2. Will the Minister provide an update on decarbonising housing? OQ57878

Thank you. We have introduced new build standards for social homes, which banish the use of fossil fuels, with ambitions for private developers to adopt these requirements by 2025. We also continue to invest in the optimised retrofit programme, exploring the most effective and efficient ways of decarbonising existing social housing stock. 

I thank the Minister for that answer. I personally would like to commend Swansea Council and local registered social landlords on the work that the have done in decarbonising their new housing. I represent a constituency that has a large number of owner-occupied and privately rented houses, which were built in the nineteenth century. What progress has been made to reduce heat loss from private and privately rented housing? And what is the plan to decarbonise these houses? I recognise it's going to be long and I recognise it's going to be difficult. 

Well, I'd like to echo what Mike Hedges said about Swansea Council. I think it's an excellent example of a partnership between a Labour-run local authority and a Welsh Labour Government. They themselves have invested some £60 million this financial year in warmer, more energy efficient homes, creating some 25 new low-carbon homes, as well as a programme of energy efficiency for existing homes, totalling around £46 million. I think that is a tremendous effort on their part to deal with the cost of living crisis, by providing practical help to deal with fuel poverty and addressing the net zero challenge. 

On the issue of private houses, we are very fortunate that we have Rent Smart Wales, which is something other parts of the UK don't have, which allows us to map the properties in the private sector to see which ones are not currently meeting minimum energy efficiency standards. And then, with that information, we can look at what mix of grant and loan is needed to incentivse those homes to meet the standard and to exceed it. We're taking an approach, as Mike Hedges knows, of trialling our optimised retrofit programme, which is a £220 million investment by us, and taking what we describe as a 'fabric first' approach, recognising that there have been difficulties with retrofit programmes across the UK over the last few years and all houses are different. In particular, Wales has an old housing stock, with very varied housing stock, and what might be a solution for a terraced house in the Valleys might be different for a suburban bungalow. So, we need to trial, which we are, different fabrics to understand what would be the most efficient, and when we understand those practicalities, we can then set out a pathway towards decarbonisation. 

Good afternoon, Deputy Minister. Minister, owner-occupied homes make up more than 70 per cent of the 1.4 million homes that we have in Wales. On average, our properties are older than elsewhere in the UK, and many will have a challenge in achieving decarbonisation to the target you have set. If the problem is one of energy supply, how does the Welsh Government expect families to move away from gas towards renewable sources, and how will it pay for it? 

Well, I would like to welcome Altaf Hussain to the Labour benches—[Laughter.] There is much joy in heaven for every sinner that repents. 

Can I just explain that there are too many Tories to fit into the Tory bench and, therefore, there is a need for a seat in the Labour cohort? 

I couldn't agree more, Llywydd. There are, indeed, too many Tories and we shall make sure there are fewer at the next election—[Laughter.] But, seriously, to answer the point of the Member's question, which I thank him for, how we tackle the private sector homes is clearly a challenge for us all. I did note in the Chancellor's budget he did announce a reduction in VAT for some solar renewable technology, which we welcome, but, I'm afraid, it is insufficient for the challenge that faces us. This is largely not something that can be done by the Welsh Government; this is something that we need to do across the UK, and decarbonising homes is going to be a key part of meeting our net-zero targets, both for heat and for electricity. The technology is available, it is proven and it is cost-effective.

I did think it was a massive mistake that the UK Government got rid of the feed-in tariff a few years ago. It was brought in 2010 when there was a Liberal Democrat-Conservative coalition, and it had significant success in incentivising private homeowners to invest in their own property, as well as to feed into the grid with renewables. And I think it was a major error to withdraw that in 2019. So, there does need now to be, I think, a significant programme across the UK of incentivising homeowners to invest in renewable energy. That is the way to get energy security. That is the way to make sure we are not reliant on Russian oil and gas, and that is the way to decarbonise and deal with fuel poverty. But, so far, we've heard little from the UK Government about this, and I'd be very keen to work with them to put that right.