drive from that local community to have Betty commemorated is very much what I want to see for the future—that our local communities drive the future commemorations, people that give back to their communities, who have made a difference to the lives of the people in their communities. And I very much hope that we will see more women, that we will see more black, Asian and minority ethnic people, and we might, for the first time, see somebody from the LGBTQ+ community being commemorated in a statue in our capital city or elsewhere in Wales. That's very much my hope, and very much what the purpose of this guidance is about delivering.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.