2. What discussions has the Deputy Minister held with local stakeholders and union representatives on the protection of workers’ rights following the recent announcement regarding the outsourcing of services at Plas Menai National Outdoor Centre? TQ660

I thank Heledd Fychan for that question. I have held discussions on workers' rights with officials of the recognised union at Plas Menai, with Sport Wales, and with Siân Gwenllian, the constituency Senedd Member for the local area. Yesterday's announcement by Sport Wales confirms that Parkwood must safeguard staff employment terms and conditions, and I'm reassured that Sport Wales has followed a thorough engagement process with the staff and the union.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Having been brought up on Anglesey, I'm very aware of the importance of Plas Menai as a resource and a local employer, and it was good to visit Plas Menai just a few months ago as a member of the culture and sport committee. During the visit, we expressed concerns about the possibility of outsourcing services, and I must say that none of those concerns have been alleviated today or yesterday. I have to say that I'm very surprised at the support of the Government for outsourcing by a body sponsored by the Welsh Government that also has responsibility under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. How does this change conform with those principles? Further, there was no reference yesterday in your statement to the Welsh language and the importance of Plas Menai in terms of good jobs for Welsh speakers in the area, and also in providing training and courses bilingually. What assurance can you give in terms of this element? There's no experience, from what I can see, from those who've been handed the contract of prioritising bilingual activities. Recognising that there are a number of further concerns, it would also be good to know what parameters were set out in your statement between Sport Wales and its new strategic partner.

You'll be aware from the written statement I issued yesterday that Sport Wales announced the conclusion to its process to identify what they term as a strategic partner for the future management of Plas Menai in Gwynedd, and I think it's important to say that. We are talking about the management of the centre, we're talking about a specification there, a contract with Parkwood Leisure that is aimed at securing, safeguarding and expanding the future of Plas Menai. As you'll know, Plas Menai has had some difficulties over a number of years, and there have been a number of different options that have been presented to how we could safeguard and move that forward. Parkwood Leisure will bring vast experience, expertise and a track record in the area of outdoor activities in this partnership with Sport Wales, which does not currently exist at the site. So, we are looking at a partnership that will utilise and tap into the experience and expertise that we do have with a partner that will have the expertise that the centre does not have.

In terms of the specification and the contract, we have been very clear that the well-being of future generations Act has to be complied with, and that is written into the contract, as is a requirement for Parkwood Leisure to comply with the Sport Wales strategy and to be aligned with the Welsh Government's programme for government, along with the well-being of future generations Act. As you know, one of the seven ways of working includes the commitment and the development of the Welsh language. Parkwood Leisure have absolutely committed to all of that. In terms of the conditions of the employment for the people who work there, which was a primary consideration that I had, and I know that Sport Wales had, they have written into the contract a guarantee that terms and conditions for the employees at Plas Menai will be guaranteed, including their pension rights, for the entire period of the contract. They have also agreed within the terms of the contract that there will be no two-tier workforce, so that any new staff that are brought in after the commencement of the contract would also be employed on the existing terms and conditions that are currently enjoyed by the staff at Plas Menai.

I've had detailed discussions with the local, recognised unions at Sport Wales. It is a matter, of course, for Sport Wales, as an arm's-length body, to negotiate the fine detail of this and how it will affect their employees, but there is a recognition that this is the best way forward for the development and the future survival and growth, which is important, of Plas Menai. It is a contract that will seek to develop that centre into an all-year-round facility, which it currently isn't. And I'm satisfied that, with the monitoring processes that are going to be in place to monitor the performance of that contract, we will deliver, with ongoing capital investment from Welsh Government to develop the site, the management contract—because that's what it is; it will still be owned by Sport Wales and it's still owned by Welsh Government, so it's still a public sector facility. 

