Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:43 pm on 21 June 2022.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:43, 21 June 2022

(Translated)

Questions now from party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, the country today is gridlocked because of the rail strikes, the biggest strikes since the 1980s. Do you support the strikes, First Minister? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Llywydd, there are no strikes in Wales. There is no dispute between Transport for Wales and the trade union. Where I am responsible for these things, workers are not on strike, because of the way in which the Welsh Government acts on a social partnership basis to bring people round the table together to make sure that conversations take place and solutions are reached. How very different from the entirely absent UK Government, who abandon their responsibilities and mean that thousands of people are unable to travel due to the dereliction of duty that is so apparent in their approach to industrial relations. 

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:44, 21 June 2022

Nothing like winding up the payroll vote to the unions is there when your own are banging their desks? I didn't hear them banging their desks when they were supposed to be standing up for their constituents who were stuck on trains that couldn't provide a service from Transport for Wales. And when you go to Cardiff Central station today, or the rail network in north Wales or mid Wales, there are no trains running, First Minister. I do note that you didn't say that you supported the strikes, which is to be welcomed, First Minister, but surely, in an era when we need the public transport system to come back to life after COVID, we need to move away from the 1950s working practices and move into the 2020s—practices that see people not sharing vans to get to the same site to work, practices that rule on not using drones for health and safety, or the ability to use apps on phones to send messages to workers who are in vulnerable locations. Surely you'll agree with me on that, First Minister—that working practices do need updating in our railways, whether that's in Wales, England, Scotland or Northern Ireland, so that we have a safe and reliable rail network.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:45, 21 June 2022

Llywydd, let me explain to the leader of the opposition why trains aren't running in Wales: it's because his Government has created a dispute with Network Rail, and Network Rail have removed some of the staff, who could have been available to make trains run in Wales, in order to keep trains running in England. I wonder if he supports that measure, which was a decision of his Government, to deny people in Wales the opportunity to travel—where there is no dispute—by removing those workers to look after what clearly is for them a higher priority than Welsh citizens will ever be.

The trade unions—Llywydd, of course the trade unions want to negotiate and want to negotiate on safe working practices for the future, but the safe working practices. When you look at what Network Rail is currently proposing, I wouldn't want to be travelling on a train with a driver that has just worked for 16 hours in a row. I wouldn't want to be on a train where I couldn't be confident that the safety arrangements and signalling boxes are what they need to be.

Llywydd, any dispute in the end is only ever settled by negotiation. What I want to see is the UK Government using the power that it has, the convening power that it has, the muscle of the funding arrangements that it has, to get people around the table and to make sure that those talks resume and head towards an agreed conclusion. It is the absence of the UK Government and their refusal to exercise those responsibilities that is responsible for the issues that people face while trying to travel today.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:46, 21 June 2022

First Minister, you clearly haven't been keeping up to date with what the general secretary of the RMT has said, where he's said on record that he would not negotiate with a Conservative Government, which does seem odd considering they've got a mandate to govern—[Interruption.] I appreciate the payroll vote are getting quite agitated, and I'm sure that the constituency Labour parties will get the donations they deserve—[Interruption.]

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:47, 21 June 2022

Okay, okay, okay. We're clearly—. There are a lot of us back in the Chamber—only two people on Zoom today—and I'm hearing the effect of it around me. [Laughter.] But, I do also need to hear the leader of the opposition, so if we can carry on with the question.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

There are nurses, there are students looking to do their exams, there are businesses who cannot get employees into their place of work, who are suffering because of this strike action. So, we might disagree on various points, First Minister, but do you agree with me on this salient point: that when strike action is called—and I respect the right to call strike action, because that's a fundamental part of democracy—that there should be minimum levels of service guaranteed on key transport infrastructure? Do you believe that is a critical part of what a modern transport system requires in the twenty-first century, rather than 1950s working practices, which you seem so able to defend?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:48, 21 June 2022

Llywydd, this strike has been called against the extraordinary levels of consent that are required by Tory party legislation. For unions to be able to mount a strike today, they had to move through a series of hurdles that his Government has placed in their path. Now he wants to place further hurdles in the path of people. That's not part of the arrangements that his Government has put on the statute book. Let him speak to his Government. The rules that the trade unions are operating under are your rules. Now you want to change the rulebook, of course.

But, I do say this to the leader of the opposition: I have tried in my answers this afternoon to emphasise the fact that consensus is the only way in which disputes are ever resolved. He would be better adding his voice on that side of the argument, rather than echoing the deliberately provocative language that this Government in Westminster uses. It wants a fight with the unions, it provokes a fight with the unions, and that is in nobody's interest at all.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:49, 21 June 2022

(Translated)

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. I have to say, in the week where thousands of flights have been cancelled and the railway network has ground to a halt and petrol prices have gone up yet again, the Tories deciding to go on transport in First Minister's questions and in their opposition motion this week is a very courageous choice. They say the transport network in Wales is not fit for purpose. What they omit to say is that it's failing because of their Westminster Government, and the rail strike is a perfect example of that: services are able to run from Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil to Radyr, where they stop, because that's the bit of the railway infrastructure that we control ourselves here in Wales, where there is no dispute, because we in Wales believe that treating workers with decency is part and parcel of providing a decent public service. Isn't that yet another argument—? And, what you've shared just now, First Minister, about Network Rail prioritising England over Wales yet again, isn't that an argument yet again for devolving powers fully over rail to Wales?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:50, 21 June 2022

Well, Llywydd, the leader of Plaid Cymru is absolutely right that the reasons that we do not have—[Interruption.] I understand that denial is the first refuge of the Welsh Conservative Party, and they're busy at it this afternoon. The reason why there are no trains south of Radyr is because of decisions being made by non-devolved bodies. The reasons why there are no trains at all in north Wales is for the same reason. It is time that the UK Government and Network Rail treated Wales with the respect that we deserve, and recognised that we don't have a dispute going on here in Wales, and yet, because of their actions, trains that could be running today are not running.

