We'll move now to group 15. The amendments relate to the dissolution of higher education corporations. Amendment 103 is the lead amendment, and I call on Laura Jones to move the lead amendment—Laura Jones.

Amendment 103 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I want to speak to both amendments in this group. Amendments 103 and 104 both serve to remove the power for the commission to dissolve higher education corporations in Wales. It's simply unacceptable, in my view, for the commission to have the ability and it very clearly goes against my guiding principle of this Bill, which is maintaining a true arm's-length approach. As I said to the Minister at an earlier stage, this power threatens the independence of higher education corporations without a royal charter, which would have a particularly negative impact in Wales, as it covers half of our universities. Cardiff Metropolitan University has said that it would weaken rather than strengthen the sector should these universities be given less autonomy. Wrexham Glyndŵr University pointed out that this would put HECs in Wales in the weakest position across the entire UK.

In England, such provisions were removed from legislation in 2017. The Minister has still failed to justify why it is necessary to retain these powers when they have been removed elsewhere in the UK, forcing Wales into the position of a bizarre and unjustified outlier. Diolch.

Minister.

Diolch, Llywydd—

I'm sorry—

Caught napping. Hefin David.

Everybody's delighted that you've called me [Laughter.] I wanted to say that I don't think these amendments actually reflect the fact that the institutions are threatened by this. I don't think their independence is threatened by it, so I don't support the amendments in the group. But, I still would like some clarity from the Minister, because you do need some mechanism to dissolve higher education corporations, and that mechanism needs to be included in legislation. The crux of the amendments is that Ministers can still dissolve a higher education corporation without consent if they consider consent to be unreasonably withheld, and that is the significant point.

So, two questions to the Minister: are there any imminent scenarios—and I say to the Minister that's the key point: any imminent scenarios—in which Welsh Government would consider consent to be unreasonably withheld, and does the Welsh Government have any expectation of using dissolution powers other than at the request of a higher education corporation?

I cannot support amendments 103 and 104. The retention of a backstop power to dissolve a higher education corporation is, in fact, necessary to ensure that, in very exceptional circumstances, and subject to safeguards and protections, arrangements can be made to smoothly and at appropriate speed dissolve a HEC and ensure arrangements can be made for the transfer of learners, property, rights and liabilities to other institutions in a controlled manner. As I say, it's a backstop power to ensure that we are able effectively to protect both public money and learner interests.

To address the points that Hefin David has raised, I do not intend this power to facilitate the Welsh Ministers dissolving higher education as part of some grand restructuring. The Welsh Ministers can make an Order without the consent of the higher education corporation in question only where they consider consent has been unreasonably—

Will the Minister take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

Some years ago, the then Minister for education wanted to amalgamate Newport university, the University of Glamorgan and the university of Cardiff Metropolitan here in Cardiff. Under the powers that you're putting through in this Bill, would the Minister be able to drive through such change? Today, we enjoy Cardiff Metropolitan as one of the most successful post-1992 universities because, at that time, the Minister for education couldn't force that merger through.

It's that kind of concern that was recognised at Stage 2, when the amendments were brought forward to provide the additional protections, which the Bill, as it comes to Stage 3, already contains. 

As I was saying, the Order can only be made without the consent of the corporation itself where that consent has been unreasonably withheld or delayed. A decision by Welsh Ministers that consent has been unreasonably withheld or delayed will be amenable to challenge by judicial review in the courts, and, in the very exceptional circumstances where Welsh Ministers consider that consent has been unreasonably withheld, their reasoning for coming to that view will have to be strong enough to justify that decision, and the decision will need to have been taken in accordance with public law principles, or else it could be struck down or declared unlawful. So, that protection is a new protection in the Bill, included as a consequence of Stage 2 discussions.

There is a further safeguard in the Bill, which is provided by the requirement that Ministers publish and keep under review a statement setting out the circumstances in which it's proposed to exercise the power to make an Order to dissolve a HEC in Wales. And, prior to making that statement, Ministers are required to consult persons they consider appropriate, and to lay the statement before the Senedd as soon as possible after its publication.

The charter institutions and HECs have been created and dissolved using different legal mechanisms. That's the fundamental difference between the two, and the Bill, as amended at Stage 2, ensures that there are greater similarities between the institutions in that regard. That has been the objective of the amendments that we've already made to the Bill, and that universities in Wales that are higher education corporations are not substantively disadvantaged when compared to charter universities, where, even in those circumstances, there may need to be a necessary dissolution, subject to the safeguards.

I want to thank Universities Wales for having worked with us, worked with my officials, in relation to this. I absolutely recognise that the amendments I brought forward at Stage 2 don't provide the entirety of what Universities Wales were looking for, but I believe that they strike an appropriate balance between the autonomy of individual institutions and the responsibility of Government to step in should there be a need to do so in very exceptional circumstances, and so I call on Members to reject these amendments.

Laura Jones to respond.

Diolch, Llywydd. It's good to hear Hefin David, the Member for Caerphilly, and my leader, Andrew R.T. Davies, understand the basis of our concerns in this regard. We appreciate that some changes have been made, Minister, but to fully address these concerns would only be to approve our amendments today. It's absolutely unnecessary for the commission to wield the power to dissolve higher education corporations, and represents what I can only describe as a prime example of overreach and mission creep. I reiterate my stance that a true arm's-length approach, in every sense, ought to be pursued in relation to this Bill, and I would ask Members to support us.

The question is that amendment 103 be agreed. Are there any objections? [Objection.] We will therefore vote on amendment 103. Open the vote. 

Amendment 103.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 103 is not agreed. 

Amendment 103: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Laura Jones, amendment 104, is it moved?

Amendment 104 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It is moved. Is there an objection to amendment 104? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore, we'll have a vote on amendment 104. Open the vote.  

Amendment 104.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 104 is not agreed.

Amendment 104: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected