Item 7 today is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on basic income and the transition to a zero-carbon economy, and I call on Jane Dodds to move the motion.

Motion NDM8028 Jane Dodds, Jack Sargeant, Luke Fletcher, Carolyn Thomas

Supported by Delyth Jewell

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes:

a) that a significant number of Welsh workers are employed in industries that will undergo significant change as part of Wales's transition to a zero carbon economy;

b) the importance of ensuring a just transition to a zero carbon economy;

c) the Welsh Government’s ongoing basic income (BI) pilot for care leavers.

2. Calls on the Welsh Government to consider how the BI pilot could be extended to workers in these industries to inform Wales’s transition to a zero carbon economy.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you so much to the Business Committee for choosing this motion.

In the last three months, monsoon rains unleashed disastrous flooding in Bangladesh; brutal heat waves seared parts of south Asia and Europe; prolonged drought has left millions on the brink of famine in east Africa; and, close to home, look at what's happening here: we're experiencing extremely high temperatures. This Senedd and the Government have recognised the climate and ecological crisis that we face. So, the case for transitioning our economy and our society to ones that live within the means of our planet's limited resources is, right now, irrefutable.

But the question is how we support the nearly 220,000 jobs across Wales in industries that will, as a consequence of our transition to net zero, inevitably cease to exist in the future. We cannot be bystanders while workers and communities undergo the most rapid and significant change in decades. The International Institute for Labour Studies has said that we live in times of chronic high unemployment, when new jobs are mostly created on low pay scales, with a distinct lack of benefits and security, stagnating or declining real incomes, and social security systems that are either completely absent or tightly rationed.

Our ambition for workers and our communities must be far-reaching and all-embracing as part of our transition to net zero. It will not be a fair or just transition if workers lose their jobs or go into vulnerable employment. We are being warned that countries that fail to prepare for this economic shift towards more vulnerable work will be increasingly hard hit by the instabilities associated with climate breakdown. We have to deliberately and proactively disrupt that dangerous trend towards precarious work. And a significant change, we are being warned, will come.

We have to ensure that our transition is not just well planned, but is socially just. For this reason, I'm proposing that Welsh Government extend the ongoing basic income pilot to include those employed in high-carbon intensive industries. Many of you will be aware of my support for a universal basic income, unlocking the potential and freedom of people from all walks of life who are held back and prevented from shaping their own futures. A basic income targeted at workers directly impacted by our transition to net zero would ensure that they are protected and empowered to determine their futures. It would serve as a safety net whilst our economy shifts and industries adapt.

I welcome the ongoing work from Welsh Government in their plan for green employment, but this does not address how Wales ensures it is a just transition. The plan lacks clarity on which industries will be supported and what support will be available. Only £1 million has been allocated for this financial year to a Net Zero Wales skills action plan, which does not reflect the urgency nor the scale, when it has been identified that there are around 15 industries across Europe that are likely to undergo significant change.

To finish, a basic income pilot, I believe, will shine a light on the potential of a basic income to support workers not only to transition to a zero-carbon economy, but to help Wales become a fairer, greener, more just society. I hope the Senedd can support those workers and this proposal today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth took the Chair.

I'd like to take the opportunity to thank Jane Dodds for giving us the opportunity once again to debate a basic income in this Senedd, and I'm pleased to be able to co-submit today's motion. As some of the Members will recall from the debate I led calling for Wales to lead the way and announce a trial for universal basic income here in Wales, one of the key attractions to a basic income for me is that ability to help residents manage—that safety net Jane Dodds alluded to. But it's not just a safety net there; it's the ability to allow residents to thrive, to be that springboard in a period of almost unprecedented change.

Colleagues, globally, we do face challenges that cannot be ignored—huge shifts in the way our economies and our societies will work. One of these in particular is the subject of today's debate. And that's the need to restructure our economies to meet the challenge of the climate crisis. Accept it or not, Members—and I hope Members in this Chamber, every single one of us, do accept it—the future of humanity is at risk. If we are to turn our societies carbon neutral, this will not be easy, but I am sure that it does bring great opportunity as well as challenges. Communities like mine, back in Alyn and Deeside, are built around manufacturing, and they should be at the absolute forefront of building the next generation of carbon-neutral products, the pillars of these on energy generation, sustainable transport and the retrofitting of businesses and homes.

