We'll move now to item 8, Finance Committee debate, the Welsh Government's spending priorities for 2023-24. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Motion NDM8060 Peredur Owen Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the engagement work undertaken by the Finance Committee regarding the Welsh Government's spending priorities for the 2023-24 budget, and further notes the representations made by participants at the following events:

a) stakeholder event in Llanhilleth Miners’ Institute;

b) workshop with Members from the Welsh Youth Parliament; and

c) citizen engagement focus groups.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Chair. It's my pleasure to be opening this debate today on the Welsh Government’s spending priorities for 2023-24. I have mentioned previously in this Chamber that engaging with people across Wales is a priority for me as Chair, specifically to listen to the views of stakeholders on what the Welsh Government budget should include.

I am pleased to say that the committee has not been using the summer months to rest on its laurels. In fact, we've been busier than ever. We've been out talking to people who are directly affected by the decisions we make in this place and listening to their views.

Before I begin my contribution this afternoon, I'm very pleased to welcome five Members of the Youth Parliament who are in the public gallery today. I'd like to recognise them all and say hello to Fatmanur, Ruben, Ella, Ffion and Harriet. I'd also like to thank Rosemary, who took part in the workshop but is unable to attend today. These young Members gave up their own time to speak honestly and openly about the issues concerning them. I speak on behalf of all the members of the committee when I say that we were incredibly grateful for their contributions and we were very impressed with their maturity and intelligence, and I hope that we can do justice to their comments this afternoon.

Cadeirydd, our engagement work on the budget for 2023-24 was made up of three strands: the stakeholder event at Llanhilleth Miners Institute in Blaenau Gwent; as mentioned, a workshop with members of the Welsh Youth Parliament; and numerous focus groups with organisations and citizens across Wales. On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank everyone that has contributed to the work.

However, before turning to the challenges and priorities identified during these sessions, I want to express disappointment that the Welsh Government has once again decided to delay its publication of the draft budget for next year until 13 December at the latest or within four weeks of the UK Government’s autumn budget. Although I do recognise the reasons why the Welsh Government is taking this approach, it is regrettable that this will mean less time for stakeholders to engage with the committee's calls for evidence and scrutiny sessions. Nonetheless, we are grateful that the Minister is open to updating the timetable once the date of the UK Government’s autumn budget is known. We also appreciate the Minister’s willingness to engage with us at a pre-budget stage and look forward to such sessions happening early in the autumn term.

Cadeirydd, I'd like to first talk about the challenges identified. It comes as no surprise to Members when I say that those we spoke to are all facing significant challenges, including inflationary pressures; the cost-of-living crisis; the climate emergency; and COVID recovery, or as a stakeholder told me in Llanhilleth, we are in the midst of a 'perfect storm'. In Llanhilleth, people from front-line services told us that it was costing more to do the same and that many individuals and organisations do not know how to handle rising costs. Stakeholders also told us that the sustainability and affordability of public services is becoming increasingly challenging, but are also increasingly crucial to reducing health inequalities. The Youth Parliament Members we spoke to are also extremely concerned about the cost-of-living crisis, particularly for the most vulnerable in society, and the impact that the widening gap between rich and poor is having on our society.

Turning to specific priorities, the Youth Parliament Members identified health, social services, services for young people, and measures to mitigate the cost-of-living crisis as priorities for next year's budget. Similar themes emerged from discussions in Llanhilleth, which focused on tackling poverty and addressing the cost-of-living crisis; the long-term sustainability of public services; creating a greener Wales; improving services for children and young people; and the impact of increases in transport costs across different sectors. In the citizens focus groups, education and children and young people were prioritised most frequently by participants, followed closely by health and social care.

From those discussions, we can distil these issues into six key priority areas. Firstly, we need to make every effort to get support to those who need it most as quickly as possible. Those in poverty need targeted assistance, and these sadly now include people who work incredibly hard to support vulnerable people in our society, like unpaid carers and child minders. People told us that it wasn't right that those who were doing the caring weren't being cared for themselves, and we desperately need a strategy to make sure that we look after those most at risk.

Secondly, better workforce planning. We were told that there has been a generation of under-investment in training and the public sector workforce and that a cohesive workforce strategy is needed to ensure a resilient public service in Wales and to avoid burn-out and high sickness levels amongst public sector workers.

Thirdly, investment in youth infrastructure. The Welsh Government can and should do more to support young people by providing assistance to avoid the closures of youth centres and provide free transport to improve training, working and social prospects.

Fourthly, increasing capital funding. Those on the front line told us that there is a chronic need to invest in school and hospital buildings and basic infrastructure within public services. 

Next, we would like to see a better use of data to develop more effective and joined-up public services. Higher costs mean that we need to make the most of what we have in order to make our public services more sustainable and affordable. The Welsh Government needs to make the most of the data available, so that services can be planned efficiently. Increasing digital literacy in poorer communities could also act as way of ensuring that services and support are provided locally, where the need is greatest.

Finally, stable green funding. On climate change, the Welsh Government needs to put their money where their mouth is and provide dedicated funding to achieve its net-zero targets.

