The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Item 8 this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on Welsh resources. I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Motion NDM7912 Siân Gwenllian

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes the numerous examples of wealth cultivated from Welsh resources being enjoyed outside of Wales, such as Crown Estate assets, renewable energy, food production and tree planting on agricultural land.

2. Agrees:

a) that this represents a historic and contemporary trend of extraction and exploitation of Welsh resources by outside interests;

b) that these assets, and their benefits, should be retained in Wales, and for the benefit of all people living in Wales.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. This debate is focused around possibility, about how much potential is embedded in our nation and natural resources, but a potential kept tantalisingly out of our reach. I'll focus my remarks, in opening our debate, on actions we could take to address the climate and nature emergencies and fulfil our energy potential.

Let's consider the Crown Estate. There's a theme that will come up repeatedly in this debate that things are different in Scotland. In that nation, the Crown Estate was devolved to the Scottish Government in 2017. Were we to follow the same path, lucrative revenues from Crown Estate leases would go to the Welsh Treasury instead of Westminster and, indeed, the Queen's coffers. Instead, the Crown Estate's control over our sea bed and large tracts of land means Wales could lose out on a green goldrush that's currently benefiting Scotland. Some estimates show that the UK Government could raise up to £9 billion over the next decade alone from auctioning sea bed plots to windfarm developers—all potential, all money that is passing us by. The Crown Estate's lands generated £8.7 million in revenue last year, and the valuation of the Crown Estate's Welsh marine portfolio has increased from £49.2 million to £549.1 million. This is money that would enable Wales to build and develop our own Welsh renewable energy industry and retain wealth to fund public services rather than selling off our precious assets to the highest foreign bidder. It's outrageous that these resources are locked away from us and benefit others instead, because not only is the Crown Estate preventing local ownership of Welsh land and taking revenue out of Wales, it's also supporting other economies to profit from Welsh assets.

The Crown Estate paid the UK Government £345 million in 2019-20. The estate's net revenue fell by 29.9 per cent in 2020 because of the pandemic, though the monarch did not see a decrease in the sovereign grant, as the grant does not fall when profits decrease, even though it does go up when profits increase. And all the while, the people who are suffering as a result are the people of Wales. It follows, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we should renew calls for the full devolution of energy powers, since we're currently stymied by an inadequate grid infrastructure and a regulatory regime that demands more strategic thinking. We need to control and to benefit from our country's natural resources and have the ability to develop larger projects if we are to deliver on net zero and deliver for our people and our communities. Because even the cost-of-living crisis that's on the horizon will be made worse in Wales by the fact that we lack powers over natural resources. One of the core ironies of the UK new liberal energy market is that it sees state-backed energy companies from across mainland Europe earn revenue using Wales's resources, which, in turn, helps to fund their public services back home. Wales as a proxy place, an entity that benefits others, not itself.

And on this same issue, I'll close by saying a word about tree planting. Wales's route to net zero includes a target of planting an additional 180,000 hectares with trees by 2050, but concerns have come to light about Welsh farms being purchased by multinational corporations from outside Wales to plant trees as a way of offsetting their carbon emissions. Again, this locks our landscapes under the control of people who may never set foot in Wales. And this tree planting may impact gravely on food production, social considerations and the wider environment. George Monbiot has referred to it as the great climate land grab, while the academic Dr Thomas Crowther describes it as mass corporate tree planting damaging nature. It's like something out of a dystopian novel. The Welsh Government has acknowledged that there's a problem here. It's a phenomenon that's part of a wider global trend. And surely, the environmental impact assessment requirements need reviewing to strengthen protections for human, agricultural, social and even linguistic considerations. In Wales, Dirprwy Lywydd, we are as rich in natural resources as we are with our culture and history. Those natural resources are currently being used as a means of impoverishing our potential. We cannot let this great gains grab continue. I look forward to hearing the debate.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I now call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James, to formally move the amendment.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Agrees that maximising the benefits of natural resources in Wales is best achieved in a reformed United Kingdom in which decisions affecting Wales are made in Wales.

2. Recognises our global responsibility to manage natural resources sustainably, working in local communities and with international partners.

