The next item is item 5, statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services on the children (Wales) Act.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm delighted to be here today on a historic day for children and their rights.

I'm absolutely delighted that the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Act 2020 came into force yesterday. The Government has a long-standing commitment to children’s rights, based on the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Our strong focus on children’s rights, and respecting children and young people as citizens in their own right, will help ensure their needs are met and their ambitions realised, making Wales a truly wonderful place to grow up in.

Consistent with our approach, and with the UNCRC article 19, children now have legal protection from all forms of violence. The law sends the message that no physical punishment is acceptable in Wales, making it clear and easy for everyone to understand: children should never be physically punished, under any circumstances. Terms like 'light smack' or 'loving smack' make light of physical punishment in a way that would be totally unacceptable if applied to adults. After decades of campaigning, I'm glad children in Wales now have the same legal protection from assault as adults. Children, who are more physically and emotionally vulnerable than adults, deserve nothing less. Simply put, big people shouldn’t hit little people.

The clarity in the law will provide a clearer and more consistent basis for practitioners to support parents to adopt positive forms of discipline. From the outset, we said we would put every effort into effective implementation of the Act and ensuring public, professionals and parents would be prepared for when the law changed. We've worked with many partners across key sectors, including health, education, local authorities, social services, police, the Crown Prosecution Service, youth justice, the third sector and community leaders, and I'm grateful for their determination to work collaboratively implementing the Act. And I would particularly like to thank the Children's Commissioner for Wales, Sally Holland, for her absolute commitment to this issue and for working steadfastly to promote and safeguard children's rights.

The past two years since the Act was passed have been exceptionally challenging. Despite the pandemic, a phenomenal response from stakeholders has enabled us to achieve a huge amount since the first meeting of our strategic implementation group in May 2019. The Children, Young People and Education Committee were clear during scrutiny that, to ensure the Act benefits children and their families, we should make sure everyone is aware the law has changed and support parents to adopt positive parenting styles. An extensive multimedia communications and engagement campaign is ensuring maximum awareness of the law changes. Our campaign has included television and radio adverts, out-of-home print and digital advertising, and a national leafleting campaign. The campaign will continue post commencement to maintain levels of public awareness. Our dedicated website includes information for parents, other members of the public and professionals.

Children in Wales are working with us on an engagement plan, and resources to support awareness raising with children and information will be embedded within schools and existing initiatives, so it can be framed and discussed within a children's rights context, in an appropriate setting. As part of our engagement work, we've connected with groups and communities where there may be barriers to communication, and this has included producing resources in a range of languages and formats to suit a variety of needs. Alongside the campaign, we're providing a great deal of information, advice and support for parents, including through health visitors, our family support programmes and our 'Parenting. Give it Time' campaign.

Our parenting expert action group thoroughly reviewed the availability of parenting provision. Where gaps were identified, local authorities are working together and/or commissioning specialist support. Their comprehensive review of the 'Parenting. Give it Time' campaign has ensured it complements the Act, and parenting advice is available for parents with children from birth to 18 years.

We’ve worked with partners to consider the impact on professional processes. A practice guide, complementing existing safeguarding procedures, has been published, providing additional information for practitioners about safeguarding responses in relation to the Act. Ultimately, we want messages about the law to be embedded into existing services. We have therefore updated the Healthy Child Wales programme guidance so health visitors have information needed when talking with parents. And the law makes it clear: physical punishment of children is illegal. As acknowledged during scrutiny, a small number of individuals may be charged or prosecuted in circumstances where, prior to commencement, they might not have.

The Children, Young People and Education Committee's Stage 1 report recommended a scheme should divert cases away from the criminal justice system, where appropriate, with a focus on supporting parents rather than penalising them. So, working closely with police and local authorities, we've set up tailored parenting support, which can be offered as a condition of an out-of-court disposal and as a rehabilitative alternative to prosecution. Where police decide an out-of-court disposal is appropriate, parenting support can be offered to avoid re-offending. Welsh local authorities will receive up to £2.4 million over the next three years to fund this, in addition to almost £500,000 already received.

The support will encourage and help parents to adopt positive parenting techniques while making it absolutely clear that the physical punishment of children is unacceptable in all circumstances, and, from this point on, illegal. The Act places a duty on Welsh Government to publish a post-implementation report three and five years after commencement, or as soon as practicable after that. We've worked with police, social services, the Crown Prosecution Service and others to agree arrangements to monitor the impact of the Act on them, and we will continue to use representative surveys to track levels of public awareness and changes in attitudes.