As we all know, it is very easy to come up with spending wish lists, but far more difficult to identify areas where spending could be scaled back. As a result, we were also keen to hear from participants on this issue. The Youth Parliament Members we spoke to recognised that, whilst it is very difficult to retract funding from areas, difficult decisions need to be made by the Welsh Government in order to prioritise areas of real need. For example, participants noted investment in the Welsh language and international relations, but felt that funding for these areas should not be prioritised above delivering services relating to the public's health and well-being.

We heard interesting views on taxes. Notably, not all Youth Parliament Members were aware that the Welsh Government is responsible for raising some of the money it spends. During the focus groups, most participants were against increasing income tax for those who are already struggling financially and felt that any increase in taxes should be directed at those with higher incomes or large businesses. Whilst a similar view was shared during our stakeholder event, it was noted that further taxation on large businesses could lead to businesses moving outside of Wales. I know that this is an area of particular interest to the Minister, and I'd urge her to look into ways in which awareness of our tax-raising powers in Wales can be improved.

So, as I move this motion in my name on behalf of the committee, I look forward to Members taking this opportunity to outline to the Minister and the Finance Committee what the priorities should be for the financial year ahead. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I'm also pleased to see Members of the Youth Parliament here. You're always welcome. Now, we have many speakers to this item—more than we could usually allow in an hour debate, but let's try and get everyone in. So, please aim for four minutes rather than five, and we'll see how things go. Jayne Bryant.

I'll begin by reiterating the calls of the Chair of the Finance Committee for proper time for Senedd committees to consider and report on the 2023-24 draft budget. I do very much appreciate the impact on the Welsh Government of events beyond its control, such as the timing of the UK Government's autumn budget, and welcome the Minister's engagement with the Finance Committee about this year's timetable. I urge the Minister to do what she can to give the Senedd time to do justice to its scrutiny of the 2023-24 draft budget.

I'd now like to raise some important cross-policy issues that I believe are relevant to all committees and indeed all Members. The first is about understanding the impact of the budget on different groups of people. I welcome the Minister's statement of 5 July on gender budgeting and the contribution of Members from across the Siambr to that debate. I agree with the Minister that gender budgeting provides a valuable lens through which we can view the impact of spending decisions on women and on girls, and I hope that the Welsh Government is able to learn from that experience of other countries and use that learning to accelerate the time it takes to embed gender budgeting here in Wales.

Of course, we as a committee are concerned about the impact of the budget on children and young people. On 8 February, I expressed to Members our concern that this Government did not publish any child rights impact assessments to show how children's rights shaped the 2022-23 draft budget allocation for children and young people. In fact, it didn't mention children's rights once in the entire strategic integrated impact assessment. So, could the Minister confirm whether she's listened to our concerns and perhaps outline that children's rights have shaped Welsh Government decisions about the 2023-24 spending priorities?

The second cross-policy issue that I would like to raise today is the so-called revised baseline. The revised baseline is a set of figures that the Welsh Government uses to compare next year's draft budget with last year's expenditure. I'm sure we're not the only committee that struggles to understand where the revised baseline figures come from. They're not the previous year's draft budget, and they're not the previous year's supplementary budget, either. But let me be clear: I do support the Welsh Government's stated intention to enable more suitable comparisons between financial years, but if committees are struggling to understand how the revised baseline is calculated, that means it isn't clear enough. It needs to be calculated transparently and consistently. Committees need to know where the funding is going up, where it's going down, where it's being cut altogether, who will be affected and why. Given the substantial overlap across committees' remits, the approach to calculating the baseline must be consistent across ministerial portfolios too. And I'd warmly welcome working jointly with other committees to ensure that the Welsh Government retains a sharp focus on these critical cross-policy issues.

I'll now highlight two priorities for the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Our work to date has repeatedly raised concerns about the mental health of children and young people. We're concerned about mental health because of the impact of COVID. We're concerned in the light of the impact of widespread peer-on-peer sexual harassment on mental health—our report that was published this morning. We're concerned about what we've heard during our inquiry on pupil absence about the links between mental health and school attendance, and I have no doubt that concerns will be raised by students and others as we embark on our next inquiry into mental health support in higher education this autumn. I know the Government's commitment to this agenda, and I urge the Government to commit funding to deal with this critically important issue, with families, in schools, in hospitals, in universities, alongside third sector partners and elsewhere.

We've also recently launched our Senedd-long inquiry into the implementation of the additional learning needs reforms and the new Curriculum for Wales. We've heard throughout our work to date about the importance of supporting school staff to implement those reforms effectively. This means giving local authorities enough funding to provide for schools' core budgets. It also means working with local government to encourage them to actually spend this money on schools. On top of that, it will require targeted funding from the education budget to support specific priorities too. We urge the Welsh Government to ensure that these ambitious reforms have the financial backing that they need to succeed. They're too important to the lives of children and young people not to. Diolch.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to today's debate as a member of the Finance Committee, and I support the comments made by our Chair of the committee, and also welcome our Members of the Youth Parliament here today. Over the past few years we have experienced a series of huge challenges, from the pandemic to the current inflationary pressures and, of course, cost-of-living crisis. It's more important than ever, therefore, that we listen to the views of the people of Wales and that Welsh Government makes the people's priorities their priorities.