3. Regrets the UK Government’s chaotic mismanagement of our relationship with the European Union and its effect on how the economic benefits of natural resources in Wales are distributed, including the impact on rural communities and our response to the climate emergency.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Diolch. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. Of course, our Welsh resources play a crucial role in supporting Welsh jobs. For example, RWE, which operates around 3 GW of energy generation in Wales across 12 sites, has a diverse portfolio of onshore and offshore wind, hydro and gas, and directly employs around 200 people at their offices in Baglan, Llanidloes, Dolgarrog and the port of Mostyn. In fact, the Welsh Conservatives want to build on the benefits of making Wales net zero by creating 15,000 new green jobs.

Now, we believe that the Crown Estate plays a major and key role here in Wales, such as management of around 65 per cent of the Welsh foreshore and riverbed, and this includes a number of ports, such as Milford Haven, ownership of over 50,000 acres of Welsh uplands and common land, and they're responsible for around 250,000 acres of mineral-only interests and manage the rights to deposits of gold and silver.

Now, as the Secretary of State for Wales has stated last month—and I agree with him—'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' So, I would be grateful if, today, Plaid Cymru could actually provide any meaningful evidence that the Crown Estate is not operating effectively.

Now, I have done my research on this, and highlights that I've taken are this: for example, during 2021, thanks to the Crown Estate, the cumulative operational capacity in the offshore wind sector increased to 9.61 GW. The outcome of round 4 provided the potential for up to 8 GW of capacity. The valuation of the marine portfolio increased significantly—[Interruption.]—you'll have your turn in a minute, Minister—from £49.2 million to £549.1 million. A milestone moment was achieved for the Welsh offshore wind sector, through the signing of an agreement for lease for the proposed 96 MW Erebus floating wind demonstration project. 

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, go on.

Why does it work for Scotland and it wouldn't work for Wales?

Well, let's be honest, the Welsh Government don't really—. If you think about it, you quite often—. Here, we hear so much against the UK Government, we even hear things against the Crown. So, for me, why is it that you think because it's working in Scotland it would work here? It is—. Rhun, please tell me: where is it not working here?

Well, if you will take another intervention, Crown Estate Scotland has just issued leases for 25 GW—a staggering amount of offshore wind generation—because they're driven to do it because they have the ultimate gain out of that. You're driven to do it because you have the initiative and you have the powers to do it. That's why it works.

Where I would agree with you is that Welsh Government are not particularly driven to do anything as regards this, but there we go. [Interruption.]

A milestone moment was achieved for the Welsh offshore wind sector, through the signing of an agreement for lease of the proposed—. Oh, I've already said that. Continuous opportunity to access the sea bed for wave or tidal stream projects have been offered, and 683,000 tonnes of marine aggregates delivered to our Welsh ports. In fact, there is actual real and documented evidence of the Crown Estate absolutely working for the best interests of Wales. They grant landowners rights over the foreshore at Rhyl to Denbighshire County Council to assist in a 600m £27.5 million seafront flood defence scheme to protect 1,650 homes in the east of the town, and work, for example, with the Welsh Government to support its work on the implementation of the Welsh national marine plan.

The Crown Estate is making an invaluable contribution to the management of our resources in Wales, so why risk that success by burdening this failing Welsh Government administration that obviously is propped up by Plaid with even more responsibility? Your coalition should focus on a mess of the Welsh Government's own making. You target to plant 43,000 hectares of new trees by 2030, rising to 180,000 hectares by 2050, and yet that could see the afforestation of 3,750 Welsh family farms.

Now, when I raised concerns about this in the Senedd, Jeremy Miles MS, Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, advised that meeting woodland creation targets should not affect communities nor change the type of landowners, yet it is. The proof is piling. Valleys are shifting to vegetation, forests are forcing out farmers. Figures obtained by the Farmers Union of Wales have shown that 75 per cent of the afforestation applications in Wales for over 50 hectares of planting are from charities and private companies based in England. There has been a 450 per cent increase in afforestation environmental impact assessment applications to NRW from 2015 to 2021, and yet only 20 per cent of applications were from private individuals or businesses based here in Wales.

