The next item is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport on world heritage in north-west Wales. And I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement. Dawn Bowden.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Last year, Senedd Members joined with communities across north-west Wales to celebrate the inscription of tirwedd llechi gogledd-orllewin Cymru, the slate landscape of north-west Wales, on the UNESCO world heritage site list. The Welsh Government successfully delivered our programme for government commitment to support the inscription of the slate landscape world heritage site. It was a moment of celebration that marked the culmination of many years of hard work by a partnership led by Gwynedd Council, with support from Snowdonia National Park Authority and Welsh Government.

That partnership is notable for its range. It includes Cadw, the National Trust, as well as two heritage bodies sponsored by Welsh Government—that's Amgueddfa Cymru and the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments—alongside representatives from industry and the private sector, including quarry owners, tourism operators and, of course, local community groups.

Inscription is an achievement that marks the start of a new challenge: to manage and care for the world heritage site on behalf of future generations. So, one year on is a good time to reflect on what has been achieved and what world heritage means for Wales. 

It's 50 years since UNESCO established the world heritage site convention, which recognises that some heritage has such importance that it transcends national boundaries to speak to all humanity. These buildings, monuments and landscapes say something fundamental about us, about where we come from and the world that we inhabit. The convention has been ratified by over 190 nations, includes more than 1,000 sites and is recognised by millions of people. The protection, conservation and preservation of our world heritage sites, and their transmission to future generations, is an important duty for society today.

We're proud to have responsibility for four world heritage sites in Wales, with two in the north-west: the slate landscape and the castles of Edward I. Three of those sites recognise our pivotal role in the industrial revolution, a time when our country experienced an unprecedented period of transformation and our iron, steel and slate, as well as mining and engineering expertise, contributed to the building of cities and towns across the globe.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Today, world heritage plays an important role in our tourism economy, drawing thousands of visitors here each year. But we should not overlook its wider benefits; in particular, community pride, well-being and a sense of place.

The slate landscape nomination was notable for its community involvement. The Heritage Lottery-funded LleCHI project supported young people from the region to play a leading role investigating and interpreting their heritage and participating in the formal inscription assessment. That involvement bodes well for the future.

So, what has happened since inscription? Well, firstly, the partnership management plan is being implemented. The two local planning authorities have adopted supplementary planning guidance and published community style guides in Welsh and English to assist residents, developers and the construction industry to play their parts in the sustainable management of historic properties within the site.

Partners continue to play an active role. Cadw’s designation work is nearly complete, and its focus has now turned to conservation. Cadw grants are supporting work at the engine house in the Dorothea quarry, while last year the National Lottery Heritage Fund announced a £3.1 million grant for the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways, one of the core partners in the site, to restore its buildings at Boston Lodge.

An important responsibility for world heritage managers is to transmit the values of the sites through education and interpretation, and here also good progress has been made. A Welsh Government grant of £150,000 has funded unified signage and interpretation across the world heritage site. Work is also progressing on developing a comprehensive community engagement, interpretation and visitor management plan, supported by £128,000 development funding from the National Lottery. Alongside this, Amgueddfa Cymru is developing proposals for the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum, with the museum of north Wales forming part of this.

I started by reminding us that there are two world heritage sites in north-west Wales. The castles and town walls of King Edward in Gwynedd were the first world heritage site to be inscribed in Wales and are an interesting illustration of the broader objectives of world heritage, which are not, as some people think, simply to celebrate heritage, but rather to recognise sites of historic importance and to provide opportunities to learn from them.

The four castles that make up the world heritage site have complex histories that raise important questions about events that shaped our nation. These were originally English castles, built by Edward I to control people reeling from the loss of their prince, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, and inevitably raise a lot of powerful emotions. That medieval annexation has resonated for centuries and it's important that our management and presentation of these castles, in particular of Caernarfon castle, recognise all aspects of that history and what it means for people today.

Later this month, I will be visiting Caernarfon to open the new King’s gatehouse project that Cadw has delivered. This is a £5 million investment that will enable visitors to experience rooms within the castle that have been inaccessible for centuries and to access the top floor of the gatehouse by lift. For the first time, there will be access for all visitors to the medieval hall on the uppermost level, which was designed, but never completed. Accompanying this is new interpretation that reflects honestly the challenging history of the castle, using a combination of narrative and sculpture to help visitors consider its role in the past and today. While meeting our obligation to conserve our world heritage, this investment will also make a vital contribution to the region’s economy.

