Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on building safety. I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, for the opportunity to update Members on our action to tackle what is a complex and sensitive issue. Members will know that I am committed to addressing building safety in Wales and continue to take forward our building remediation programme, alongside a significant programme of reform, to establish a fit-for-purpose building safety regime in Wales.

At the heart of our approach to remediation is the principle that developers should contribute towards the costs of fixing these problems, and leaseholders should not be made to pay for fire safety issues that are not of their own making. Since the opening of the Welsh building safety fund we have received 258 expressions of interest from responsible persons who know or suspect that their building may have fire safety defects. 

We have completed digital surveys for all of these and have identified 161 buildings that require further, intrusive survey work. This will involve our surveyors undertaking a detailed investigation of both internal and external fire safety issues, such as cladding and compartmentation. The work has begun and will continue over the summer.

While we continue to receive expressions of interest, I understand there are still some responsible persons who have not engaged and are still passing on costs to leaseholders. This is extremely disappointing, and I urge any leaseholder in this situation, who know or suspect that their building is affected by fire safety issues, to contact my officials, who can support them in taking forward an expression of interest.

I have spoken to many leaseholders and continue to meet residents in buildings affected by fire safety issues across Wales. I am very well aware of the impact of increased insurance costs, higher service charges, and the difficulties people are experiencing in remortgaging or selling their homes. I have written to all managing agents in Wales to make clear that I have set aside £375 million to cover the costs of remediating buildings, and I've repeatedly stated publicly that leaseholders should not foot the bill for fire safety defects.

I am also taking action on developers.  I was very disappointed that the UK Government chose to pursue its building safety pledges on an England-only basis, despite a number of meetings in which the devolved Governments made it clear that a UK-wide approach was the best for leaseholders. I am pleased to say, however, that we have moved the UK Government on this point and have also moved swiftly to implement a comparable approach here in Wales.

I have written to developers and invited them to meet with me. I am pleased to say that a number of developers have already agreed to meet and discuss their plans. I've also published a list of developers who have chosen not to engage, and I am exploring what further action this Government might take with developers who continue not to engage.

I do understand, though, for some residents in affected buildings, these changes will just not come soon enough. To support those in or facing the most urgent financial hardship, the leaseholder support scheme opened yesterday for applications. This new scheme will provide tailored, independent advice to leaseholders in affected homes. The package of support is targeted at leaseholders who are owner-occupiers, and those who have become displaced residents. However, we will be monitoring applications and reviewing eligibility criteria to ensure those who need support the most have access to the scheme.

All leaseholders who are eligible for this scheme will receive advice from an independent financial adviser, with the costs fully covered by the Welsh Government. The advice will support them in making the right choice for them, recognising that the circumstances will be different for each household. If the sale of their property is the right route, the Welsh Government will enable them to sell their property at a fair market value. Full guidance on the scheme, including the eligibility criteria, is now available on the Welsh Government website.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the external partners and sector experts who have assisted us in developing this scheme at pace. Their support and hard work have been critical to establishing the right qualifying criteria and the support processes.

Alongside this programme of support and remediation of buildings, we continue to take forward work on the cultural changes and legislative reforms needed to prevent this situation arising again. We have worked with the UK Government to ensure relevant elements of the Building Safety Act 2022 will apply here in Wales. The Act will allow us to reform the building control system, to help prevent a recurrence of a tragedy such as Grenfell. The Act also introduces a number of important provisions aimed at improving the rights of home buyers, including extending rights of action and the creation of the new homes ombudsman.

I want to ensure our building safety reforms are practical and accessible for people.  We will continue to undertake a series of measures to engage directly with leaseholders and tenants to gain a broad range of residents' views. This work will help to further strengthen the resident's voice so that it remains at the heart of our policy development.

Unfortunately, there are no quick or easy fixes, and I cannot compromise on achieving the right, sustainable solution. Anything else leaves the door open to further issues arising. It is important that these matters are resolved once and for all. We must do this properly to get it right now and for the future. 

