4. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Social Justice regarding supporting employers who are considering trialling a four-day working week? OQ57469

Our officials continue to work together on all matters, including this subject. Where employers have viable proposals for a shorter working week, we will consider what we can do to assist them through our business support and advisory services.

I'm very grateful for your answer, Minister, and as we've discussed this afternoon, there is a four-day week pilot being launched in the UK, in partnership with the think tank Autonomy and 4 Day Week Global. Could I stress the importance of these trials to learn, and could I ask you, Minister, what conversations both you and the Minister for Social Justice have had with the think tank Autonomy and 4 Day Week Global about supporting Welsh employers who may be interested in this trial? Given your answer to the previous question, Minister, will you also commit to looking at the findings of this trial and reporting back to the Senedd with a view to holding an extended trial here in Wales? Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you for the comments. The Minister for Social Justice is leading on this as a policy area of work, and my officials will be working alongside hers in doing so. I think it's worth pointing out that we're interested in a variety of different forms of more flexible working, both the place that people work, the hours that people work and how they work those hours. Now, some businesses are already doing some of this. We know that some countries are already piloting different measures. Some people manage to compress their hours into a shorter number of days without losing any hours or pay; other people are looking at working fewer hours, and whether you can actually get a more productive workforce as a result.

Our officials are aware that we're expecting further reports around the four-day week, including the work that Autonomy are undertaking, and I understand some of that work is being done with the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales. So, we remain actively interested in this area of policy formulation, but as I say, if there are businesses that want to trial a four-day working week, we would be interested in having a properly constructive conversation about how that would fit into the work we're already doing, whether we could support them, and how then we take on board the learning that comes from those, to see whether it could be applied more generally, whether in public services or, indeed, the wider economy, but to work alongside our partners in doing so. I should also point out my officials are in contact with the Scottish Government as they themselves are looking to implement a pilot in this area too, as I'm sure the Member's aware.

Thank you, Minister. Let me take it a little further. Minister, many employers already offer flexible working conditions, recognising that organisations can very often benefit from arrangements that respond to people's lifestyles, family arrangements and responsibilities. Has the Minister reached out to organisations that offer more flexibility to understand the evidence of those benefits, and if so, what does it tell him? Thank you.

Yes, we do have regular conversations with businesses and business organisations around what used to be called agile working and is sometimes called flexible working. But it's about the different working patterns that can suit workers and businesses. It's also worth reminding ourselves that, for some people, that flexibility is a bit of a mirage. There are far too many Welsh workers who work in an environment where they don't have those choices to make, so greater flexibility should benefit all of us, and it's not—. When I was a younger man in the world of work, flexible working was almost always a conversation around women and childcare, and actually, it's a much broader conversation that we should have about the whole workforce and how we can get a more productive workforce to take account of the change that has been accelerated through the pandemic, with many people, men and women, thinking again about the value they get from work and the value they get from other parts of their life, too.

A work-life balance is just as important to me as, indeed, it is to other people in the economy as well. So, I'm interested in what we can do alongside businesses. I'm also interested to see if the UK Government really is going to take a step forward in some of its broader and fluffier manifesto pledges around flexible working, because if flexible working is going to be made easier and more easy to attain, then, actually, the law is one way of doing it. The other, of course, excellent way that the Member will be aware of, I'm sure, as a British Medical Association member in the past, is actually that highly unionised sectors tend to have better terms and conditions and a much better and more enlightened attitude to flexible working, so if you want more flexible working in your workplace, joining a union would be a good place to start. 

Question 5 [OQ57475] is withdrawn. Question 6, Laura Jones.