It was clear from discussions that tackling the cost-of-living crisis and supporting families through these difficult times is a major issue that the budget must address with urgency. A number of stakeholders welcomed the existing Welsh Government schemes to help with the cost-of-living crisis, but they felt that this support was not reaching certain sectors, particularly unpaid carers. There was also an acknowledgement that there is a need to expand discretionary funds, particularly so that people who earn more than the various benefits thresholds but find themselves in a financially vulnerable position can access much-needed support.

In relation to the cost of living and inflationary pressures, a wide range of concerns were raised about the future sustainability of public services. For example, a stakeholder commented that there, and I quote, are

'likely to be unpalatable choices ahead' for the Welsh Government and service providers. There are real concerns that a squeeze in budgets will impact on service provision, and that the continuing impacts of the pandemic coupled with staff shortages will place more strain on already stretched services.

Local authorities are also facing a myriad of pressures and funding needs that quite simply must be addressed if we are to begin to tackle the issues facing us. So, as part of the budget there is a real need for an ambitious, fully costed plan to recruit more staff in things like schools, social care and the Welsh NHS to increase the resilience of services and to address the structural issues. There also must be a longer term funding strategy for our key public services. 

A final issue that I'd like to raise, Deputy Llywydd, is that of education, as we heard from some Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament about their concerns about catching up with lost education as a consequence of the disruption over recent years, whilst other stakeholders noted that the cost of school transport has increased exponentially. Thus it's important that that Government continues to invest in education, particularly to support the successful roll-out of the new curriculum. Furthermore, there have been calls for the Government to further harness the potential of increased research and innovation to strengthen the Welsh economy and to boost skills. In light of this, will the Minister commit to supporting the FE and HE sectors as much as possible and invest in their skills base?

To conclude, acting Llywydd, I in no way underestimate the scale of the challenge facing Ministers. The events of the past few years have taken their toll on our communities and they need our support. And, of course, the Government does not operate on its own. We must see, as we did during the pandemic, support from the UK Government that matches the scale of the issues facing us. But it’s vital that the Welsh Government gets its upcoming budget right and listens to the views of communities when it’s deciding its spending priorities. Thank you.

Thank you for being succinct. Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, acting Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to the committee chair for giving us an opportunity to discuss this issue. I also want to thank the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government because it will hopefully ensure that we can look forward to an exciting and transformational programme in the next financial year.

The first obvious thing I would ask for is to ensure that the expenditure in 2023-24 responds to the commitments of that co-operation agreement to make sure that the policies that will, of course, improve the lives of the people of Wales are given the financial support to succeed and to flourish in order to ensure, as the Government reminds us, that we are delivering a fairer, greener and stronger Wales. But I would say that, as a result of the co-operation agreement, Wales will be even fairer, even greener and even stronger. So, that's it—that's the first point I wanted to make.

The Government, of course, tells us that the focus is on using or moving towards preventative methods of governance, and that's something that we support, but in order to deliver that effectively, you do have to go through that transition period of investing in preventative areas on the one hand, whilst, of course, we are still paying to deal with the outcomes of not having invested in that sufficiently in the past. That transition is going to create tensions and pressures when it comes to budgeting. But the budget has to follow the intention. Although redirecting funds and focus is difficult, we all know that that would ultimately pay off. So, I do hope that we will see further progress, and significant progress in that transition, in terms of the focus of expenditure in the coming financial year. Some of my fellow Members on these benches will outline some of the specific issues that we want to highlight in this debate, but I will just touch on a few in the time that I have remaining this afternoon.

We, of course, are eager to see better pay and conditions for staff in the public sector—something I know that many of us share across the Chamber. And despite a Conservative Government not addressing this issue, which of course means that many workers here face pay cuts in real terms and that it makes it more difficult for them to make ends meet, the reality facing us now is a summer of discontent, possible strikes and so on. I would, therefore, be keen to hear from the Minister what her intentions are in terms of planning for salary increases in the public sector in next year's budget. Some would argue that, if we could move more quickly, we'd be eager to do so this year. But whilst looking at the focus of the debate, I think, certainly, there is now an opportunity to tackle this and show clear intent for the next year. 

Another obvious thing is the broader response to the cost-of-living crisis. We know that we need to safeguard homes from debts and increasing costs. Inflation, as it is, will continue to increase; the staggering cost of energy. We already know that 71 per cent of the people of Wales say that they have deliberately reduced the quality of the food that they buy in order to respond to this crisis. And that makes the process of preventative governance even more difficult, because we are moving in the wrong direction before we've even begun. We've mentioned the cap on energy prices. Now, I think in the next budget, we need to look at expanding the qualification for the winter fuel payment so that more vulnerable people do qualify, such as those eligible for pension credits. 

Just to conclude, so that I keep this brief at the request of the temporary Presiding Officer, I'll refer to the point made about the timetable of the budget in terms of scrutiny in the Senedd here. It is something that we face on an annual basis. I think this is the fourth year where scrutiny has been restricted in one way or another because of our reliance on the timetables of fiscal events in Westminster. I do think that it's fair now to look at the protocol again, because whilst exceptional circumstances in Westminster are one thing, I would argue that following the protocol in Wales is an exceptional circumstance because it never happens. I think that it's timely that we should look at that anew. Thank you. 

Wonderful. Thank you. Mike Hedges. 