We are heading in the same direction as New Zealand, where their emissions trading scheme led to a rapid surge in the purchase of good farmland by carbon investors seeking to sell carbon offsets in the future through forestry creation. I understand that, within a three-week period, 80,000 stock units have been lost in the southern part of the North Island to tree planting, two thirds of which is owned by foreign companies and will cost the area in the region of $35 million due to lost productivity. That is not the future I want for Wales, so we will be voting against the motion and amendment today. But I would conclude by asking this Senedd to work cross-party to pursue the idea of establishing a just transition commission, to ensure the burden of decarbonisation does not fall unequally on our rural communities and have a negative impact on the historically thriving Welsh language in rural Wales, and I will repeat: we are much better off to leave the Crown Estate looking after us in Wales, as they do so well.

May I start by declaring an interest that I am a county councillor in Carmarthenshire? I'm extremely pleased to contribute to this debate. The exploitation of Wales's natural resources by Westminster is an emotional and historic issue. That kind of extractive economy has been in place for centuries: our coal, slate, water, electricity, homes for tourists, and, more recently, our agricultural land for tree planting. The physical scars of this destruction still scar our landscapes through the coal tips, the slate piles, the reservoirs, the empty, unlit holiday homes, and in the trees were once there were communities.

In all of these examples, the wealth of our natural resources has been extracted from Wales, whilst leaving us one of the poorest nations in Europe. But think how rich Wales could be if we had legislative control over these natural resources. As a matter of principle, in my view, at the core of all of our policies as a Senedd, we should build community wealth and community ownership of the natural economy and capital of Wales.

Let us consider the Crown Estate resources, as we've heard already, as an example. In my view, the territorial assets of the Crown Estate should be devolved to this place, bringing our natural resources and the rents charged closer to home in order to generate income that can be used for the benefit of the people of Wales. We could then use those profits from the estate to respond to the economic and social priorities of Wales.

The Crown Estate, as we've heard, owns some 65 per cent of the sea bed and coastal lands in Wales. According to a recent estimate, these resources are worth some £600 million. Imagine, for just a second, the profits that could be generated to Wales through investing in exciting green energy proposals such as tidal lagoons and offshore wind turbines and so on. At the moment, it's the Crown Estate that holds the rights to these sites. It's only when they are managed by Wales and its people that we can distribute and use the Welsh natural resources and economic rents accruing from their use in a way that would benefit our communities.

After all, the Crown Estate is already devolved to Scotland, and has been since 2017, and they benefit from some £12 million per year to spend on health, education, public transport, green energy and so on and so forth. The Crown Estate in the hands of the people of Wales would give us a long-term source of funding that would allow us to invest in our future and to deliver our climate change objectives.

Let me next turn to water, which is an exceptionally emotional issue for us in Wales. I need only refer to Tryweryn to understand the impact the drowning of Capel Celyn had on our psyche as a nation. Millions and millions of litres of water are extracted from Wales and sent over the border every day. The current water protocol, which outlines the relationship between the Welsh Government and the Westminster Government ensures that Westminster has a veto over decisions relating to water in Wales. We cannot and we should not settle for the empty pledges of Westminster, and with fears of water shortages growing and periods of drought likely to be more common in the future, then it's very possible that water will become a very valuable resource to us. We must, therefore, have a legal agreement that we should never destroy Welsh communities again for the water needs of elsewhere, that any decisions on meeting those needs should be made here by the Welsh Government in consultation with local communities. 

I want to conclude by mentioning electricity. Wales produces twice as much electricity as it uses. The rest is exported. In Europe, only France, Germany and Sweden export more electricity than Wales. But the problem is, despite our strength in this area, there is very little benefit to the people of Wales, with some third of homes suffering fuel poverty and our people facing the highest fuel costs in the UK. That, Llywydd, is not acceptable.

I will conclude with this brief paragraph. For a future where Wales is not squeezed to provide its resources to the world whilst its own people suffer, then we must ensure that our nation and our people have control over our most valuable asset, namely our natural resources. Let us not allow a legacy for future generations, such as our coal tips and water reservoirs, of opportunities lost, that are painful scars of the way in which Wales has been exploited over centuries. It's time for that to come to an end. It's time for us to have full control of those resources on Welsh land. 