I end by taking this opportunity to thank all organisations, individuals and communities who manage our world heritage sites on behalf of us all. It is through their efforts that we fulfil our obligations under the convention to care for these sites on behalf of future generations, both here in Wales and across the world. 

May I thank the Deputy Minister for her statement? We all know of the importance and historic nature of our heritage sites across north-west Wales. Of the four world heritage sites in Wales, two of them are in north-west Wales, and I and my party are proud of the rich cultural history of Wales.

The two world heritage sites located in north-west Wales, as you said, are the slate landscape of north-west Wales and the castles and town walls of Edward I. Visitors and local people who come to the area can visit the National Slate Museum, which celebrated its fiftieth anniversary back in May, at the Dinorwig quarry, to learn of its unbeatable history, while the Ffestiniog railway takes people along the 200-year-old rail line.

I welcome the £150,000 to provide unified signage and interpretation across the world heritage site, but can the Deputy Minister outline how the £128,000 from the National Lottery for engagement and the visitor management programme is being implemented? How will this be measured, and is there a target here in terms of visitor levels to the area? Given the site’s history, how will the money for community engagement be spent to ensure that families, visitors and schools understand the cultural significance of north-west Wales?

The world’s fastest zipline is now situated over Penrhyn quarry, with attractions located within the slate mines at Blaenau Ffestiniog—attractions within the world heritage site bringing over a million visitors each year. Since the creation of ZipWorld in 2013, over 400,000 visitors have visited the attractions annually, according to the latest figures published in 2019. There’s been significant investment in this area, with ZipWorld thought to have brought in over £250 million to north Wales’s economy. A review into the impact of the attraction by North Wales Tourism in 2018 found that visitors had the best experience in the cavern attraction. In the same year, there were 152,903 visits, precisely, to the National Slate Museum located in Dinorwig quarry. The castles of King Edward I brought in almost 600,000 visitors between them in 2019. So, can I ask, Deputy Minister, how will we ensure that visitor levels remain as high as that, and as high as they possibly can be? What is Visit Wales doing to promote those particular areas?

As you spoke about the heritage of north-west Wales, I was disappointed not to hear any mention or reference to our sporting heritage in north-west Wales, with famous sportspeople like Wayne Hennessey and George North honing their skills in north-west Wales—and they’ve gone on to represent our country with distinction in their respective sports. So, I’d hoped we’d have heard something from the Minister today to recognise their impact in inspiring future sporting stars in north-west Wales. With that in mind, Deputy Minister, what steps are you taking to recognise their contributions to Welsh sporting heritage, and also to improve facilities locally to secure the sporting stars of the future?

As the Deputy Minister mentioned, you’ll no doubt be aware that our castles are truly world renowned, and that’s certainly the case for those in north and north-west Wales. Gwrych castle in Conwy county has found new-found fame over the last couple of years, with it being home to ITV’s I’m a Celebrity…Get Me Out of Here! Thousands of additional visitors, including Sam Rowlands, I think, have been to see Gwrych castle in recent years, in all its glory.

The Deputy Minister, I’m sure, will be mindful of the fact that we can’t talk about the heritage of our areas without talking about tourism. Caernarfon castle was used by the monarchy in 1911 and 1969 for the investiture of the Princes of Wales, and the one in 1969, for the now King Charles, was seen by 19 million people across Great Britain and a further 500 million across the world. That was selling our country to the world with our world heritage. Blaenau Ffestiniog’s historic railway was voted Europe’s best scenic railway earlier this year, and the slate landscape of north-west Wales became our fourth heritage site in July 2021, following a wonderful effort spanning a 15-year campaign.

Those are just some of the areas with significant importance, but what do they all have in common? They rely on visitors from around the world. But unfortunately, the Welsh Government wants to impose a tourism tax on these areas—an industry-killing tourism tax. That's the real threat that these sites and other important heritage sites across north-west Wales and beyond are facing. Therefore, Deputy Minister, could you outline what discussions you've had with either the Minister for finance or the Minister for Economy about the impact that this industry-killing tax will have on these sites and the heritage industry across north-west Wales? Thank you.

Can I thank Tom Giffard for those comments and those questions? If I start with his first comments around the engagement and visitor management programme, that's something that we're clearly continuing to engage on with the local community, with the museum of north Wales and the slate landscape management organisations, including Gwynedd Council, Snowdonia national park and so on. So, there will be ongoing engagement with those organisations that will be delivering that engagement, and I would hope to be able to come back to you at some point in the not-too-distant future with an update on how that has worked in practice and what the level of visitor engagement has been for that. 