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. The priorities in every budget are the same: to improve health, support local government, improve the environment and reduce carbon emissions, improve educational attainment, improve the economy and improve the quality of life for people in Wales and reduce or preferably end poverty. Well, we have all these debates as we all have different ways as to how we want to achieve it. 

Within health, I'm calling for the prioritisation of health improvement and primary care. Primary care is the point of contact for all non-A&E entry into the health service, and a better resourced and funded primary care sector would reduce the need for hospital care. As we've seen, year on year, when the health boards get the money, primary care and GP practices get a smaller and smaller proportion of the cake. We know that the following improves health: wash your hands often, and we saw during COVID that this led to a huge reduction in gastric problems; sleep for seven to nine hours every night; maintain good posture; eat a healthy, balanced diet; drink plenty of fluids; be more active; minimise stress levels; and reduce pollution. 

The health effects of obesity, which is probably the biggest problem that we're facing at the moment and one that we look away from when we should be looking at it, are: high blood pressure, additional fat tissue in the body that needs oxygen and nutrients in order to live; diabetes—obesity is a major cause of type 2 diabetes, which is a major cost to the health service and we could be doing something to try to reduce that expenditure, and it's not about not treating people with type 2 diabetes, it's getting fewer people to have type 2 diabetes; heart disease—hardening of the arteries is present 10 times more often in obese people, and whereas we've seen a continued reduction in smoking, unfortunately, obesity is going in the opposite direction. Obesity is now the second biggest cause of cancer and, I would guess, when we get the next list out of major causes of cancer, it'll take over as No. 1. I think we really have got to treat obesity as the most important thing that we are facing. 

The Welsh Government needs to promote a healthy lifestyle and thus reduce the number of people will health conditions. Is it any surprise that people with a poor diet living in cold, damp conditions are more prone to ill health? The Attlee Government, which I often speak highly of, from 1945 to 1951, realised the link between housing and health, but unfortunately this has not been followed by any subsequent Government. We need to build high-quality council houses across Wales to improve people's lives and health. Is it any surprise that people living in cold, damp conditions that are very expensive to heat are themselves more and more likely to suffer ill health and become a cost to the health service, whereas if they lived in a decent place of accommodation and they were well fed and well looked after, they wouldn't?

Improving the environment and providing green spaces and better air quality improves health and also improves the life of those who are living in the area. We need to take action now. Can I give a non-budget suggestion? It is that local development plans designate all land in a council area, including areas of tree planting, agriculture and land to promote biodiversity—that it actually designates every inch on the map, rather than saying, 'This is for housing, this is for developing businesses', saying, 'This is here. We think you can grow trees here, we think you can have agriculture here, we think that this has to be protected', not because it's in a green wedge, not because it's an area of outstanding natural beauty or any other reasons we have, a site of special scientific interest, or any of the other reasons we have, but because we think this is important for the environment, without having to go through any stages of designating anything else. 

Successful areas, including the UK, have high-quality universities, a steady supply of new graduates, a critical mass of technology companies and research and development taking place, with large numbers of start-up companies. Can the Welsh Government's economic policy target things like life sciences, ICT and financial services? As I regularly say, we need more Admiral insurance and fewer LGs. As I've said previously, and as Plaid Cymru—in fact, yourself, acting Presiding Officer—raised yesterday, too many Welsh graduates do not stay in Wales due to a lack of opportunity, not a lack of will to stay in Wales, but a lack of opportunities to find employment here. Creating a highly educated workforce is the best economic driver we have.

Things that can be done include: use universities as drivers of growth; development of science parks; universities' schools of entrepreneurship open to everyone; build a food processing industry as Arla have achieved in Denmark; get the added value from food processing, not just the value of the agricultural products; understand the importance of services provided by local government. Local government services are important to people, from parks to social services to road maintenance to education. These services are essential to the well-being of local people. 

There are areas that we can cut back on, and I would say that we need to look at some of the money we spend on economic development that achieves neither of those words.  

Thank you for the opportunity to participate. One of the things that I thought was very interesting—and this has already been referred to—was the view of young people and the Welsh Youth Parliament. I think this is endorsed by the things that have been shared with me as a Member for South Wales Central in terms of the cost of public transport. Ruben Kelman has written to many of us, being very proactive as a Member of the Youth Parliament, but has shared the fact that the cost of public transport, for those who don't qualify for free travel to school, does mean that this has an impact on attendance.

Jayne mentioned this in terms of all the things we need to support young people, and I think it is very important that we do see, in terms of all of the comments that were made, that the increasing cost of public transport is something that we do need to be conscious of. With the cost-of-living crisis, the fact that we are now receiving evidence that young people can't go to school because of the cost of public transport is something that I would ask the Government to look at as a matter of urgency, because I do think that if they're not in school, they're not going to benefit from the wealth of experiences they'd get there, and this is a fundamental right for our young people. 

Also, there was reference in terms of the summer programmes for young people, which are so important. Very often, the barrier for those from families facing the cost-of-living crisis is the cost of public transport to access these events. So, clearly, we're pleased to see that the Government is making that investment in these summer programmes, such as the Summer of Fun and so on, but if the most vulnerable people can't attend them and get there, then how can everyone take advantage of them? So, as you look at next year's budget, could we look at something to support public transport specifically in terms of children and young people, so that they can benefit from all of the things that we are investing in? I think that would be of great assistance. Thank you. 