When I travel along north Wales, either by rail or road, walk the coastal path or visit the beautiful seaside resorts, the view out to sea is of wind turbines, and those turbines are owned by German company RWE, who generate a third of all Wales's renewable electricity. They lease the land from the Crown Estate. BP have won the right to develop more wind turbines on the Irish sea after the Crown Estate auctioned off more of the area, making millions of pounds in rent over the next decade. Unlike in Scotland, the Crown Estate is not devolved in Wales, and so this money, generated by Welsh natural resources, is not reinvested directly into the delivery of improved infrastructure that will benefit the people of Wales, nor is it used to ensure prices are kept at a rate ordinary people can afford. French publicly owned EDF sells electricity to the UK at a high price. That is about to increase by 54 per cent. But, in France, the Government has ensured it is capped by 4 per cent. In Europe, and in countries that have their own nationally owned companies, the price is a third lower than in the UK.

We are surrounded by companies making profit for shareholders, but, sadly, this follows a long history of Wales's natural resources being plundered whilst the interests of the Welsh people are cast aside. Whether it be coal, water or wind, this is a pattern that must come to an end. The energy crisis we now face demonstrates how a total imbalance exists in the system. How can it be right that, whilst people across Wales struggle to heat their homes, BP and Shell continue to make billions of pounds in profit and their North sea operations paid zero tax for several years? The entire system benefits a few very rich shareholders at the expense of the many.

Privatisation of the UK's energy grid, the national grid, is ripping off customers. Twenty-five per cent of energy bills are paid out to network companies. This is used to line the pockets of shareholders, with over billions of pounds paid out in dividends. We need to be harnessing our own natural resources to create renewable energy for the people of Wales, and I firmly believe that public ownership will be necessary to address this imbalance, and preferably direct energy, and not sleeving it into the national grid for them to make profit. And we know this is possible. In my region of North Wales, energy projects in Abergwyngregyn have a social element built into them to ensure profits from the hydroelectric scheme benefit the local community, and the award-winning Swansea Community Energy and Enterprise Scheme is a community-owned solar project, working to provide cleaner and more affordable electricity for each building, as well as a valuable education resource for the local community, and it's a shining example of what can be achieved.

But managing natural resources effectively is not just about energy production; it's about protecting what Wales has to offer for the benefit of today's generations and those yet to come, and this takes significant planning. It is important that we begin to put in place a well-thought-through strategy in which permission is sought for land use. Land is one of our biggest resources, and currently it is also being bought up by large businesses to negate their corporate responsibility through carbon offsetting, and the people of Wales should decide how best to use our land and should be the ones to benefit from that. In summary, we need a reformed United Kingdom in which decisions that impact Wales are made in Wales, and the powers to make decisions on Wales's natural resources should be devolved to Wales so that we can forge a path that ensures our resources are used for the benefit of the many and not the few. Thank you.

No matter your economic theories or beliefs, I think it's difficult to argue that Wales doesn't have an extractive economy. There are historic and contemporary trends of economic extraction and exploitation of Welsh resources by outside interests. The coal industry is a perfect historical example of that resource extraction. Wales powered the world, the first £1 million cheque signed around the corner from this Senedd, but all that coal shipped out and the money made elsewhere. We are poorer now because of the systems that allowed for economic extraction and left behind little wealth for the people of Wales. The Institute of Welsh Affairs has called this an economic coma that Westminster has created. George Monbiot has previously described Wales as a classic extractive economy, as our infrastructure maps resemble a series of drainages that flow towards the ports and borders that ultimately empty Wales of its wealth for the benefit of another.

We can see as well that Westminster still handles 45 per cent of Welsh expenditure, with no guarantee that it will be spent in line with the needs and desires of the people of Wales. And there are many more examples, more contemporary examples, where wealth is being cultivated from Welsh resources, but then enjoyed outside of Wales, with little to no benefit to Welsh people or the Welsh economy, whether that's through the Crown Estate, renewable energy extraction or food production and tree planting on agricultural land. And here's some food for thought: Wales represents 4.7 per cent of the UK population, but in 2020 we only received 2 per cent of the UK research and development budget. We also represent 6 per cent of railway track mileage, while receiving only 1 per cent of the current Network Rail budget. This is before even considering the impact of HS2. And the list goes on. Letting this tradition of an extractive economy continue will only be of further detriment to our economy and the livelihoods and living standards of Welsh citizens.

Many Members in this Chamber will also be aware of another form of extraction that is happening right now. We've spoken about it in this Chamber, and the economy Minister recently produced a strategy to tackle it, and that is the brain drain. We must improve our efforts to retain our young people and skilled talent in Wales and the assets they bring to the country. We cannot thrive if we cannot remedy the brain drain. There has been a historic trend and ongoing problem of out-migration of young people and talent from Wales into England, other parts of the UK, and the rest of the world. The 'Strategy for Rural Wales', written by the Welsh Council 50 years ago, in 1971, discussed the need to address the out-migration of young people from rural Wales.

