3. What is the Welsh Government policy regarding community empowerment? OQ57740

Llywydd, experience of the coronavirus pandemic has powerfully illustrated the continued vitality of local action in Wales. The Welsh Government continues to support such actions through the promotion of best practice and the provision of significant annual funding.

As I've repeatedly stated here since the UK Localism Act 2011, the Welsh Government has proven strangely averse to implementing its community rights agenda. And although the well-being objectives in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 include people contributing to their community, being informed, included and listened to, too often this hasn't happened because it's not been monitored, because people in power don't want to share it or to understand that this would create more efficient and effective services. January's Wales Co-operative Centre discussion paper, 'Communities Creating Homes', states Wales is trailing other nations in the UK when it comes to community ownership rights, adding that the policies in Wales do not offer quite the same empowerment as enjoyed by communities in England or, particularly, Scotland, as they either focus solely on assets and facilities owned by public bodies or necessitate the direct involvement of a public body to implement the power. And the Institute of Welsh Affairs's recent 'Our Land: Communities and Land Use' report found that Welsh communities are the least empowered in Britain, and community groups in Wales told them about an arbitrary, demoralising scenario with little real process for communities to take ownership of public or private assets. How do you therefore respond to calls in both these new reports for the Welsh Government to strengthen community empowerment and ownership rights? 

Llywydd, I simply don't agree with some of the points that are made in some of those reports. There are other parts that are very useful and constructive, and that we will wish to discuss further and to take forward. But the truth of the matter is that in every single part of Wales, there are community groups because of the actions of this Government who today are able to take on the running and management of facilities that otherwise would not have been available to them, who are able to be involved in the provision of those services, and where a partnership approach—. See, this is where he and I differ. His view of community empowerment is simply to hand things over to somebody else. Our view of it is that a partnership arrangement with the help of a public body can continue to be available to groups who, in taking on the running or the management of community assets, need to have—this is one of the conclusions of the report that we instigated into community asset transfer—the continued interest and engagement of a public authority able to help them with what are sometimes onerous things that are taken on.

And where this is done well, as, for example, in Labour-controlled Flintshire County Council in the Member's own area, you have a council that publishes a register of all potential asset transfers, gives information about the current level of expenditure, the usage and the occupancy rates, has an app that provides a potential community group with an up-to-date condition survey—all of this commended by those groups with which it works, and that has resulted in up to 30 transfer of assets from the council to groups that are not then abandoned to get on with it, but continue to be helped and supported. That is the sort of community empowerment that I think we talk about and mean here in Wales.

First Minister, I've heard what you've been saying to Mark Isherwood. I wonder if I could press you more on this sense of not just empowerment, but communities' sense of empowerment, because the IWA report that Mark Isherwood has referred to does make for sobering reading in terms of how unempowered, then, communities feel. The evidence that they have gathered has found that there are nearly universally negative views about the situation in Wales. And, again, I take on board the points that you've been saying, First Minister, but in terms of finding that link with communities, in terms of having this sense of empowerment and what is possible, I'd be really interested to hear your views.

We've heard as well that Scottish communities since 2001 have had funding available to take control of assets; legislation has been available there since 2003. In England the Localism Act does empower community groups. And the statutory rights and the funds aren't available in the same way in Wales. Again, whether a community is empowered or not is only really, truly, in a meaningful sense important if they feel that empowerment. So, could I ask, how do you think that that link could be made more so that communities feel the sense of empowerment in the same way in Wales, please?

Well, Llywydd, it's a really interesting question and deserves a longer answer than what I can offer this afternoon, because if we were to explore it in the way that Delyth Jewell began there, we'd start by recognising that when we use the word 'community' we are talking about places like any other place, where there are differences of view, where there is no single idea about the best way to take things forward, and where there is very different access, not simply to financial resources, but human capital as well. There are communities who are fortunate to have a call on people with experience, qualifications, knowledge that they can bring to the table and make things happen.

I think, in my own constituency, Llywydd, just recently, of a formidable group of women—I should say, on International Women's Day—who came to see me from the Llandaff part of my constituency, who wanted to buy a disused toilet block that was in the ownership of the local authority and turn it into a centre for services for older people in the community. And they've done it. They've done it in just a short number of years. They persuaded the council to donate the building to them for 1p. The community facilities programme—[Interruption.] Thank you. That was the cost of the building. [Laughter.] The community facilities programme of the Welsh Government provided £225,000 to them. But what they were able to do, because of their own histories and their own connections, was that they were able to mobilise a group of people with accountancy experience, with architecture experience, with running of buildings experience, and it was put to work, and I don't think they felt for a moment that they weren't empowered or that they didn't have the capacity.

But you don't have to go far from Llandaff to find a community where people are equally motivated, equally ambitious, but just can't call on the same resources that were available there, and that's where I think our efforts have to be focused, in making sure that we grow that human capacity in those areas, so that people do feel that the opportunities are there. The community facilities programme, Llywydd—since 2015 over £40 million to 280 projects in every part of Wales. Every single local authority has examples. Every Member here will have examples that they have supported of community efforts to take on buildings, church halls, sports facilities, green spaces—all the things that that programme represents—but we know that we get more applications from places that are already well resourced than we do from places who need those facilities the most, and that, it seems to me, is the real challenge that we have to try to work on further.

First Minister, last week I chaired the launch of a very interesting report from the Wales Co-operative Centre into enhancing community ownership of land and increasing community housing opportunities. I know this was raised in Plenary with the climate change Minister and I welcome her comments, but an additional key recommendation from the report was to develop a standardised approach to community asset transfers for public bodies. While appreciating the good examples you have given in answer to my colleagues on this question already, I'd like to ask what work Welsh Government is doing around this, so that all communities can be empowered to take charge of those assets that may be so important to them locally.

I thank Vikki Howells for that, Llywydd. I referred earlier to Welsh Government-commissioned research that we published that is about community asset transfer in Wales, and the purpose of the research was to look at the conditions that enable that to happen effectively and then to the barriers that prevent it from taking place.

As a result of the research, we published detailed guidance to support community groups looking to take on publicly owned assets, and it's a key finding—I was drawing on that when I made an earlier answer, Llywydd—it's a key finding of that research that, while most local authorities provide a good level of support during the transfer period, it's a minority of local authorities that provide support to that group post transfer. And for community asset transfers that succeed, the need to continue to be able to draw on a level of post-transfer support is one of the things that that report highlighted.

We're taking it forward through Ystadau Cymru, the group that we have in the Welsh Government that focuses on land and assets, and want to work with local authorities, particularly those who have seen the greatest success, to make sure that that best practice and the lessons that we've learned from the research can go on supporting those communities who wish to take charge of assets, and then are able successfully to go on discharging the responsibilities that they have taken on.