I was proud to lead a debate calling for Wales to become the first nation in the world to disinvest in pension funds from fossil fuels, and I spoke then about the way these funds could drive investment in the types of new technologies that we need. Today's motion from Jane Dodds is about how we manage that transition. As a trained research and development engineer, which is something quite unusual for elected politics, far from a political adviser, I have the ability to recognise this huge change in our society, and the changes that we face, and the challenges that we face because of automation, digitalisation and artificial intelligence. Those jobs that we consider high skilled will be done by robots, will be done by machines. But this change is happening whether we like it or not, and whether we resist it or not. And we have to manage that transition.

One of my roles as an engineer was to manage change, and we must learn from examples where Governments have managed change catastrophically badly. And in my community of Alyn and Deeside, we've seen that first-hand. We still feel the pain of that first-hand. We were thrown to the wolves when deindustrialisation happened in the 1980s. It was an unmanaged set of changes by a Thatcherite ideology. It damaged lives and it damaged life chances. As I say, we still feel the pain in Alyn and Deeside. At the last election, the UK Tories claimed that they recognised this, and they claimed and talked about levelling up. But that just simply hasn't happened. And now—we see it, don't we—they are fast abandoning that ship and these promises, and they're even talking about a return to the Thatcherite nightmare that is associated with Alyn and Deeside—the single biggest mass redundancy in Europe. 

Acting Presiding Officer, it will fall to more bold forces to manage this change properly, to manage and explore the bold policy solutions like a universal basic income. Our Conservative Members shout, and they have shouted it before, that it can't be done. But didn't they claim that when our beloved NHS was first mooted and then delivered by Welsh Labour? So, colleagues, I do commend this motion to the Senedd today. I do hope colleagues—

Will you give way?

Yes, of course. 

You mentioned the NHS there, but as you know, and I want you to confirm this, it was a Conservative health Minister that first proposed the creation of a national health service—Henry Willink in 1941. So, to say that we've always been opposed to the national health service is factually wrong, isn't it?

Well, it's not factually wrong at all, because the person who delivered the health service was Nye Bevan. So, if you look at those facts, Joel James, you will see that. And it's not just the NHS, is it? We've heard these arguments before. It was the same argument when we tried to stop children going down the mines 100 years ago. You didn't accept that then, and you don't accept this now. 

Friends, I commend this motion to the Senedd. I do hope our colleagues from across the Chamber support our bold motion put forward, and I hope the bold Welsh Labour Government, under Mark Drakeford, will be supporting this motion today. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you, Jane, for proposing this debate. I would like to start by saying that I agree that there are significant numbers of Welsh workers who are employed in industries that will undergo significant change as part of the transition to net zero. However, I am not convinced that the transition to a zero-carbon economy in Wales is going to cause either widespread unemployment or have any negative impact on employment at all. If anything, I would argue that these industries will invest more in their staff in order to train them for their decarbonisation transition, and, as such, I am at a loss as to why people would think that it could be an unjust transition for workers as we move to a zero-carbon economy.

Furthermore, we have strong employment laws across the United Kingdom, so even if workers found themselves in a position where they were made unemployed as a result of decarbonisation, they would be compensated as appropriate. This leads me to question what evidence has been presented to suggest that, in Wales, those employed in industries that are decarbonising will actually be unjustly impacted. I believe that during the transition to zero carbon, workers will more than likely see improvements in their working conditions, and probably find better pay in the long term, as the businesses save money through more efficient technologies.

Members will be well aware that the Climate Change Committee, an independent statutory body established under the Climate Act 2008, whose purpose is to advise the UK and devolved governments on adapting, among other things, to the impacts of climate change, reports that, for Wales, and I quote,

'the Net Zero transition will bring real savings, as people use fewer resources and adopt cleaner, more-efficient technologies,' 

And so, I would argue that calling on the Welsh Government to give people money in the form of a basic income to help this transition, on the premise that workers will be unjustly impacted, is an irresponsible use of public funds.

Moreover, the idea that a basic income for those employed in decarbonising industries to help them experience a just transition is flawed, because employers will have no incentive to increase wages and return to employees the financial benefits that come from the decarbonisation of their industries. This is likely to disproportionately affect those in lower paid jobs more than higher paying jobs, thereby stunting the trend towards higher minimum wages that would likely be delivered by businesses moving to zero-carbon outputs. We have to be aware that the basic income trial will also be giving money to many people who are already very well compensated for the work, and this will be done at the expense of helping some of the poorest people in Wales.