I welcome this opportunity to speak in this Finance Committee debate on the Welsh Government’s spending priorities for 2023-24, and drawing on the committee’s experience of its first ever budget scrutiny on the 2022-23 draft budget. The reason I'm speaking is very focused on the issue of justice, but I would say just in passing that it's great to hear the contributions already in terms of the way that young people and children have influenced and shaped, with their voices being heard within this Chamber already.

We decided as a committee, particularly with the addition of justice to our remit, that this was going to be a regular feature of our work programme. So, we do look forward in line with that to be contributing to the scrutiny of future Welsh Government budgets. On the matter of justice, we took great interest in the Welsh Government’s proposals for spending in this area during our scrutiny of the draft budget for 2022-23. We have also, of course, more recently seen the Welsh Government publish its work programme, 'Delivering Justice for Wales', which includes its plans across a great breadth of areas, including criminal justice, family justice, access to justice, the legal sector and civil and administrative justice. So, we are looking forward to seeing how this programme progresses, and, indeed, the Welsh Government has now committed on a number of occasions to regularly report on its progress to our committee and to the Senedd.

This is an area of real interest to our stakeholders as well, as we found when we engaged with legal practitioners and litigants in person earlier this year on the question of access to justice. Some participants in that engagement activity were keen to acknowledge the investment that has been made by the Welsh Government in things such as social welfare advice, following the implementation of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, but they said that further support was going to be needed to meet the demand that is out there.

So, to help us and our stakeholders and this Senedd, indeed, understand how much of the Welsh Government's budget goes towards spending on justice and where that spending goes, we have called for that spending to be disaggregated in the future. And we thank the Counsel General for telling us that the Welsh Government will now indeed explore the ways that it can improve the level of information it provides about justice expenditure, so we look forward to seeing the outcome of that. I don't know whether it's too early at this stage for the Minister to actually give us any update. I suspect it's ongoing. But thank you to the Chair of the Finance Committee for organising this important debate today, and we look forward to working with you and other Senedd committees as we scrutinise the Welsh Government's spending proposals this year and going ahead.

Alun Davies.

I'm grateful to you, acting Presiding Officer. I'm grateful also to the Finance Committee, grateful to you for you coming to Llanhilleth, of course, to conduct some of your work, but also for hosting this debate this afternoon, which I think is absolutely crucial in setting the terms of the debate that we'll have on the Welsh Government's budget over the coming months.

Unlike others, without wishing to be churlish, I don't share the committee's view on the difficulties the Welsh Government is facing in publishing a budget in the coming year, because I think we're facing, possibly, the most difficult financial challenges that we've faced since the crisis in 2008, and I think it's right and proper that the Government takes time to consider those challenges and publishes a draft budget when it's able to do so and is in a position to debate those matters with us. So, I don't criticise the Minister for delaying the budget at all at the moment.

But we have to understand that when we were debating this issues of finance and spending in 2008, we were only debating and discussing a spending budget. We are now debating a budget where we're also responsible for raising part of our own income, and that makes this debate absolutely fundamentally different to the one we had over a decade and a half ago, because since then what we've seen—. Through austerity, we've seen stagnation in growth, we've seen stagnation in GDP, we've seen stagnation in incomes. And not only have we seen stagnation in income, but we've seen changes to the distribution of income, where those people who are in the top decile of incomes available to them have seen greater increases than those who receive less, and as a consequence there is going to be less funding available, I believe, in the Welsh Government's budget, and more challenges facing people in Wales. So, how do we as a Parliament and how does a Government publish this information, and how do we address those challenges? I think addressing the challenges, both of our economy, of our communities and then of our people I think is the biggest challenge facing us. And rather than list spending requirements, I believe we need to have a richer debate, a bigger debate, about how we raise this money and how we raise the funds in order to deliver those spending programmes.

I'm seeing real challenges at the moment. We've heard a lot from the UK Government in recent years about levelling up. We now know that that is over. We've seen it in the last week. It was always a slogan and not a policy, but now we've seen it dumped in a race to the bottom in terms of tax cuts and spending requirements. I asked the Minister, if any one of the Tory candidates currently standing for the leadership of the Tory party is elected, how the income cuts from tax cuts will impact the Welsh budget, because if we're saying we need more money to address all these different priorities, and I agree with all of them, then how do you do that on a declining budget? How do you do it in a budget that's been declining because of the tax cuts promised by London, and, then, when you're unable to raise taxes because of the impact of the recession, of the cost of living, on our own tax base?