The leader of Plaid Cymru reminded us of Grant Shapps. There's a name—I see some Members here recognise it. But it is a remarkable triple whammy, isn't it, to have brought the railways to a standstill, to have brought the airports to a standstill, and, finally, after about eight weeks, I think, to have woken up to the fact that the 5p that was taken off the price of petrol hadn't been passed on to people in that part of the transport sector as well. It is a remarkable record of failure, and I'm afraid that it's people not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom who are paying the cost of that failure today.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:52, 21 June 2022

In relation to the devolution of railways, I think it is important that we have a clear position on that here in Wales, but also from the UK Labour Party as well, that have been at best ambiguous, and, in fact, supported an integrated UK railway at the last election.

Now, in Westminster's rail crisis, there seems to be a competition between politicians to see who can be the most invisible. Is it Grant Shapps refusing to sit down with the rail unions, or is it Keir Starmer banning his shadow Cabinet from the picket lines and berating them for speaking out in favour? I was at an RMT picket line this morning—proud to be there expressing my solidarity with workers fighting for jobs and decent pay and conditions. At a time when trade unions and workers are being demonised, being turned into scapegoats, being vilified to distract attention from Boris Johnson's many failures, isn't it even more important that we show them our support? So, can you confirm that Mr Starmer's prohibition does not apply to your Cabinet members, and will you yourself, First Minister, visit a picket line as a symbol of your solidarity and support?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:53, 21 June 2022

Well, Llywydd, no inhibition exists on members of my group demonstrating their support for the trade union movement. Keir Starmer is in a very different position. He knows perfectly well that if he were to sanction that, the story would never, ever be, would it, about support for the trade union movement; it would be the Tories succeeding in their wish to portray this as somehow an example of the country returning to days that have been left far behind. So, in our context, where we have a partnership approach with our trade unions, where we don't have a dispute with our trade unions, of course members of the Labour Party here in Wales are able to demonstrate their support for our trade union colleagues, but we operate in a different context and we come to different conclusions for very good reasons.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:54, 21 June 2022

Faced with the mounting cost-of-living crisis and a stagnating economy, the return of 1970s-style stagflation, we have a Westminster Government that thinks the appropriate response to this crisis is to cut workers' wages even further—a return to the dogma of the 1930s. It's no wonder that teachers and nurses are considering strike action. It's perhaps a sign of the times that even barristers have voted for strike action, which should ring alarm bells even with this cloth-eared Government. I think it was a strike by the Parisian order of barristers, I seem to remember, that sparked the French revolution. If England is to have its summer of discontent, can we contrast that here in Wales, within those areas that we control, with a summer of solidarity, and heed, for example, the call from the health unions for a pay deal that, at a minimum, keeps pace with soaring inflation?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:55, 21 June 2022

Well, Llywydd, let me agree with the first part of what the leader of Plaid Cymru said, because in the dispute we see in the rail industry and the ballots we see for strike action in other parts of the public services, we are reaping the whirlwind of 10 years of austerity. I think of the time and time again that Members of the Conservative benches here supported and defended that policy—that policy, which has kept wages down, which has refused to give people pay increases, and which means that, in every street here in Wales, we have families who are worse off today than when his party came into power in 2010. And when you add in rampant inflation and a Chancellor that's lost control of the economy, then there's no doubt at all that these actions are being stimulated by that compound economic failure.

The position in Wales, in relation to pay in the public sector, however, is part of the problem created by the Conservative Government. We get a fixed sum of money each year. If we are to pay some workers more than we are funded to pay them, there is nowhere for us to go. We cannot raise money ourselves to add to that. We cannot raise money ourselves—[Interruption.]

I'm very interested indeed. Llywydd, people listening will not have heard the leader of the opposition advocate putting up the taxes of people here in Wales in order to pay for people's wages because that is what he just did. He said to me that we should put up taxes in order to pay for wage increases. [Interruption.]

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:57, 21 June 2022

No, no. No point of order. I also heard you say it. [Interruption.] No, no. Let's carry on and, at some point soon, we'll come to the River Wysg and that will calm everybody down. I can't remember what Wysg—.

The First Minister's finished or—?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Llywydd, as I have explained, for us to put up the wages of people, as we would like to, as they deserve, we would have to take that money from some other part of the Welsh Government budget, and Members here will know just how stretched that budget is. It's worth £600 million less today than it was on the day that the Chancellor declared it back in November. The answer is that the UK Government has to come to that table, has to be prepared to fund those settlements properly, and then people who work in our public services will be able to be paid in the way that they deserve and we would wish to see.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:58, 21 June 2022

Now we come to the question on the River Usk. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Question 3, Peter Fox.