We have to question where people believe the Welsh Government is going to find the money for this increased basic income trial. They cannot borrow it, and they should certainly not be able to do so. 

Will you take an intervention? 

Oh, sorry. Yes. 

Thank you. With regard to the £1 billion less that we've received, or not received, in Wales, is it not up to you to represent the needs of Wales to your Government in the UK, so that we get what we need? 

Sorry, but could you repeat that question again, but into the microphone? 

I do apologise, Joel. With regard to the comment that you've just made, that we should have more money in Wales, can you articulate to me why we're not receiving the money that we should have had to Wales, so that we can do more with what we should have?

We've had £8.4 billion during the pandemic. 

As Janet has already said, I think we're already adequately funded as it is. [Interruption.]

If we can listen to the response. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you, acting Llywydd. As Janet was highlighting, I think we're already adequately funded as it is. The UK Government is not going to increase the Welsh Government budget to support this costly experiment, and so the Welsh Government would have to cut money out of health, education and other budgets in Wales, which, as we have heard repeatedly in this Chamber, are sectors already in dire need. 

Last week, I visited a primary school in Cardiff whose building is in such a state of repair they've had scaffolding erected for over three years. Black mould covers classroom walls, windows can barely be opened to ventilate the school, there are significant damp problems with cracking and falling plaster, lunchtimes are staggered over two hours because 40 per cent of the playground has been lost to scaffolding, there's almost no natural light in classrooms, there's water leaking close to electrical points, and buckets have to be used to catch rainwater. I question how expanding this basic income pilot is a good use of public money when this Government will allow our nation's children to be educated in such appalling conditions.

Might I also remind Members that the basic income is not a devolved matter? We should be encouraging the Government to stop wasting money on these pointless pet projects, and use their time and resources to resolve the issues that they are tasked with, such as trying to resolve the continually falling education standards and dealing with the 700,000 people who are on NHS waiting lists. Acting Llywydd, I see no benefit for the people of Wales in this Government extending their basic income trial and wasting public money in this way. I believe that those workers in industries that are transitioning to zero carbon will not be unjustly impacted. Therefore, I would encourage all Members here to vote against this motion. Thank you.  

To start, when tackling the climate crisis, we can't focus solely on decarbonisation of the economy. It is an important part, yes, but we also need wider change in how our economy works and how we go about our day-to-day lives. We need a substantial transformation and reorganisation of the current economic system to effectively tackle climate change and respond to the consequences of the climate crisis. The poorest and the most marginalised nations and populations are the least responsible for the production of greenhouse gases, but are more likely to be exposed to the negative effects of climate change, and have more limited access to the resources needed to respond, cope and recover from the impact of the climate crisis. Inequalities have to be placed at the heart of an effective strategy for tackling climate change. Tackling the climate emergency must mean tackling poverty and inequality as well.

Now, speaking to the motion, a just transition is going to be vital. A number of Members across the Chamber have made this point in the past. We must bring people along with us on the journey to net zero. One in five Welsh workers are in climate-critical sectors, sectors that will be massively affected by the shift to net zero. These are those high-carbon sectors that so many communities in Wales rely on for employment and economic success. That's one of the reasons why I've advocated for a just transition commission since my election, so that there will be a body that monitors decisions made by Welsh Government relating to net zero and that will assess the impact on our communities and ensure that there is a plan in place for those communities, such as retraining opportunities. The Scottish Government has already established a commission of the sort.

The reality is, we can't afford to leave people behind in the same way that people were left behind when the pits closed during the Thatcher era. Jack Sargeant has already highlighted this. There was no monitoring of its effects on communities, there was no plan to deal with the aftermath, and as a result we are still feeling the effects of that period today. The same mistakes can't be made again. 

Now, of course, as the motion sets out, one way we can mitigate some of the potential effects of net zero would be through a basic income. Ensuring a floor for people that would aim to stop them falling into poverty will go a long way. And by the way, alongside the Welsh Government's policy and pilot, we don't need to look far for examples of how this would work. We've had a form of basic income for farmers for a number of years now. It's a proven concept for supporting sectors and the workers within those sectors, and I would encourage Members to vote in favour of this motion today. The shift to net zero will be a massive undertaking. It must happen. There is no credible argument to be had against it happening, but we must ensure that communities are protected and supported whilst it happens.