And how will we replace lost EU funds? I was speaking to the British Heart Foundation today about the impact of lost EU funds on Welsh research. Now, universities in Wales have traditionally relied, of course, upon the Horizon programme, but the incompetence and duplicity of the UK Government in dealing with the European Union means that we may well lose access to those programmes. So, how will we support universities in the future? And also, acting Presiding Officer, the impact of Brexit on our economy: we know that Brexit is having an impact on our ability to grow our economy. We know it's having an impact on companies and people, we know it's going to have an impact on our budget, what that impact will be, and I believe it's important that we understand these things. But it is also important that we understand the impact of inflation on services that have been delivered. What is the impact of inflation going to be on the NHS or on education? What is the impact of inflation going to be on local government budgets? Brexit has been a calamity for this country. It is an ongoing calamity and is at the root of many of the economic challenges we face. But we have to understand how the Welsh Government is facing up to these things. So, without wishing to test your patience, acting Presiding Officer, I would like the Welsh Government to publish more information—I think the Welsh Government's done very well, as it happens, over the last few years in publishing information to support its budget—but I would like to see more information published earlier to enable us to understand the challenges facing the Welsh Government and then to be able to come to political decisions on our priorities as a consequence of that understanding. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Jane Dodds.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. Thank you so much to the committee for their work in producing this report. As the Minister will know, I want to see a children and young people's budget. As chair of the cross-party group on children and families, I was particularly interested to read the views of the Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament. They've highlighted improving mental health services as a key priority of theirs for this term, and again, it was highlighted as a key priority for them when the committee engaged with them. Key stakeholders identified by the committee also called on the Welsh Government to implement a robust mental health plan across Welsh universities, thereby once again looking at the mental health needs of our young people. I would fully endorse this approach, but more needs to be done to help all children and young people with their mental health.

In April this year, 59 per cent of young people were waiting over four weeks for a child and adolescent mental health services appointment. Successive Governments, both UK and those devolved, have spoken of the importance of bringing about parity between mental and physical health, and yet, waiting lists remain shockingly high. So, I'd urge the Government, when thinking through their priorities for the next budget, to once and for all grapple with this truly serious issue.

As well as young people, I'd like to talk about teeth, once again coming back to dentists. We really have a lack of NHS dentists, not just in my region of Mid and West Wales, but across Wales and across the UK. It's an issue many of us have raised. The lack of dentists, particularly for our children and young people once again means that this is a real health issue going forward, and I'm sure many of us have had this in our inboxes over the last year. I've had constituents contact me from across the region complaining of waiting lists of years, rather than months, in order to be able to be treated by an NHS dentist. One constituent—and this is a little warning alert here—had been driven to fill in their own cavity with a take-home kit because they'd waited so long for an appointment. That is so sad and not acceptable. When I pressed on this issue, the answer just seems to be focused on how we might be able to recruit and retain more dentists, and whilst I do entirely agree, there simply hasn't been a material change for those desperately waiting for treatment. So, I'd like to press the Minister: when considering areas to increase funding in the upcoming budget, a clear commitment to the dental sector here in Wales would have a radical impact on the current waiting lists and on our children and young people's health.

Another issue that I think warrants immediate action from the Welsh Government is that of building fire safety. Let's think about what we're talking about here: individuals and families are living in blocks of flats that they know to be unsafe, who are still waiting for remediation works to start. I would urge the Government to put funds to use now in remediation works and in pursuing developers to contribute in fully righting their wrongs.

And finally, I do want to echo what my colleague Heledd Fychan talked about here. In January I raised the proposal of free public transport for under-25-year-olds. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change indicated his broad support for such a proposal, and suggested it needed further investigation. Since then, Germany has introduced a €9 monthly pass for unlimited travel on buses, trains, trams and subways. And the Spanish Government only today announced that all short to medium-distance train journeys will be free from September. So, therefore, we can do it here in Wales. Not only would this proposal help us march towards our net-zero proposal, but would also be key to addressing social isolation and exclusion.

So, finally, I would like to ask the Minister whether she would be willing to meet with me to look at a children and young people's budget going forward. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I will be speaking in my capacity as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee. Appropriate housing has long been a key concern for our committee, and we would like to urge Welsh Government to prioritise funding to ensure that as many as possible in Wales have a safe place to live, working towards everyone in Wales having a safe place to live.

When I spoke to you in the draft budget debate earlier this year, I emphasised the committee's concern at the high number of people living in temporary accommodation. It's crucial for people to be moved into long-term, permanent accommodation if homelessness is to be rare, brief and unrepeated, as Welsh Government has pledged in its strategy. Since that time, we've seen an increase in the number of people in temporary accommodation, including people from Ukraine, who have been placed temporarily into Welsh Government's welcome centres. We believe that securing long-term accommodation in safe surroundings should be a key priority. Local authorities and registered social landlords have a key role to play here. They face substantial pressures in securing suitable accommodation for those in need. We recognise Welsh Government's commitment to reforming homelessness services and to work with public services to provide appropriate housing. We therefore urge the Welsh Government to reflect that commitment in the draft budget by making adequate provision in next year's budget, and prioritising funds for those purposes. 

Another key area of concern to the committee is building safety and undertaking the remedial work needed to make buildings safe, and we would also like to see this prioritised in next year's budget. In fact, members of the committee met earlier today with representatives from the Welsh Cladiators group, who continue to raise their many concerns and emphasise their frustration at the rate and pace of progress being made. 

On the local government side, we welcomed the settlement for local authorities last year and hoped that it would enable them to undertake longer term planning, rather than simply reacting to immediate pressures. Since then, we've seen prices continue to rise across the board, which is clearly adding to the pressure on local services. We urge the Welsh Government to consider the impact of the cost-of-living crisis on local authorities, and provide a settlement that enables them to delivers services sustainably. Diolch yn fawr.