I welcome the continued commitment from Plaid Cymru to this agenda and look forward to working in partnership with their designated Member on our collective aim, to ensure our buildings are as safe as possible from the outset. Diolch. 

Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Of course, it's hard to realise, Minister, isn't it, that five years on from the Grenfell tragedy, residents in Wales are still facing the financial burden of cladding and other fire safety risks, because, I think, sometimes, the agenda has just been mentioning cladding, and you've rightly pointed out that there are other aspects of some buildings that are a risk in terms of fire safety.

We now see people at risk of bankruptcy and potentially losing their homes. As you know, leaseholders have seen their service and insurance charges increase significantly. Only yesterday, I was e-mailed by someone outside of my constituency, who raised with me her concerns as a leaseholder owning an apartment, bought from Redrow, located in Cardiff. Residents there have recently witnessed service costs increase from £3,000 to nearly £7,800 annually, with reports indicating that building insurance premiums are increasing exponentially by up to 1,000 per cent.

In contrast, if we look at the work the UK Government is doing, a package of measures to protect leaseholders from the financial costs of cladding remediation and other aspects have been introduced. As part of the measures announced, the UK Government put into law its own guarantee that no leaseholders living in medium or high-rise buildings would have to pay for the removal of this cladding. Furthermore, developers and the UK Government have reached an agreement to fund building safety repairs. Over 35 of the UK's biggest developers have pledged to remediate buildings they have built within the last 30 years. So, you can understand—. And it's a bit annoying when you politicise this by mentioning Plaid Cymru, because, at the end of the day, I honestly do believe that nobody has held you more to account on this than the Welsh Conservatives. So, our residents in Wales do need tangible funding options.

Going back to your statement, you mentioned 258 expressions of interest from responsible persons who know or suspect their building may have fire safety defects, and that 161 buildings require further intrusive survey work. So, my first question is: how assured are you that you're really getting through to all those people affected? I understand that there are some responsible persons who have not engaged and still passing costs onto leaseholders. This is extremely disappointing, you say, and you urge any leaseholders in this situation who know or suspect their building is affected by fire safety issues to contact your officials. I suppose my biggest question there is: what will you do if they don't?

Obviously, we're very grateful to see that you have put £375 million to cover the costs of remediating buildings, and that you've repeatedly stated publicly that leaseholders should not foot the bill for fire safety defects. But when I've seen other people concerned, who live in some of these properties, they really do feel on their own in terms of how do they know they're going to be included in your schemes if the people responsible for their buildings—maybe the management companies—don't actually approach you. So, you can understand the concerns there.

Just basically, really, I see that the leaseholder support scheme opened yesterday for applications. Will you keep us updated on that, Minister? And I'll reiterate this again: the Welsh Conservatives are on your side when it comes to these developers, who have left these residents, these poor home owners in such a tragic position. So, I would say again: this shouldn't be politicised; I'm convinced that we have support from across all parties in this Chamber, but we really do need to make sure that not one householder is left behind when it comes to making sure that their homes are safe to live in. Diolch.

Thank you, Janet. I think I actually answered all your questions in my statement. But just to reiterate, if anyone thinks that their management company, or the management arrangements for their building—because there's a huge range of complex ways of managing these buildings—haven't been included, then just get in touch directly with us. It's easy enough to do—you can e-mail me directly if you need to. So, it's straightforward to do. We will check that the building is included currently in the expressions of interest, to put people's minds at rest if it is included and they don't know that, and that has happened. Or, if they're not included, then we will go the extra mile to get in touch with the management arrangements for that building, and make sure that every effort is made to make those people apply. But in the end, I can't make them, and that's one of the problems.

So, one of the issues about the way that these buildings is managed is one of the things we need to address, and one of the things we're currently waiting on is working with the UK Government on the wider leasehold reform package that needs to come in the wake of all of these. I was disappointed that wasn't in the Queen's Speech, but we're reassured that it's coming, and our officials are working together to do that, because we have extremely similar problems across England and Wales. It's very different in Scotland, where they have a different system.