In 2017, Wales was tenth out of 12 UK regions in terms of graduate loss. For example, it is thought that roughly 75 per cent of all young people in Wales that want to go into medicine will end up working for NHS England. When ambitious young people and talent are continually migrating from certain areas in Wales or Wales as whole, it makes it harder to pursue economic recovery, and it threatens Welsh access to skills and talents that would help build a sustainable economy. Addressing this issue is nuanced, however, as much of the data collection on the brain drain, such as graduate surveys or NHS patient data, do not detail why people have moved out of Wales, and out-migration from rural Wales is likely to be motivated differently to out-migration from Cardiff. To tackle this issue, we must improve our understanding of the causes of out-migration.

But we must take a more active role in doing this. The Scottish Government, for example, have commissioned and published research into factors influencing migration decisions in Scotland. Financial incentives could be used to retain labour in Wales, as has been done in Scotland, by reducing repayments on student loans, for example, which would essentially act as a reduction in the increasing tax rates that recent graduates have been facing following national insurance and council tax increases. Scotland has managed to reverse its brain drain to the rest of the UK in recent years, with more people moving from the rest of the UK into Scotland than the other way around.

To close, Llywydd, assets and their benefits, be they resources or people, should be retained in Wales, and for the benefit of all people living in Wales. Until we ensure that that is the case, then Wales will continue to fail in reaching its potential.

The Minister now to contribute to the debate. Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate.

As a Labour Government, we believe that the state has a vital role in making sure wealth in the economy is distributed fairly. A more equal distribution of wealth goes hand in hand with prosperity and fair work. We do not believe in casting outside interests as a convenient enemy, however. We live in an interconnected world where many of the most pressing challenges we face can only be addressed through exchange and co-operation between people and nations.

It is deeply damaging to the interests of working people for public figures to cultivate a sense of grievance and division for the purpose of short-term political advantage. We should instead be offering real and practical solutions to the disadvantages people face, because ultimately those solutions will benefit us all, both here in Wales and around the planet we all share.

We absolutely share the concern expressed in the original motion that Welsh communities have been disadvantaged economically, including through the extraction of wealth from natural resources, and that such disadvantages require Government action to address them. We do not, however, believe it is right or responsible to seek to suggest that the fate of Welsh communities is determined by historic patterns of sectarian conflict, or that such claims reflect the complex history of Wales in any meaningful way. Nor do such claims offer any practical solutions to the issues raised.

The specific examples of wealth extraction raised in the Plaid Cymru motion are real issues on which the Welsh Government is taking action, as recent publications and statements on energy, forestry and net-zero have all been put before the Senedd. The challenge we face in delivering the change we wish to see does not come from hostile foreign actors, but from deficiencies in the current devolution settlement, the impact of the wide-ranging changes in the policy environment created by the exit from the European Union, and chaos in both of these and many other areas being inflicted on this country by the inept and disgraced Conservative Government in Westminster.

A sense of victimhood or a close-fisted economic policy and hostility directed towards others will not secure local ownership and control of natural resources, nor fair work and prosperity for our communities. Nor will it attract and retain the local or the global talent that we need here in Wales.

My colleague the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution has put forward radical, practical proposals for constitutional reform to the United Kingdom, so that more of the decisions affecting Wales, such as how to distribute the revenues raised by the Crown Estate in Wales, are made here in Wales. These could, of course, be taken forward now. Just to explain to our colleagues on the Conservative benches, our relationship with the Crown Estate here in Wales is very good, and they do indeed manage a large number of resources here in Wales. What they are not able to do is give us back the revenues generated by that resource, nor take direction from the Welsh Government about the exploitation of that resource. So, Janet was right to read out the large number of things the Crown Estate does well; what she fails to understand is that all of the profit from that goes straight back to Westminster and none of it comes here. That is clearly what we want devolved to Wales, so I think that's just an essential misunderstanding in the research the Member says that she has done.