So, I want to end by thanking those who've worked so hard to prepare for the commencement. This legislation represents a genuinely historic step in helping protect children's rights and their welfare. It sends a clear message about how, in Wales, we think about our children and young people, that we respect, we want the best for them and will do everything we can to make the experience of childhood as good as possible. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I think it is no secret and many know well here that I fully disagree with the children (Wales) Act, and I actually condemn any attempt to prioritise the criminalisation of good, loving and caring parents. With this Act, this Welsh Labour Government is now reaching further into the private lives of families, creating a nanny state, where Welsh Government think that they know best when it comes to the protection and safeguarding of our children.

The explanatory memorandum stated that the preferred option to

'Legislate to remove the defence of reasonable punishment in Wales' would cost a total to our taxpayers of between £6 million and £8 million. Isn't it a shame, when children can't access dental services, when they can't access mental health services, that it's felt so important to actually bring this legislation in? So far, the Welsh Government has already spent just under £1.7 million. However, it seems that costs are spiralling. The Bill's supporting documentation included funding for an out-of-court parenting support scheme, to be used where the police decided it is more appropriate to do so, and I can tell you locally we have children that are falling through the safeguarding net because our departments don't have the resources now, Deputy Minister, so, this is just going to compound pressures.

Between £162,000 and £473,000 per year was initially allocated for the scheme, but the allocation in the 2022-23 draft budget is now nearly double that. In an effort to justify this doubling of costs, you stated to the Children, Young People, and Education Committee, and I quote:

'When we indicated a sum of money for this scheme, that was done without having done the intensive work that's been done since.'

Today, we learn that the budget has now jumped from £473,000 per year to £2.4 million—

Llyr Gruffydd rose—

Do you want an intervention?

No, there are no interventions to a statement.

Oh, it's a statement. Sorry.

So, I'll be expecting the Member to come to a question soon.

—over the next three years. So, Deputy Minister, I do respect what you are trying to attempt in this, but I'm telling you here and now this will backfire, and it's just a shame that our children are being used in this way.

So, answer these questions if you wouldn't mind: will the Deputy Minister explain to this Senedd why she introduced a Bill, drove it to Royal Assent and, to quote you,

'without having done the intensive work' that's had to be done since?

In fact, this is not the first time that you've been caught out with spiralling costs. Since the explanatory memorandum, the Bill has increased from a range of between £2.3 million and £3.7 million to £6.2 million and £7.9 million respectively. The revised regulatory impact assessment provides a total cost of awareness-raising activities of £2.8 million, previously described as being in a range of £1.3 million. And information on the out-of-court disposal schemes, not originally costed, was estimated at between £810,000 and £2.5 million. This legislation should be a lesson to all that costings need to be properly calculated and taken into account before agreeing to any new legislation. Question 2: will you clarify if the Act is now going to cost more than the highest estimate of £8 million and why you chose to waste such resources on legislation that gives control over enforcement to two reserved institutions, the Crown Prosecution Service and the police?

Thirteen years after the introduction of the smacking ban in New Zealand, a survey found that almost 40 per cent of mothers would still smack their child and 70 per cent would not report a parent if they witnessed them smacking their child on the bottom or the hand. Question 3: bearing in mind your commitment to use representative surveys to track levels of public awareness and changes in attitude, will you agree for the surveys to be answered anonymously, so to establish if parents continue to use reasonable chastisement and would not report a parent?

Deputy Minister, you know how strongly I and some of the Members on these benches feel. We do not believe that this legislation was necessary or required. I would like to thank all those parents who bring up their children in this era of a Welsh Labour Government with massive levels of child poverty, and they do so in a caring, loving and considered household. Diolch.

Well, I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that contribution. I really wonder who she thinks that she is speaking for when you're continuing your opposition to this Act, and I'd like to remind her that when this law went through this Chamber we had very strong support from two members of her party and one particular Member was part of the core group that campaigned tirelessly for this legislation to be brought in, so she certainly doesn't speak for her party. I really think that you're on the wrong side of history, Janet. It cannot be right for a big person to be able to hit a little person, and that—[Interruption.]

I would like to hear the Deputy Minister give the answer to the questions you have asked.

I think this is a fantastic move by the Welsh Government. It has committed itself to children, and we're also in tune with the public. There was a survey—[Interruption.]