Finally, Cadeirydd, I'd like to thank Jane Dodds for submitting the motion, and I'm very glad that she asked me to co-submit.

Thank you to Jane for bringing this incredibly important debate, which I'm very pleased to co-submit to the Senedd. The roll-out of the Welsh Government's basic income trial is a most welcome step towards a more progressive welfare system. I look forward to seeing the results and hope that they will lead to a wider expansion of a basic income across Wales.

The path to a zero-carbon economy is not an easy one. It will require tough decisions from politicians, big changes to the way in which our society functions and adaptations to our lifestyles and behaviours. Let me be as clear as the evidence on climate change is: we have no choice but to follow that path. There is no doubt that we face tall and sometimes frightening hurdles. We must be honest about the threats they pose, particularly to carbon-intensive industries. But whilst we still have to overcome challenges along the way, transitioning to a zero-carbon economy will also provide a myriad of opportunities to build a fairer, more equal and greener society. 

It is incumbent on us as politicians to make the most of those opportunities, and in that regard I'd like to concentrate on two industries in particular: animal agriculture and care. Animal agriculture, as we know, is particularly carbon intensive, as well as being the biggest cause of river pollution. Reducing or removing our reliance on eating meat and dairy products will be vital in tackling climate change. However, the huge farmers' protests that are currently paralysing the Netherlands show how important it is that our farming transition is just and as progressive as possible. Providing a basic income to the farming industry can provide them with the headroom and opportunity to diversify their business models in preparation for a society that is less reliant on meat and dairy consumption. 

In Finland, technological leaps are being harnessed to turn bacteria and hydrogen into proteins, which can then be used to make anything from milk and eggs through to lab-grown meat and fish, all done with no harm to animals. Tweaks to these proteins could produce lauric acid, which could bring an end to the use of highly destructive palm oil. Environmental author George Monbiot predicts that this technology will make the plant versus meat-based diets argument irrelevant, and with all manner of foods created in this cellular manner, these farm-free foods, as Monbiot calls them, could allow us to hand back vast swathes of our land to nature, massively reduce pesticide use and end deforestation. And this is where the Government comes in: if this technology is harnessed by the state and kept out of the hands of the private sector, it could provide affordable and abundant healthy food for humankind. Instead of simply subsidising carbon-intensive farming, we could provide a basic income and state-owned green jobs to today's farmers to help them create the food of the future.

And in the care industry, a basic income for care workers would reshape the industry from being one with a reputation for precarious zero-hours contracts, low pay and high staff turnover to one that could transform care services, both for those who need them and for those who work in them. An extension of the basic income to care workers would not only encourage and generate employment, it would also boost equality because of the high proportion of the workforce that is female or black, Asian, minority ethnic.

In terms of helping the fight against climate change, research shows that jobs in care produce lower emissions than the average job, helping Wales on its path to a zero-carbon economy. Any serious attempt to tackle climate change requires us to reckon with the neoliberal obsession with growth and measuring GDP. Investing appropriately in a care-led recovery would show a commitment to build a society that properly appreciates non-economic measurements, such as happiness and well-being.

The effects of the climate crisis are globally debilitating on so many issues. The wheels of change in politics can be frustrating and slow to react to the demands of society, but when it comes to climate change, we simply do not have time to be slow. Wales has already shown it can lead the way on climate change. We must continue to lead by embracing the radical and ambitious solutions that will pave the way for a just transition to a zero-carbon economy. Thank you.

Despite all the moans and groans here about how short of money you are from the UK Government, costing £20 million last month, it was announced that around 500 care leavers in Wales would now receive a fixed sum of money: £1,600 every month for two years, in what the Welsh Government is referring to as a radical experiment. Not even are we a month in to these demands and they are now suggesting that the UBI be rolled out to workers in industries that will undergo significant change as a part of Wales's transition to a zero-carbon economy. What the Welsh Government fails to see, and indeed anybody who supports these aims, is that what the people of Wales need is an opportunity; they're not looking for free handouts.

In a nanny state of 22 years, Mark Drakeford and his predecessors have failed to build a modern Welsh state fit for the challenges of tomorrow. They have failed to implement core manifesto commitments, and recommendations from the Senedd on issues such as a clean air Act and legislation on marine planning in Wales. They've failed to make the most of devolution, instead maximising it to the extent of record high poverty levels amongst infants and children—

Will you take an intervention?

