It's been a bumpy ride getting to this point, and I think the length of time given to this debate and the number of people speaking in it perhaps raises what is really, as Siân Gwenllian said, a sensible approach above the level of salience with which people in the general public hold it. I think people generally don't feel that strongly about the arrangements of a Parliament. The House of Commons changes its composition regularly, the House of Lords has 771 Members, which is probably about 571 too many, and this debate today is probably longer than required. Perhaps I should just sit down now, but I do want to make my point. [Laughter.] I thought that would go down well in the Chamber.

I do want to make my point, though. I thought the strongest speech I've heard so far has been from Jane Dodds, and she provided a very strong perspective as a member of the committee. It was very odd that the Government and Plaid Cymru presented their view at the point at which they did. I think it would have been better, actually, for the Government and Plaid Cymru to have set out their view a lot earlier, at the very beginning. I think part of the problem is it took Plaid Cymru far too long to come to the co-operation agreement. Seven months after the election, the co-operation agreement was published. That was far, far too long. I think if they were serious about Senedd reform primarily, they would have had that co-operation agreement under way within at least a month of the election. So, I think they have some responsibility for undermining the committee today. I do have some sympathy—[Interruption.] They don't want to hear it, but it's the truth. I have some sympathy for Darren Millar's position, but I wouldn't vote for the amendment because he resigned from the committee. If he'd stayed on the committee, he could have stayed there to make the point, as Jane Dodds did. 

With regard to referendums, I've long argued in favour of the reform of this Chamber, I've long argued in favour of more Members, I did before the Senedd election, and I've also argued against referendums. I think referendums represent a failure of democracy. The alternative vote referendum in 2011 had a 42 per cent turnout. People weren't engaged with that. The reason they voted against, and the reason I voted against AV, was nothing to do with AV, it was because of Nick Clegg. Sorry, Jane, but it was against Nick Clegg at the time, the same as my colleague from Blaenau Gwent. [Interruption.] I will take an intervention. It seems I've only used a minute so far.