So, I very much hope that the UK Government will work with us on that. We were disappointed that they left us out of the original plans, but, in fairness, they have now decided to work with us, and I'm very grateful for that. And in addition, we've been doing a number of things ourselves. So, I was already meeting with the developers before the UK Government started. When the UK Government started to meet with developers, then, obviously, they have much bigger pockets than us, and so, developers unfortunately lost interest in talking to us. However, they have regained that interest, and I'm very glad for that. And we have a range of developers saying that they will sign the pledge for Wales as well; Redrow is one of those. Actually, the contract isn't quite finalised with the UK Government yet, so, when it is, it will be extended to Wales by those developers who have already said on the record they will. And I have a range of meetings with developers anyway, going forward, in Wales, to try and see what we can do.

On the insurance point, just briefly, we have discussed this with the UK Government. We need a scheme very similar to the Flood Re scheme, and so, actually, I'm afraid, only the UK Government can do that. We just do not have the heft to be able to do that. So, we've been pushing them to do that, and I am hopeful that, in the next inter-ministerial group, we will be able to discuss how and when they will be able to bring the insurers to the table. And, frankly, Janet, anything you can do to assist us to get the UK Government to do that, I'd be very, very grateful for.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhys ab Owen.  

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. I am grateful for the update. And I'm sure any support for leaseholders is greatly welcomed. I also appreciate the need to get this right. It was cutting corners, it was greed with malpractice that led to this tragic situation in the first place, and it was successive Westminster Governments of all political colours that ignored building safety warnings, whilst developers chose profit over people. To give just an example: the dangerous refurbishment of Grenfell, commissioned by the UK's richest council, cost only £10 million. In contrast, the public inquiry into that disaster has already cost £150 million, and is due to pass the £1 billion mark by the end.

We have seen, following Grenfell, a complete merry-go-round of buck passing, and the complexity of such developments has made real accountability nearly near impossible. It's certainly far too difficult. We must ensure that such a tragedy, and the opportunity of passing the buck, as we've seen so often, never happens again. Michael Gove has said that he would use powers to pursue managing agents and developers that don't comply. Will you? And, when do you foresee that the leaseholder protections within the Building Safety Act 2022 will be implemented in Wales?  

The question you get, and the question I get, and every Member here who's spoken to leaseholders, is, 'When will this nightmare come to an end?' They feel in a limbo, and they cannot see, despite the statements by Welsh Government, despite what's being said in Westminster, the end of this nightmare. Can you provide any form of timetable to these leaseholders on when the remediation work will be completed in Wales?

I was fairly pleased to read that you've contacted all of the management agents in Wales and that you've given them a guarantee that you will cover the work. However, we do still hear from leaseholders about management agents still spending a huge amount of their money. Did you receive a positive response from most of the agents? And what can we do to ensure that no more money demands are placed on leaseholders during this period? 

You have cross-party support here, Minister, with regard to the cascade principle: we all agree that the leaseholder should be the final one, and we all agree that the first people that should be paying are the developers themselves. Following your discussions with them, do you foresee the Welsh Government saving some of the £375 million that you have committed to this work? And, as far as the developers that haven't engaged, I am pleased that you have named them, and I hope that that will shame them into action. If it doesn't, I do hope that Welsh Government makes sure that they don't receive a penny more of public sector contracts and they don't receive a penny more of work here in Wales. We don't want people who've shown a complete disregard to building safety, and then a complete disregard to mental anguish and financial hardship, to be involved in the construction industry here in Wales. 

It's good to hear about the leaseholder support scheme that opened yesterday. What do you plan to do with some of the flats that you do eventually buy from the leaseholders? And I'll finish with this, Dirprwy Lywydd: this scandal has, once again—and this is probably where I differ from my friend on the opposite benches—this scandal has, once again, shone a light on the unfairness of leaseholds. I hope, in considering future reforms, that the Welsh Government brings to an end this feudal relic.