It's only to make a very simple point in terms of manifestos: manifestos are for the term, the duration of a whole Senedd, not for delivery on day one. Although I have to say, five of the key points that we had in Labour's manifesto have already been delivered, along with other ones that were part of the co-operation agreement. We'll get there on the other things.

Thanks for that contribution, but we'll have to beg to differ. As  far as I'm concerned, you have failed the people of Wales as regards the clean air Act.

We've got record high poverty levels amongst infants and children and low levels of investment in our towns and cities. A brain-drain era has swept across the nation, leaving our industries, civil service and hospitals short of staff and without any room for growth. The UBI pilot scheme simply epitomises the current state of Welsh Government affairs. Under its very premise, UBI presents the notion that some should be entitled—entitled—to a payout from the state and that we as individuals are owed something from others. But when has this ever been the mindset of the majority of the people of Wales? Let us not forget that Wales was once the great nation of state building here on the British isles. Well before the Magna Carta, we had Hywel's laws, the most progressive and comprehensive set of laws that set in stone a forward-thinking and a progressive Welsh society. From sowing the soil of our green fields, to mining our coal and slate mines, our coastal villages and hillside communities have prevailed over adversity, and have remained driven to improve the lives of those in our communities through their own grit, hard work and determination.

Then why did it all go wrong?

Well, we've had devolution for 24 years, with Labour, and Plaid Cymru propping them up. That's where it went wrong.

Do you not realise you've been talking about an independent Wales for the last five minutes?

I have not. Never. I won't see an independent—

Hywel Dda.

Our academics—[Interruption.] Our academics exported the ideas of liberalism and conservative ideology, fighting for land property rights, religious self-determination and cultural and heritage acknowledgment, and the right to speak the nation's mother tongue. We did not achieve this through entitlement, nor through the notion that we are owed something as a people. We have persevered because we have fought to do so. Our people and our nation are proud and have historically been respected for their own ability to get on with the job.

A change in the wind with Welsh Labour has meant that, for the past 22 years, this state has failed the people of Wales. It has failed to provide adequate education, to take forward new thinkers and pioneers. It has failed to mount a healthcare system that looks after people from day one, and it has failed to build the basic foundations of a state that nurtures growth and facilitates a modern era of Welsh statehood. This results today in paying them off and allowing future generations to pick up the pieces later. If the people of Wales are lacking opportunity, or are struggling to make ends meet, or are unable to find jobs, it is because Welsh Labour have simply failed to spend their years in Government working on policy that delivers real results to improve people's lives.

Now, of course, they will sell this UBI idea as compassionate politics. But where were they—? In fact, where are you now, when Wales has some of the highest child poverty rates in Europe? Where were they when they were given mandate after mandate to solve the issues that we so often see—

Will you take an intervention?

Seeing as it's you, yes.

Thank you so much. In regard to the UN poverty rapporteur who absolutely criticised the then dysfunctional welfare system, how do you feel that a lack of a functioning welfare system impacts on poverty in Wales? 

At the end of the day, we should be looking to give people an equal opportunity, helping them to find work, bringing out the potential of everybody, not actually saying, 'Do you know what, we'll be a nanny state and we'll just hand it out to you anyway.' Where's the incentive for anybody then to think they can be creative? It's gone.

But again, where were they when they were given mandate after mandate to solve the issues we all witness today? A failing health system, an education system with very poor standards, very bad public—[Interruption.] Oh, come on.

No, I'm afraid there's no time. We've allowed some interventions, but the clock is against us. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you. Wales has shown itself to be a world leader on much in the past. What is needed now is for this Welsh Government to reflect on the merit of its own people in how far they have carried Wales, but also how much further we can go. Today's politics should be about guaranteeing jobs for your children and for your grandchildren. This is about combating the inequalities that exist within the Welsh administrative process, and making the case—

Could you draw your comments to a close, please? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

—for finance in future generations. Vote against this today, change the Welsh Government tomorrow, and we will all certainly have a much better and brighter future.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, acting Presiding Officer. The topics of this debate today are close to the heart of this Welsh Government's priorities, as well as the priorities of Members who proposed this motion for debate today. Our programme for government sets out our plans for building a stronger, greener economy as we make maximum progress towards decarbonisation. And in our 2021 co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, we set out ambitious plans to create a low-carbon Wales and move towards net zero. This is a motion that requires a cross-Government response, clearly. And responsibility for economic policy and interventions to support industry and business lies with my colleague Vaughan Gething, Minister for Economy, but I'll outline briefly our position in relation to transitioning to a zero-carbon economy.