I appreciate that the contributions have been concise today. I hope we can get two or three more in, depending on how concise they are. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. I'll keep it short. I understand that the Government is being pulled in all different directions by Members on what they should be spending on, and there are a number of priorities to consider. I would like to make the case for increasing the payments of the education maintenance allowance. It was a massive relief to families when it was introduced back in 2004. It continues to be a massive relief for families, and I think, actually, it's a massive positive that the Welsh Government has managed to retain it for as long as they have. Currently a payment is worth £30 a week. It's been that since 2004, and the Bevan Foundation has rightly pointed out that in order for it to be of the same value as it was in 2004, the payment would need to increase to £45 a week. So, I would urge the Government to consider increasing EMA payments. 

As a member of the Finance Committee, I am pleased with the proactive approach also that the committee has taken to seek out the views of the Welsh people in helping shape the Welsh Government spending priority, a figure of almost £21 billion for the financial year 2023-24. I also want to make comment on the stoic work of the Chair, Peredur Owen Griffiths, and also fellow committee members. It is right and proper also that the committee does undertake meaningful citizen stakeholder engagement, and I'm proud of the work that's been undertaken and that we do engage proactively and purposely with Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament. So, thank you to all of those who participated and who will continue to engage. Minister, let us, though, not forget, and always remember, that the biggest consultation exercise with the Welsh people is always that conducted in democratic elections and the freedom of choice at the ballot box, and I'm mindful that the Welsh Labour Government was re-elected to commit to fulfilling those priorities of the Welsh public.

The current challenges, though, that we all face, are multitudinal and intense as we emerge from the COVID-19 pandemic and as we still wade our way through the non-oven-ready Brexit. Today, we are faced with a Tory cost-of-living crisis that is attacking every single household, with inflation raging at levels not seen in over four decades and projected to skyrocket further. This is seismic and catastrophic for a nation with no functioning welfare net. And though I don't have time to mention it now, it is right that gender budgeting will also be on the agenda for our Minister. It was clear from the feedback that, as a committee, we received, that the public do value—hugely value—our public services, and that they are concerned about the climate emergency that we face, and they do want to see a Welsh Government on their side. Only last week, whilst addressing the Senedd, the First Minister of Wales set out the Welsh Government's legislative plans for the year ahead, and I won't go into detail, but a Bill on single-use plastics, a clean air Bill, an agricultural Bill, a Bill on infrastructure consenting, a Bill on coal tip safety—so important to our communities. So, the Welsh Government is clearly demarking its strong desire to address the challenge of climate change and to support the environment.

Much attention has focused on the proposed Senedd reform Bill, but it is important not to overlook the bus Bill that will be brought forward to enable all levels of government in Wales to work together to design bus networks that truly interconnect and truly serve communities. This in itself will be transformational for those we all serve. Additionally, the Welsh Government is committed to introducing more fairness, as citizens face a flood—a torrent—of rising costs, with a Bill on local government finance in late 2023 to reform fundamentally the way citizens pay council tax in Wales.

And finally, within the current devolved framework of competencies, such legislation is imperative and I know that the Welsh Government—ethical government—will seek to prioritise the people's concerns, with policy made for the people to mitigate climate change and to tackle the truly horrendous impacts of the worst ever Tory cost-of-living crisis. But Wales and this place need, as part of the United Kingdom, to fundamentally redress the lack of finance to Wales and, to do this, we need a Labour United Kingdom Government, elected in a general election as soon as possible, both for the people and of the people. Thank you. Diolch.

And we did succeed in calling all speakers. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much. They have addressed the point I wanted to speak to. Thank you.

Could I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans?

Diolch. I'd just like to say thank you to everybody for their contributions this afternoon, but particularly so to the Finance Committee for bringing forward the debate today. I do think that this has been an absolutely excellent innovation in recent years, and it really does help focus the mind in terms of understanding what the priorities of colleagues are. So, thank you so much for everybody's contributions to the debate today. The Senedd will, of course, recall that we were able to publish a three-year budget settlement earlier this year, and that does provide at least a level of certainty and stability to our partners and to the people of Wales. But now we are facing very much a new set of challenges that we have to consider in our next budget and that, of course, includes continuing to respond to the ongoing impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Like many other countries, we're facing soaring inflation and that's impacting on our existing commitments. It's also causing our budget settlement to be worth £600 million less than when we allocated it in October 2021, and this will be very much at the forefront of our minds as we start to consider our budget for next year. And, of course, we are experiencing the ongoing cost-of-living crisis as well as the conflict in Ukraine, but our commitment as a Government to supporting communities and citizens as they navigate these issues remains completely unwavering.

Our fiscal position is very difficult. We face several uncertainties as a result of the ongoing events in Whitehall. We are yet to understand when the next UK Government fiscal event will be, and the UK Government hasn't, at this point, indicated that there will be any additional funding coming to Wales, and we absolutely cannot rely on any assumption that there will be additional funding. Indeed, our thinking has to include the prospect that we will a see a reduced settlement, and we need to prepare for that scenario for all the reasons that Alun Davies outlined in terms of the current UK Government and its potential candidates for Prime Minister's approaches to taxes, so that will be very much at the forefront of our minds as we start preparing over the summer.

I think also the Chair recognised how hard this is, and I'm glad that the Finance Committee engaged with communities and young people, asking that important question about where would we cut if we have to cut, or if we want to cut to invest in some other areas. So, it's interesting to find out what people's priorities are and their level of tolerance for cuts in particular areas. So, I'm grateful for that work and for the entire report on the part of the Finance Committee. It's been really, really really helpful, and I'm grateful for all the engagement that you've been doing.