Excuse me, Deputy Minister. At this point in time, this is a statement. You asked questions to the Minister, the Minister is now required to respond to those questions. It is not a debate, and please remember that. There's no point of order about giving additional information; these are the questions you should have asked to the Minister at the time. Deputy Minister.

Yes. There was a YouGov survey yesterday that showed that 68 per cent of the public in England thought that this legislation should be introduced in England, and I think that you'll find that this is the way the mood is going. There was a time when physical punishment was accepted, but now, in all our surveys it shows that younger parents, younger families don't even consider physically punishing their children. In fact, most of them think it's illegal already, before we passed this Act. So, I really think that you, as I said, are on the wrong side of history.

But then, to go on to some of the other specific questions you asked: from 2016 to March 2022, the cost was £2.5 million and that was over six years, which I think is very reasonable, and the proposed expenditure for the next three years is £3.44 million, and that will cover the awareness raising and engagement and the out-of-court parenting support. I think what you fail to realise, Janet, is that this is the result of a huge amount of collaborative working, that we set up an implementation group when this law was passed and we worked in that implementation group so closely with the police and with the Crown Prosecution Service, so that we produced something that is a joint product, because that's how we want to do things in this Government; we want to work with our partners. So, we worked together to have the out-of-court disposal scheme, which I think is absolutely crucial because we want to give all the help we possibly can to parents, and we do. We think physical punishment is wrong, but along with making it illegal, we are there giving additional support to parents, and I said in my introduction how much money we're giving to the local authorities in order to help support parents, and that is additional money. So, I think that, as I said, every penny is worth it. And, you started off by really saying, 'Why on earth did we introduce this Bill?' We introduced this Bill to make sure that children have as good lives as they possibly can.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. If you follow the Conservatives' logic, then we don't need any laws at all. I disagree with that, and I think if we have laws to protect adults, then we should have laws to protect children, and I'm glad to be able to note that physically punishing children is now illegal in Wales after the new law came into force yesterday. And after all, you were right, Deputy Minister, to emphasise the rights of the child. This makes it clear that children—[Interruption.]

I think you don't get it, if I'm honest. I know that you're heckling here, but this isn't about not getting it; it is about the rights of the child. And, actually, if you speak to a child or if you've spoken to children, like I have done during school visits—[Interruption.] And I know you have children, but if you speak to those children, as I have done recently, they actually know that this is coming into effect. They welcome it. I think any increase in awareness that a child has rights has to be welcomed. And I think all the information campaigns are definitely getting through to children that they know that they finally have rights, and that's not true everywhere in the world. We can't lose sight of the fact that this is historic and right in Wales, and that this is an important moment. And really, it is common sense that children should be afforded the same protection from assault as adults. They are the most vulnerable members of our society and deserve equal rights in this space.

As the Deputy Minister has said, the law is now clear. It's making it easier for children, young people, parents, professionals and the public to understand, and it will go a long way in adding to the work already being done to make sure all children in Wales have the best start in life and to live the lives that they want to live.

And just to get this out of the way, if I may challenge the Conservatives' claim that the Act will lead to a Stasi culture—things we have seen in the press. This is not only ridiculous and historically ignorant, but it's also insulting to the victims of the Stasi regime and those living in repressive regimes all over the world today. To compare a protective measure designed to uphold the rights of our most vulnerable citizens with the oppressive tactics of a cold war-era police state is simply incomprehensible, and this doesn't really deserve further discussion.

So, with regard to the Act, both the police and the chief crown prosecutor for Wales have stated that the numbers of people charged or prosecuted would be very low, something that we know is very challenging, with violence against women and so on. So, in the same way, could the Deputy Minister please just reiterate what the central purpose of this legislation is, and how it will be enforced? And those working on the front line with responsibility for protecting children, including the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, social services and so on have stated that this Act will improve their ability to protect children living in Wales because it will make the law clearer.

We've heard, obviously, some opposition to the Act from Members today, but those are in a minority, luckily. And I think when you look at people trying to justify traditional methods of parenting, well those are outdated by now, and we need to send that clear signal to our children and young people and to parents everywhere.

Claire Campbell-Adams of the Mum's Shoulders blog said it was brilliant that the ban closes a loophole, but she did note her concern that it could make it more difficult for parents who need support to open up, so I welcome the commitment with that funding and so on. But I wonder if you could, perhaps, elaborate further in terms of how we can encourage people who need help to access that help, so that it's not something hidden then, that we are making sure that they access the services being made available.