These are challenging times for businesses and individuals, with costs of energy and raw materials increasing significantly. And it is against this background that we need to develop a more resilient economy in Wales whilst at the same time achieving our carbon reduction goals. Achieving a just transition to net zero is essential and has been at the forefront of the Minister for Climate Change's objectives. We must take every Welsh citizen with us and leave no-one behind as we move to a greener, fairer future. And this is why the first policy in our Net Zero Wales plan is focused on a just transition, as Members have called for today. 

We need to ensure that the transition to a cleaner, fairer future in Wales and the world is carefully managed. And thank you, Jane Dodds, for drawing attention to the impact of climate change on Africa. The changes driven by the need to decarbonise our economy here and in the world will, of course, have impacts on industries, sectors of the workforce and socioeconomic groups in different ways, depending on the pathways, policies and actions that we choose. As a Government, we have a strong commitment to fair working conditions for the Welsh workforce, and this is central to our transition to a zero-carbon economy, as we move to a cleaner, stronger, fairer Wales. Employee voice and collective representation is an essential characteristic of fair work, so it's important that workers in the sectors affected have a strong voice and are effectively represented in the transition to net zero. It's vital that we engage with the workforce and businesses to develop a full understanding of the impact of the transition on the workforce in the sectors affected.

We have committed to making the transition to a zero-carbon economy in the social partnership approach led by my Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, Hannah Blythyn, bringing together Government, trade unions and employers, recognising the importance of early engagement. In creating the industries and jobs of the future, we will review the skills required for a transition to net zero and look to provide opportunities to redeploy employees from traditional industrial sectors. We will engage with the workforce and industry as part of these plans. But we've also agreed to work with the Scottish Government, through their just transition policy forum, so that we can collectively share and learn from one another.

As Jack Sargeant rightly says, we have to make the transition from a fossil fuel-based economy to one based on electricity and hydrogen, generated to a large extent from renewables—and thank you, again, Jack, for your leadership and lived work experience and expertise on these issues. Creating new infrastructure based on electricity will create many new opportunities, including in traditional manufacturing areas, and you make excellent points about the impact of the transition on the current workforce. We're committed, as I've said, to ensuring that the voice of workers is heard—those with that lived experience and understanding and skills—and that they're listened to as part of this transition.

Turning to the basic income pilot, as Members will know, on 28 June, I gave a statement announcing the start of the basic income for young care leavers in Wales pilot. The pilot is a radical and innovative project, offering financial stability to over 500 people leaving care in Wales, and many of you across this Chamber will have heard the moving statements from young people who are embarking on that pilot. It is an incredibly exciting project, giving financial stability to a generation of young people. Too many people leaving care face huge barriers to achieving their hopes and ambitions, such as problems with getting a safe and stable home to securing a job and building a fulfilling career, and this scheme will help people live a life free of such barriers and limitations. But we will carefully evaluate the lessons learnt from the pilot. Listening to everyone who takes part will be crucial in determining the success of this globally ambitious project, and we will examine whether basic income is an efficient way to support society's most vulnerable and not only benefits the individual but wider society too.

The evaluation will consider the impact of the pilot in terms of improvements in the experiences of individual care and how being part of the pilot has affected young people's lives, with regular feedback from recipients who will ensure an evaluation actually is based on their experiences and supports improvement to the pilot as it's rolled out. But, of course, it is intended that the pilot will also provide valuable information to test the stated benefits of basic income, such as addressing poverty and unemployment and improving health and financial well-being. So, it's likely to provide that valuable information and insight for the future about how the concept of basic income could apply to other groups more widely. As Members have highlighted today, it's the design and implementation testing some of the principles of basic income.

Now, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, I support this Member's motion today. It's very much in line with the Welsh Government. We've heard from the Welsh Conservatives today, echoing, I fear, many of the statements we're hearing from leadership candidates: free market, small state, deregulation, cutting taxes, cutting public services. We believe in a state that intervenes for a just transition and that we should explore every opportunity to make that work. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Jane Dodds to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, and I thank everyone who has taken part in this debate.