So, I do want to respond to some of the specific points, but what I won't do is respond to the requests for additional funding in particular policy or spending areas, because I think that that's not the purpose of today; today is for me to hear from colleagues. But I do want to recognise and confirm that I've heard what people have been saying about the cost-of-living crisis, mental health, especially young people, youth infrastructure, unpaid carers, public services, including education and other local government services, the importance of investing in R&I to boost skills and the economy and all of the challenges around public sector pay and conditions. And then other contributions focused around health improvement and primary care, dentistry, and we also heard about the importance of investing in decarbonisation and climate change and green spaces and air quality. We also heard about public transport and concerns especially about ensuring that children and young people are able to access it. And justice was referenced, as was building safety and housing and homelessness more generally, and all of this with very much a strong focus on prevention. And of course the arguments were made in favour of the EMA as well. So, lots of food for thought, I think, there for us to consider as we start to prepare for the budget.

But, in terms of some of the process points that I think are the most useful things I can respond to today, in terms of the timing of the budget, I share the Finance Committee's concerns and disappointment at it, and I think the reason for some of the ways in which we've found ourselves, in the past few years, tabling the draft budget later than we would normally anticipate, is because, at the time of the budget protocol, the UK Government had its main fiscal event in the spring, but now we seem to be responding very much to significant autumn statements, and so I think that the point about looking at the protocol and having some discussions around that is an important discussion to have.

I also think that it's important to recognise the points made about raising awareness of our tax-raising powers. I think that the budget is a really important time to do that. We've done quite a lot in recent years to try and make tax and the budget more generally more accessible to people. So, we've got the ready reckoner on the Welsh Government's website, so people can put their information in and find out how much, relatively, the Welsh Government is spending of their contribution on the various areas for which we are responsible. We also have the Beaufort survey, which asks people about their awareness of Welsh rates of income tax, for example. We're seeing an increase, but it's too slow and we need to do more engagement work there. And we also make an effort to engage with children and young people through children and young people's leaflets, and also I engage with schools and economics students and others to try and have these conversations with children and young people.

I've heard the calls for a clearer narrative around several elements of the budget and also for more transparency. I'm always keen to publish as much as we can and to be as transparent as we possibly can. So, any specific requests for further information, or areas that we can improve, I'm keen to respond to. We do have our budget improvement plan, which is a rolling five-year plan in terms of improving the way we do our budget and the way we communicate it. So, I'm obviously happy to explore what we can add in that particular regard as well.

We do publish an awful lot of information, I have to say. We publish the chief economist's report, lots and lots of data around tax, we've got our distributional impact analysis, our new approach to carbon impacts—so, lots of information is available, but, if there's more needed, I'm keen to be providing that as well. We also provide important information through the year. Reference was made to the Welsh rates of income tax and the outturn data. So, the outturn data for last year will be available this month, and I'll be publishing it alongside a written statement. This is important, because this is the first time that this data has an impact on next year's budget in real life, so I think that that will help us again in terms of thinking ahead to our budget for next year.

Overall, Chair, I'll just finish, really, by just confirming that we do remain a Government committed to a fairer, greener and more prosperous Wales. Our upcoming budget and our preparations for it will keep these values very much at the core. The challenges that we face are clearly very difficult, and we have significant pressures on our budgets, but we must have these values and our vision there to guide us. Just to close, I absolutely welcome today's debate, it's been really instructive, and I look forward to continuing engagement with colleagues across the Senedd in the coming months. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank Members who have contributed to today’s debate. This has been a golden opportunity for the Senedd to influence the Welsh Government’s thinking before it publishes the draft budget later this year. I hope the Minister will take onboard the views raised today.

Thank you to all Members and committee Chairs for their input into the debate, and the Minister's response. It was clear that the cost-of-living crisis comes through as a major priority, with many Members referencing it. We heard from many contributors today, and I'm not going to rehearse the arguments and the comments we heard, but the broad areas were mental health, education, paid and unpaid carers, pay and conditions for public sector workers, infrastructure and capital spend, public transport, access to justice, raising revenue, health and social care and housing. The questions raised are many, and the answers are not easy. I hope this debate will help to crystallise some of that for the Minister. We've also heard the Minister's commitment to engage, and I certainly welcome that.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this debate, these issues are not a surprise to Members. They are significant, challenging and complex, but what we did hear from the people of Wales was the need and a willingness to act to do something about the difficulties they are facing. What the people we spoke to need more than anything now is for the Welsh Government to listen to their concerns and to focus its resources appropriately. This will allow us to make the best use  of what we have. This will allow us to have services that are sustainable. This will also allow us to address the concerns and the priorities of the Welsh public.

We will continue to raise these issues with the Minister in committee once the draft budget is laid before this Senedd later this year, and I hope that other committees will do the same within their own subject areas.

I'd like to thank those that are the main drivers of today’s debate: our stakeholders and the people that we spoke with. They are central to our work, and we're grateful for their continued engagement. Finally, I'd like to thank the clerking team and the research team who work very hard in the background to facilitate the committee's work and allow us to scrutinise effectively the Government. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I hear no objection. And therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.