Failing that, the election of a new Government in Westminster would of course provide a further opportunity to reform the United Kingdom in a way that makes us stronger in the face of our domestic policy challenges, and stronger in the face of the global challenges that confront us all, not least that of climate change and biodiversity loss. I've lost count, Llywydd, of the number of times I've had to explain to Janet Finch-Saunders that you can't agree that there's a climate emergency and then trash every single policy necessary to make any difference to that. I won't repeat them here, but Members will know that there are many times on the record where I've had to school the Member opposite that she cannot just get on every bandwagon and then oppose every policy designed to make that happen.

There is an irony also in the opposition motion that the arguments put forward mirror those made by some of the campaign to withdraw the UK from the European Union: the sense of grievance against others and a promise of plenty once those foreign powers have been put back into their rightful place. Of course, the reality is far more complex, and our communities and economy remain closely connected to those of our European neighbours. The economic disruption that has resulted from the UK Government's chaotic handling of our relationship with the EU has disadvantaged exactly those communities that were promised a better future as a result, such as Wales's farmers and fishers. And this has been used as a means of critically undermining institutions that we rely on to respond to the global challenges of our time, from Erasmus and the convention on human rights, to emissions trading and transnational nature conservation through the EU's LIFE scheme. I would take this opportunity, Llywydd, to urge the UK Government to get the consultation on the emissions trading scheme out and live as soon as possible. None of this is inevitable, but it is perhaps possible to predict that a prospectus based on false premises would neither attempt nor succeed to secure the benefits being promised by those putting it forward.

Llywydd, while the struggle for equality is real, Wales's future is not determined by the injustice of the past nor by the machinations of outside interests. A better future in which the benefits of Wales's rich natural resources are shared fairly is within our grasp if we are prepared collectively to seize it; a future in which Wales's natural resources are safeguarded for our future generations and in line with our global responsibilities, fostering strong communities and economic resilience in a turbulent world. We are taking action as a Government, working with communities and businesses in Wales, as well as with other Governments and international partners, to bring about this future, and we will fiercely resist claims that setting communities against each other is anything other than a spurious strategy for short-term political advantage, against the interests of the people we are all here to serve and against the interests of the natural environment on which we all rely across the globe. Diolch. 

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you for all of the contributions. I will process the comments made by the Minister and return to those perhaps towards the end of my contribution here.

I and my fellow Members on the Plaid Cymru benches believe in Wales. We are ambitious for Wales, and I hope that everybody in this Siambr would say that they, too, agree with that aim. But what differentiates us on these benches here, I think, is our vision for a confident, fair and prosperous Wales that is normally independent, that can do what is usual in terms of using its strengths and its resources as the foundation for its future. But the final point there is one of those topics of discussion as people weigh up their relationship with this debate on the future of Wales. Some will ask with genuine interest, in seeking a response, 'What are our resources? Do we have resources of value here in Wales?' Others—I'm looking at the benches opposite, unfortunately—will use it as a statement more often than not. They will say, 'We have no resources', or to put it plainly, 'We don't have anything worth having, so forget about a better future.' The debate this afternoon, I think, has been a way for us to discuss what our resources are and what our potential is, as Delyth Jewell said in her opening words, and in identifying some of those resources, how they can be managed for the benefit of the people of Wales and to prevent the kind of exploitation, yes, that we have unfortunately experienced far too much of over the years.

This wasn't tabled as a debate about independence. Yes, we on the Plaid Cymru benches are crystal clear in our version of an independent Wales, and our resources, the careful management of those resources for the benefit of all the people of Wales, form a big part of that. But, of course, controlling those resources as best we can, stopping exploitation, often by others outside Wales, of the resources that we have, I'd argue, is a pretty important element, even in the sub-optimal constitutional position that we find ourselves in now. And I'd hope everybody would agree with that, too.

But how interesting it is that, in its 'delete all' amendment, Welsh Government decides to pitch in with a defence of the current constitutional position, welcoming, in effect, the limiting of control over our resources. It's a topsy-turvy statement, that amendment, saying that the way to get most control over our resources is by not being in ultimate control of them. They say we're best served in the UK, with decisions affecting Wales made in Wales, when the same amendment says how appallingly badly the UK Government does things.