Can I thank my co-submitters, Jack Sargeant, Carolyn and Luke as well? Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd. Thank you to everybody also who took part, and I'm just going to pick up on some of the points that were raised, if I may. Jack, thank you for your continued support for a basic income for our care-experienced young people. That has been such a wonderful and significant change for those young people. And also you've highlighted the real experience from Alyn and Deeside of that unjust transition from fossil fuels to virtually no employment for those people. So, we must address that.

I'm going to turn to our Conservative contributors, to, firstly, Joel—thank you very much for your contributions. You talked about not understanding the need for a transition from fossil fuels to a greener way of working. Well, let me give you some evidence. We've got one here in Wales: Aberpergwm, a mine where we are looking to extend the licence, so that coal can come out of the ground still. You know that I've spoken out against that. Now, let's think if we could offer something to those workers that said, 'You don't need to work in this fossil-fuel industry. We want to support you while you become skilled up, while you look for jobs, while you have that real safety net whilst you transition.'

And Janet, wow. I've got a number of things to say, if I may, Janet. Firstly, I sit here not on the Labour benches, but this 'nanny state' has been elected for 22 years, so the Welsh people have actually chosen this Labour Government. I'm thankful to you—I'm very thankful to the Welsh Government—that we are not back in the times where you want us to be, where perhaps there were no women's rights, where children were perhaps down the mines, where there was abuse of workers. You talked about grit, hard work and determination. Some people, sadly, because of illness, because of vulnerability, because of where they live, because of their life chances, because of how they're brought up, aren't able to get that grit, hard work and determination. And I notice, Janet, you're doing something while I'm trying to address some of the points that you've raised. [Interruption.] Diolch, Mabon.

Do you agree that this, a UBI, would actually follow in the proud tradition of Wales, introduced back in 1909, when David Lloyd George introduced the Old Age Pensions Act—a great son of Dwyfor and a great Liberal in his time as well?

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yes, let's compliment each other and our political parties, apart from perhaps over on that bench. So, let's—[Interruption.]

Will you take another intervention, from Huw Irranca-Davies?

Sorry, Huw. Yes.

Jane, thank you for giving way so generously. Would you note as well that there is actually a small but significant voice in the Conservative right that actually supports UBI on the basis of freeing people and giving them the ability to be entrepreneurial, to stand on their feet, to experiment, to create their own lives? We have heard none of that today or ever from these benches in any of these debates. Where is that Conservative voice?

That's absolutely right. There is a view that, actually, universal basic income means that people can be freed up to be those entrepreneurs, to be those self-starters, and it is a shame that we didn't hear some of those positive suggestions from our colleagues over there.

I really just wanted to also talk about how Wales has been innovative. Wales has the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we have stopped the smacking of children, we have free prescriptions, no hospital charges for parking, a moratorium on road building. We are leading in these initiatives, and we should be proud of that. We shouldn't be looking back to the dark ages; we should be looking to the future.

I want to thank Luke as well for his continued support on universal basic income. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Luke. You have talked about how important it is for the poorest and most marginalised in our society to have that just transition, with one in five workers still in those high-carbon industries.

Carolyn, thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn. You talked about that path to zero carbon and how we need to take those tough decisions. You're absolutely right that we have to look at how we can support those people where those tough decisions are needed, because the climate crisis, as you say, is debilitating.

Finally, thank you to the Minister, as well—diolch yn fawr iawn—for your support and for your remarks. The Welsh Government, as we know, declared a climate emergency in 2019. I've said before that this is an emergency, and we should treat it as such. We need to use the time right now to plan how to ensure stability and security for those most vulnerable to the changes that our economy will experience in the coming years. That's why I believe that extending this pilot will give us real insight into how we balance the scales in what could be an unjust transition.

Let's remember that basic income pilots across countries across the world have shown that productivity increases with a basic income, and, again, I just appeal to the Conservatives: please, as I've said before, look at the evidence. Talk to care-experienced young people. Look at what is happening across some of those initiatives—Canada, Namibia, the Finnish experiment—going back many, many years, some of these. Please talk to care-experienced young people, don't make the assumption that it's not going to change their lives—some of us have, and we hear directly from them. So, I just appeal to you, and, if I can help you make contact with them, please do let me know.

We have to transition to net zero, but we can avoid the uncertainty associated with that transition. It needn't be inevitable. I hope the Senedd can signal our support to those workers and communities and continue to lead on a basic income here in the United Kingdom. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for a lively and respectful debate, with me taking the Chair for the first time. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. And I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.