Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. Although there is no absolute doctrine of separation of powers in the UK, the concept of separation of powers between the legislature, i.e. Senedd, Executive, i.e. Welsh Government, and the judiciary has long applied in and across the UK to prevent the concentration of power by providing checks and balances—[Interruption.] I'm sorry. I didn't hear you very clearly.

You don't need to hear him. Carry on with your question.

Last September, referring to the Law Commission consultation paper on devolved tribunals in Wales to help shape the tribunal Bill for Wales, designed to regulate a single system for tribunals, I asked you for your initial response to the consultation paper's proposals to reform the Welsh Tribunals unit, the part of the Welsh Government that currently administers most devolved tribunals, into a non-ministerial department.

Last December, the Law Commission published its final report on devolved tribunals in Wales, which included that

'we are persuaded that the non-ministerial department model is the one that should be adopted for the future administration of the system of devolved tribunals in Wales'.

Although this also stated:

'The tribunals service should be operationally independent from the Welsh Government', your subsequent written statement on devolved tribunals in Wales only states that:

'The Welsh Government strongly endorses the fundamental principle of the Law Commission’s recommendations for a unified, single structurally independent system of tribunals in Wales.'

What conclusions have you therefore now reached after considering the Law Commission's findings regarding this specific point?

Well, thank you for the question. You do raise a very serious and a very important point, and again I'd say very constructively. We dealt with some of the issues arising from the reform of tribunals in, of course, our 'Delivering Justice for Wales' paper. Consideration is being given now to what the structure of a tribunals Bill might look like, what the legislation might look like, how we might implement the recommendations of the Law Commission.

Perhaps the best assurance I can give to the Member at this stage is this: my views are very firmly that what we would be effectively creating is the embryonic structure of a Welsh devolved justice system. We would be using that part of the justice system that is already devolved and extending it further to create an appellate structure. So, the points that the Member raises are absolutely fundamental, and that is that that part of the justice system has to be independent of Government, not only seen to be, but, equally so, I think, administratively separate from Government. Of course, there are relationships, as you have with the justice system and with the Government and in respect of that funding, but it has to be a model that ensures the independent operation of the Welsh Tribunals unit, of that part of the justice system, and that the appointments to it, and in addition, importantly, the president of Welsh Tribunals and the functions that that person would carry out, are again those that have the full underlying principles of the rule of law requiring the independence of judiciary and those who participate within it.

Diolch. Well, I hope that means, as they said, that that will deliver operational independence from politicians, especially.

But, as I said here in March 2019 on a different subject, the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru White Paper, 'Securing Wales' Future', which called for continued membership of the EU single market, would mean no control of our borders, our trade and our laws, and would therefore be Brexit in name only. 

Speaking here last week, the First Minister extolled the virtues of Wales and the UK being inside the single market, although he appeared to back-pedal on this yesterday after Keir Starmer's statement that Labour has ruled out rejoining the single market as party policy, but claimed that he could remove trade and travel barriers nonetheless. What advice would you therefore give as Counsel General to both the First Minister and Mr Starmer about the legal barriers applying to this?

Well, the first bit of advice I'd give is to maintain the importance of international law and the rule of law. The second bit of advice I'd give is to oppose and not to support any bits of legislation that undermine those principles, one of them would be to, obviously, oppose the direction of the bill of rights, which, in fact, is transferring legal rights to citizens from UK courts to the European Court of Human Rights, so it's actually moving away the rights of people, and would be essentially to underpin those principles in all legislation that we have to ensure that they are entrenched constitutionally and to actually support those steps that are necessary to enable the devolved nations—the devolved Parliaments of the United Kingdom—to be able to ensure that they’re also entrenched within their own legal systems.

Thank you—an interesting response. Of course, the court of human rights is outside the EU structure completely and, as you know, the UK played an integral part in establishing it, but there we are.

Well, of course, the UK Government has been seeking to negotiate an agreement to tackle the barriers that do exist in order to maximise opportunities for low-friction trade and safeguard the integrity of the UK single market—something that any UK Government would encounter barriers with. In the meantime, is it not the case in law that, although the job is not finished and the UK needs to go further and faster to deliver the opportunities of Brexit for the entire UK, because of Brexit the UK Government has been able to deliver the fastest vaccine roll-out anywhere in Europe, cut VAT and red tape, strike 73 trade deals and announce the delivery of new free ports, including an initial one in Wales? And further is it not also the case that the UK has topped the chart in attracting the most fintech investment across Europe, that the UK has reclaimed the top spot in Europe and the second place internationally after the US in the global soft power index, and, brilliantly, that Welsh food and drink exports hit a record high in 2021, including a £51 million increase to the EU?