When I visited Plas Menai with the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee with Heledd, I was struck by what a great facility it is, in a stunning setting, but also what further potential it could have to incorporate more activities as well. The offer did seem a little limited compared to other outdoor activity centres. I was concerned about the outsourcing of the facility to a private enterprise for profit, but hear that Parkwood Leisure will run it as a not-for-profit business; that staff will have their terms and conditions protected, as you've just said, which I understand was a concern of the unions and would be a concern of mine; that they would be complying to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, as you've just said, which gives regard to the Welsh language; and that they will continue to employ local people, hopefully creating more all-year-round jobs going forward.

I'm aware that many public services have had to move to different operating models during years of austerity, and Parkwood Leisure already have experience of managing some of these. Please could the Minister confirm this, and what success have they had with those? Thank you.

Can I thank Carolyn Thomas for that question? She's quite right that in these times of austerity and different approaches to how we can make businesses and facilities successful, we have to look at different models. And, if we were living in an ideal world, we probably wouldn't be looking at this type of model, but we're not, and so we are, because what we're looking to do is to ensure the future and the growth of that facility. You are quite right to say that this is not privatisation—the point I was trying to make to Heledd Fychan; Parkwood is a commissioned partner, and the assets remain within the ownership of Sport Wales. I talked about the ongoing capital investment that Sport Wales will continue to make into Plas Menai. The Parkwood contract would be via their charitable arm, Legacy Leisure, and that absolutely is a not-for-profit basis, and the contract is based on a not-for-profit basis. 

First of all, can I say I chair the PCS cross-party group in the Senedd? Can I also say that I'm politically opposed to the outsourcing of services by the Welsh Government—absolutely, unequivocally opposed to it? Not-for-profit's a really interesting thing, because lots of places are not-for-profit; it's easy to get around it, of course, because you pay consultancy fees, you pay support fees, you pay the price that that company wants to charge for services, so, actually, the profit isn't made on the contract, it's made outside the contract. I'm sure that we have a situation where people's conditions will be protected from day 1, and I'm sure that also we will have an organisation saying, 'We need to make some changes to make us more efficient.' My experience of privatisation in any of its forms is that the workers pay the price by changes to their terms and conditions. If the current management and board are unable to run Plas Menai outdoor centre effectively, surely the most effective action would be to replace the board and senior management with people who can. Why does the Minister believe that that outsourcing will provide a better service, and why do you believe that the private sector can do it better than the public sector?

Well, first of all, thank you for that question, Mike. First of all, I don't think that the private sector can do things better than the public sector. What we are faced with and what we were dealing with was an organisation that has tried several different options to deliver success for Plas Menai, including bringing in their own managers, bringing in marketing staff, and bringing in other ways of working that have not delivered those changes. What they have not been able to do is to bring in the kind of expertise in the development of the facility within the cost envelope that they have. You're absolutely right that what Parkwood Leisure will do as part of the contract is that they will be paid a management fee for running the management of that service. So, the service is not being outsourced, but the management of it is. The service remains part of Sport Wales, and I can't reiterate that enough; it remains part of Sport Wales. It remains a public sector body and a public sector provision. But the profit that will come to the organisation would be through their management fee, which, incidentally, will be considerably less than the current running costs of Plas Menai—some 32 per cent less than the running costs of Plas Menai.

Now, if Parkwood are unable to make money on that basis, that is their problem. That is what they have contracted for. That is what they have said that they can run the management of that organisation on, and that they can develop that organisation based on that level of management fee. Also written into the contract, and I think it is an important point that you make, Mike—. I spent many years, as you well know, as a trade union official, and I know only too well what happens with Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations contracts and that TUPE contracts are only as valuable as the paper they're written on on day 1. However, the difference here is that this is not a normal TUPE contract whereby the new employer takes over on day 1 and can then issue notice to change the terms and conditions. The terms and conditions of employees in Plas Menai are guaranteed for the lifetime of the contract. Any changes to staffing that might be required in Plas Menai will not be the decision of Parkwood Leisure, they will be the decision of Sport Wales. So, it is quite clear that this is a very different type of arrangement. This is a commissioned partnership arrangement whereby nothing happens in that organisation without the agreement of Sport Wales as the partner, with the commissioned partner, Parkwood Leisure.

I thank the Deputy Minister.