I had a lovely conversation on Friday with the former Minister Sue Essex, and she was talking about the campaign she had with my father in the 1970s for leasehold reform in Cardiff. Because of campaigns like that across the United Kingdom, leasehold was a dying form of tenure, yet it has returned with vengeance, to the detriment of thousands of people, many of them our neighbours here in Cardiff Bay. It is time for Wales to join the international stage to reject this old-fashioned, unfair practice, like Scotland, Ireland and Australia have done—an end to leasehold in our country, an end to ground rent, and an end to non-resident management companies. Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd.

I completely agree with your exposition on the subject. It is slightly more complicated, however. When Sue Essex was doing her piece of work, one of the areas that we were looking at was commonhold and the Scottish system, but actually the building safety scandal has really highlighted some serious defects in the way that commonhold works and the way that the liability is passed on. So, we need to learn the lessons from Scotland about why that system has not been able to produce a simple, unified solution, because it certainly hasn't. The Scottish Government, I can assure you, are in the meetings with us and the UK Government with all the same problems that we have. So, we need to find a system that works for everyone and doesn't have that.

It's a combination of things, isn't it? We do absolutely need to reform leasehold. She's not here anymore, but I just said to Janet Finch-Saunders that one of the things we want to do in this instance actually is work with the UK Government. It's not because I don't want to do it myself, it's actually because most of the developers who build the high-rise buildings in particular work across England and Wales, and frankly they just don't build enough of them here for us to be able to make a significant financial impact on them, so we need the UK Government's broader heft in that instance to bring them to heel. What I don't want to happen is that we put provisions in place here in Wales, like a levy, for example, and all it means is they just build the buildings to 1 ft below that and the levy is ineffective. So, we do have to be a bit careful about the scale of some of this, but otherwise I completely agree with you.

The other thing we need to do is put in place a regime that makes sure that it never happens again, so that there are joint inspection teams and all the rest of it. Use of modern technology, frankly, filming the whole thing and so on, will make sure that we absolutely know what's inside those buildings without having to make a great big hole in your living room wall to have a look, and that we have proper inspection regimes and proper systems of accountability for who is accountable at which stage of the building. So, design, development, occupation—we need different regimes for those. We've been working on that very hard for a long time. We've been consulting with partners and local authorities. It will be different in Wales; we trust our local authority partners, so we'll be making them the inspectors and so on. So, we're well advanced on that work

And then just on the timescale for the remediation phase, we're in the middle of the intrusive surveys. It's easy to say that, standing here, isn't it? But an intrusive survey is intrusive. People really are having big holes cut in their homes. So, we need to do that in conjunction with those residents and to make sure that they're able to live with that. But those should all be complete by the end of the summer, and then we'll go into the remediation phase. I'm absolutely confident that in the early autumn term, for this place, we will have the first buildings going into the remediation phase. What I'm not able to tell you is when we'll have the last one done, because obviously we currently have 161 buildings with expressions of interest. We only have so many builders who can do this work and so on, so I'm afraid I can't put a backstop on it, but I can give you the start. Once the building starts going we'll obviously learn from that, we'll increase the workforce and so on. 

The last point I wanted to make was that I want the developers to pay for it, but I don't want to hold the work up, so we have a scheme in place now that allows us to do it. The developers will have to come to a deal with us about how they pay for that, rather than us go through yet another iteration of arguments about who's going to actually cough up for the builders who are doing the work. So, just to say we're on to that, but we need to make sure that that happens properly and doesn't hold the work up.

I very much welcome the statement. I and my constituents are also disappointed the UK Government chose to pursue its building safety pledges on an England-only basis. Didn't we used to have a lot of LCMs from them? I have two areas of my constituency that have buildings affected. I agree with the principle that developers should contribute towards the cost of fixing these problems—they were the ones who created these problems in the first place. I'd go further and say I believe that the developers should fully fund remediation. Unfortunately, in Swansea East, there are buildings built by Carillion, which has gone out of business. Who is going to fund putting these buildings right? I'm also told that other buildings were built by a single purpose vehicle that now no longer exists. I welcome the £375 million to cover the cost of remediating buildings. You state publicly that leaseholders should not foot the bill for fire safety, which I'm sure they'll be very pleased to hear. How far will that sum go to remedying the fire safety problems? Finally, is this not another reason for bringing in a new set of building controls and an end to leasehold?