Of course, I met recently with the Minister Jacob Rees-Mogg in order to talk about the issue of retained EU law, which I think your question was beginning to identify. And of course, the Minister for Brexit opportunities, and if a book were written about that, it would be certainly a very short book indeed—. A number of the points that you raised, I think, really relate to other portfolios, but are very, very questionable. The overwhelming number of the trade deals that have been struck are effectively just the rebadging of deals that had already come into place in connection with the European Union in any event.

What I will say is this: firstly, in respect of retained EU laws, clearly, there is going to be a very significant amount of work that has to be undertaken there. I have been given assurances that devolution will be respected. I am monitoring that very closely to ensure that, when it comes to devolved areas, all of the 2,000-or-so laws that have been identified so far, those ones that relate to devolved issues are ones that are dealt with in this place and are the responsibility of this place and do not result in the undermining of the devolution settlement. Now, I believe I have been given an assurance to some degree. We’ll wait and see how that is implemented. This is also an issue that I raised recently at the Interministerial Standing Committee, chaired by Michael Gove, and I, of course, will not only be monitoring this, but obviously I’m sure it will be scrutinised by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. But, of course, any significant developments will be reported back to this Senedd.

Questions now from the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhys ab Owen. 

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Cwnsler Cyffredinol, in a recent article for The National newspaper, a leading Welsh academic, Richard Wyn Jones, said that the debate about the future of Wales's constitution lacked realism. He said that, despite there being a strong consensus in Wales for further powers, there's obviously no appetite for it in the Westminster Government and he said that there's no evidence from Keir Starmer that he supports further powers for the Senedd. In fact, if I remember correctly, he said in an ITV interview that he wasn't pressured at all to give further powers to this Senedd. Therefore, how certain can you be, if or when they come into power, that Keir Starmer and the Labour Party in Westminster will grant the Senedd further powers?

Well, the first thing, many of those changes are dependent on a change in Government. I suppose I can say that that is looking increasingly likely day by day, and I look forward to working with the next Labour Government sooner rather than later—perhaps imminently, I might even say—to actually talk about constitutional reform.

As far as the leader of the Labour Party is concerned, well, of course, he has empowered Gordon Brown to prepare a constitutional commission. There is a report that is awaited there that will obviously be of considerable interest, I think, to all of us within Wales, in terms of the issue of constitutional reform. But it is also the case that constitutional reform doesn't come from what is decided in Westminster or within the UK, and that is why we have our own independent commission, and that is to actually be able to assess ourselves what the future of Wales should look like, and also to put that then to the people of Wales. Because any significant constitutional change of that type ultimately is something that belongs to the ownership of or belongs to the people of Wales, and is ultimately decided by the people of Wales through our own elections.

I agree with you there, Cwnsler Cyffredinol: the answer is here in Wales. And I was rather concerned when the First Minister, last week, seemed to suggest that the answer was a Labour Government in Westminster. Now, Brexit is totally incompatible with the Good Friday agreement and it's leading toward the reunification of Ireland. The leader of the Labour Party won't admit that Brexit is a disaster. The Westminster Government and the Westminster Labour Party won't allow self-determination for the Scottish people. The Westminster Government is trying to repeal Welsh primary legislation, whilst the Labour leader in Westminster bans his shadow Cabinet members from supporting workers. Cwnsler Cyffredinol, are you a member of Labour for Indy yet? [Laughter.]

Well, thank you for that very pejorative question, and I will give a perhaps less pejorative answer to it. The points you make about Brexit, I don't think there's any real dispute for fair-minded, fair-thinking people that Brexit has not been good for Wales, it has not been good for the United Kingdom, and it has not been good for Europe. The constitutional question is how do we actually develop frictionless trade with Europe, which is something we all want to see, and, of course, the First Minister dealt with that very thoroughly yesterday.

In terms of those who are entitled to attend picket lines, well, I was very pleased to join the Member not so long ago, at Cardiff station, supporting those people in the railway network who were taking industrial action against Network Rail, the rail companies, and, effectively, against the UK Government, but not against the Welsh Government.