Only today in the House of Commons, the UK Secretary of State for Wales said there's no public appetite for devolution of the Crown Estate in Wales. I know devolution of the Crown Estate is something the Minister now warmly supports, and I appreciate her comments on that today, but let me tell you—let me translate for you, perhaps—what the Secretary of State meant today. What he meant was that the UK Government has no appetite for devolving the Crown Estate to Wales. As we've heard argued today, devolution of the Crown Estate would bring huge benefits to Wales, as Scotland is seeing—that staggering 25 GW of leased energy recently published by Crown Estate Scotland is quite remarkable. 

I think it's very revealing that what I took out of the Member for Aberconwy's comments was that she believes we are not capable of being in control of those resources. I'll welcome it if she wants to put up a defence, but what I heard was that she does not believe we are capable of making good use of the devolution of Crown Estate powers.

Thank you for taking an intervention. Isn't it a fact that where we have devolution on all the powers with this Welsh Government here now—health, education, transport, infrastructure; I could go on, Rhun—if you have a look at how we have gone backwards in many of those, the failings are evident for the people of Wales, and indeed Aberconwy, to see?

I'll immediately ask if you want to come back on this. Are you saying now that you would like to get rid of devolution because you don't like some things another party over there does? I'm not in that party either. I'd love to get rid of them out of power, but we have the power in our own hands in Wales and we have that potential, and that is what we are seeking always. Carry on.  

Listen, we've had devolution for 22 years. We've also had a Labour Government propped up by Plaid Cymru and the odd Lib Dem, and what have we achieved? It's time for the people of Wales to allow the Conservatives to be here and have the levers of power and the finance to go with it. [Interruption.]

You wouldn't believe that we were four and a half years away from an election, would you, at this point? Rhun ap Iorwerth. 

Isn't it again revealing that when we're talking about something so fundamentally important to the future of Wales, you cannot help but take up the temptation of politicising this in that way? When we are looking at releasing our potential, you need to be a little bit more serious in your politics. 

The motion, as well as looking at the control that we could bring through the devolution of the Crown Estate, looks at other elements of control. We have mentioned the loss of hundreds of acres of land for forestry, planted by investors from outside of Wales to be used as carbon credits. It strips us of carbon credits that we need as a nation, and strips us too of the integrity of our communities—opportunities for our young people in farming, undermining of language. We're seeing the same thing with solar developments on Anglesey now. Solar can be a really important part of our renewable energy production, but let's be innovative in the way that we do it. What we have on Anglesey is proposal after proposal for thousands of acres of agricultural land earmarked for solar development by companies from outside Wales. 'Why here?' we ask. 'Oh, your land is cheaper than brownfield sites, thank you very much'. They'll wrest over farmed land, we're told, in Môn Mam Cymru, the mother of Wales, which has fed the nation for countless centuries. 'What about construction traffic as it's being built?', asked one constituent in another public meeting. 'Oh, don't worry, there'll be less farm traffic after it's built', came the unbelievable response. And the financial community benefit proposal from that particular solar farm was £50,000 over a 30-year life span of a solar farm. It's insulting and typifies the exploitation that we face. 

Let me deal with the Minister's comments to close, and whether she'd add 'exploitation' to the list of words that she's not comfortable with. She felt that we were too ready to bear a grievance, to be victims. Listen, this is about saying, 'Let's move on from the past'. Let's look at a way of dealing with our own resources in a way that enables us to plan our future as a nation around it—not as victims, not with a grievance, but with real positivity. And let's build a partnership within this Senedd that can help deliver that better future.

We have, in the past, for whatever reason, not felt confident enough to challenge the exploitation—and I do use that again. Let's say that those days have now passed, and what we need to do now is look at our resources in the round, and how to make sure that they are used properly—yes, internationally, in partnership with partners from around the world, but for the benefit of our communities and our population.

Llywydd, we as Plaid Cymru Members are very pleased to have the opportunity to put forward a debate like this one in our nation's Parliament, our Senedd. We've had an opportunity today to outline some of the fundamental issues that we believe could enable us to strengthen Wales's future foundations. But, this Senedd needs to take action, ultimately, to realise that we, as the representatives of the people of Wales and its communities, have the responsibility to demand the right to safeguard our priceless resources. There are no political thresholds or boundaries that should prevent us from trying to achieve that aim. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, I defer voting until voting time. That brings us to voting time, but we will need to take a short break to make technical preparations for the vote. So, a short break. 

Plenary was suspended at 17:22.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:26, with the Llywydd in the Chair.