Thank you, Mike. You know I've met with a number of the residents and yourself in the buildings affected in your constituency, and we're very anxious that those residents who've done the right thing are properly looked after in this scheme as well, so that's yet another complexity. You highlight the problem of the multiplicity of different arrangements. There is one building in my own constituency that you're very familiar with where absolutely everybody has gone bankrupt, including the designer, three lots of developers, the insurance companies—it's just an absolute disaster. And that's why we have to have a backstop for those people, because if we were relying on developers to do that, there is no such entity left in order to take that on. That's why the Welsh Government is prepared to put public money into doing it, because for some people there isn't anyone. 

The complexities of the single purpose vehicle building company that bears the name of a large corporation on it but actually, legally, is a separate company is one of the biggest issues that we've had to face. Rhys, I think, mentioned trying to stop people having further contracts and so on, but when you go into the legals of it, they're not the same company, and that's proved a real problem. So, we rely on the UK Government to change some of the law that isn't devolved to Wales around protections in those circumstances, in the Building Safety Act 2022 and other areas, so that we can do that. And we will be looking to improve the way that we enable people to apply and execute planning consent—sorry, I'm talking to two different people now here. Basically, what we're saying is a duplicate of what the English Government is looking at, which is to stop people being able to take advantage of a planning consent they already have if they have unremediated buildings bearing their corporate name. But it's more complicated than just saying, 'This company can't do it', because there is a multiplicity of them.

So, I agree with all of that. I completely agree with the reform of leasehold, but as I said to Rhys, one of the things we have to do now is learn from the Scottish experience, because we had been very attracted to that, but actually they've had a number of problems with that system as well.

Good afternoon, Minister. I'm sorry that you're going to have to address this circle of people again. Thank you for your statement, Minister, and thank you also for meeting with homeowners and myself a few weeks ago—I'm very grateful. There are a few matters that I just wanted to raise. I know from correspondence with you and your officials in the last few weeks that you are due to bring forward a residents engagement strategy. I welcome this, and I know that you are committed to that, because I know that you also appreciate the frustrations that many of the homeowners and leaseholders have, which obviously exacerbate their mental health and the stress that they feel. I know that you are committed to this broad, open homeowner group to engage directly, although I do recognise that it is complex and that there are various layers. So, I wondered if you could just very briefly outline what your plan would entail and what sort of mechanisms or opportunities will be available for those homeowners to engage with you and to be communicated with. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

Certainly, Jane. It was a pleasure to meet with you and the group that you brought with you. I've been meeting with a number of groups—with Mike and others—for a very long time now. What we're wanting to ensure is that those groups of people who haven't managed to make their way to us in one form or another are also included. We don't necessarily want the loudest voices to always be the people that we're engaging with, so what we're looking to do is to see if we can get a strategy where we have representatives from the widest range of people that we can get hold of—I'm particularly interested in contacting those who haven't particularly been in contact with us—and to make sure that we have that range of voices. We're also just looking to make sure that we have residents from every type of management arrangement, so that we've got a multitude of voices. We have all kinds of different management arrangements, from co-operatives to really hierarchical management companies and every sort of thing you can think of. So, trying to get a range of voices to make sure that we've got every point of view, I suppose, is what we're after. I particularly want to do that, partly because we want to make sure the remediation goes well, but actually much more importantly, we want to make sure that we understand from their experience what we're trying to fix, so that in designing our new system we're absolutely certain that we've covered off all of the issues that have arisen and made sure that they can't happen again. That's the holy grail, isn't it, to make sure that we bombproof the new system, and that's what I'd be most grateful for the residents' input on, as well as obviously on the remediation phase.

I thank the Minister.