I would just like to close by saying how we fully support this in Plaid Cymru. It is a historic moment, it is welcome, and it is about time that the rights of the child were acknowledged in this way.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Diolch, and thank you very much for that heartfelt support for this Act, and also for recognising that this is a historic moment.

In terms of the points that you made, I think it's important to stress that everyone's ability to protect children will be improved by this Act. This Act was widely welcomed by all the health professionals—the health visitors, the doctors—and everybody who works with children, including the social workers who work in a professional capacity with children, addressing the very difficult issues that we have to deal with. All of them said they wanted this Act to be passed. So, just addressing the Conservatives' opposition to this, they are speaking against what the professionals also think. They were almost completely united, the professionals were, that this is what they wanted.

And it does make it much easier, because parenting is very difficult, so I think we all have to recognise—. We all recognise how difficult parenting is, and we want to make it as easy as we possibly can for parents. I know how much I welcomed support, and I think that the support that we're offering here is, as I say, in addition. It's additional money, it's generous money—£810,000 per year to the local authorities for three years—to specifically concentrate on bringing a tailored response to an out-of-court disposal. So, it will be geared up to the particular individuals.

It needs to be very well thought out, because I can't say what a huge amount of preparation has gone into this Act. Since it was passed we've had two really intensive years, looking at all the issues that Heledd so rightly raises. I saw that clip on the television, with the worry about whether parents would be worried and wouldn't want to open up, and that's why I think it behoves us and the services to make it quite clear to them that we are putting in extra help for this. We want people to share what they feel, and I think we've just got to go on recognising that we do need to give support, because parenting is difficult. This isn't anything to do with the nanny state; the support we're giving is the support that we should give as a Government to our citizens.

So, I agree with Heledd: it's an absolutely great day. I'm thrilled that Wales is doing it, and I'm so glad for your support. Diolch.

I do welcome the abolition of reasonable punishment Wales Act. It is a hugely significant day, and if we did follow the argument that we heard earlier from Janet Finch-Saunders—that the state is intervening in people's lives—well, I'm glad that they are, because if we followed that logic then the state wouldn't intervene in ending domestic abuse, and the state wouldn't have intervened in removing the right of teachers who brutalised children with the cane and the ruler and anything else that was in their hand. So, there are times when it is right for the state to intervene, and it's right that the state is intervening here. Children have a right to be treated equally. That is clear from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and we would have been an outrider if we hadn't changed that legislation.

You said, Minister, that it is not right that big people hit small people. I absolutely agree with you. The public agree with us, and my question to you is: the roll-out of positive parenting across Wales, which in itself is a fantastic wording, 'positive parenting', how and when will that be rolled out? I know it has started. And how will people be able to access that if they need that help?

Thank you very much, Joyce, for your support for this legislation. I absolutely agree with your introduction, where you say it is right for the state to intervene, and the importance of the state protecting its citizens, I think, is absolutely crucial, and who could be more important to protect than the children?

I think you're also right in saying that, if we weren't doing this, we would be an outrider, because it isn't as if this is anything new. I think 63 states have already done this, and over 20 states are thinking of doing it, and this is something we have been discussing here in this Chamber for many years. I think near the very beginning of the Senedd there was a vote taken here by Members on this very issue, and there was agreement then, so there has been a majority in favour of abolishing this defence of reasonable punishment right since this Senedd started, so it's fantastic that we've reached the stage now that we're actually getting rid of it.

So, on the roll-out, the expert group that has been working on the issues, they've checked with each local authority how much support, how much resource they've got to help with the positive parenting, because we want that to be available all over Wales. Any gaps have been identified and, in order to address those gaps, the local authorities are working together to ensure that they have got people and resources there who will be able to work not only with those who have the out-of-court disposal, but also those who want help with parenting in a general sense. That is why we have put this extra money into it. I think this is a crucial part of the proposals we're putting forward today, that parenting support, which of course already exists, for example, in Flying Start, because Flying Start is one of the key areas where we do provide parenting support. I'm very pleased that, with the support of Plaid Cymru, we're working together to expand Flying Start. Parenting support as part of Flying Start will be expanded as part of the co-operation agreement. So, we are planning this roll-out, which, as Joyce Watson says, has already started. Thank you. 

I thank the Deputy Minister.