You make a number of other points about heritage and tourism in the area, and you quite rightly point to the fact that we have two significant world heritage sites—not only the slate landscapes, but the castles of King Edward and so on. What we do know is that those sites attract somewhere in the region of 500,000 to 600,000 visitors a year. Certainly what we are hoping is that the development that we've invested in at Caernarfon castle will see those visitor numbers increase. Part of the purpose of that development is to bring more visitors to that part of Wales, but it is also not to forget the story that we want Caernarfon castle to be telling. Part of that investment is about telling that story and for people to see that story with warts and all, in all its honesty, and through all of the turbulent times of the history of that castle. But, let's not forget that over that castle today flies the Welsh flag, and, of course, that is the important end role in the history of Caernarfon castle.

In terms of the comments about the zip wire, obviously that is a huge tourist attraction again in that area. It sits within the heritage landscape, so we are working very closely with the owners of the zip wire so that they can work to develop their offer and their site whilst at the same time having a sympathetic approach to what is an attraction that sits in the middle of what is now a world heritage landscape.

You quite rightly point to the issues around sporting heritage. I'm very grateful to Sam Rowlands, who is bringing a debate tomorrow, actually, on that, and I'll be responding to that. So, maybe some of the questions that you've raised will be answered in the response to that debate. But, you're absolutely right: our sporting heritage is something to be very proud of, and the north Wales sporting heritage in particular has a lot to shout about. I will say more about that tomorrow in response to Sam's debate. My statement today was very specifically about the slate landscapes and about Caernarfon castle. 

In terms of the tourism levy, I take my hat off to Tom and to all of his Conservative colleagues who seek to raise this issue of the tourism levy at each and every opportunity that they have. It's what you do; you're the opposition, and I understand that that's what you need to do. Obviously, we want to see a thriving tourism industry, of course we do, and we want to see that strong recovery from the pandemic. It needs to be reiterated again and again—because it has been said many times—that the visitor levy will be a discretionary levy for local authorities to determine for themselves whether they feel that a very small proportion of visitor spend in their area is taken in a tourism levy that will help to develop tourism in that area.

I just recently came back from Italy. I went to Italy on holiday in the summer, and I was very fortunate to get to the world heritage vineyard landscape of Piedmont in the north of Italy. It was very difficult to drag myself away from it—it was beautiful—but I happily paid a tourism levy when I was there, as I normally do in any of the holiday locations that I go to. As colleagues will be aware, the Women’s Rugby World Cup starts next week in New Zealand and, as sports Minister, I will be going out to New Zealand to offer the support of the Government and the Welsh nation to our women playing rugby out there. I've just had to apply for a visa to enter New Zealand and, lo and behold, when applying for that visa I also had to pay an £18 tourism levy. That's just the way it is. There are more than 40 countries and holiday destinations around the world that have a visitor levy, and I think if the visitor levy was as destructive as you suggest it might be, most of those countries would have abandoned it by now.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for this afternoon's statement.

If I may start with the last point, I agree with the Deputy Minister—I think it's a fallacy to keep saying that the tourism tax will put people off coming to Wales. Actually, the real threat to tourism in north Wales and Wales as a whole is rising energy costs impacting businesses and the cost-of-living crisis meaning that people won't be able to go on holiday. Because, as we know, holidays within Wales are really important, and we're seeing the hardship on families. Also, we know that local authorities will be impacted. There is an opportunity to use this tax to invest in vital infrastructure so that we can support tourism. I just wanted to put my point on record there.

As you've mentioned, Minister, it is really important that we take stock, because of the 15 years of preparation for that successful bid a year ago, and so much to celebrate. Because when you consider the history, slate has been quarried in the area for over 1,800 years, and it's during the industrial revolution that demand surged and slate from Gwynedd was widely used and transported across the world. It's still highly regarded to this day. It's still a live industry and, different from what we see in Big Pit and so on, where it's an industry of the past, obviously, this is an industry that still sustains the local economy. So, it is important that we look at it in that context. Obviously, that provides challenges to the local authority in particular, in terms of how you support an industry whilst maintaining that industrial landscape.

I noticed that Tom Giffard also mentioned that the National Slate Museum is celebrating 50 years this year. I was pleased to see, yesterday on Twitter, that they’ve achieved over 4 million visitors during that time. It could be so much more than that, but the infrastructure is currently not in place. This also relates to the point around the castles in north Wales. When you look at visitors to Caernarfon at the moment, to Caernarfon castle in particular, many come by bus. They're doing a tour of the UK, and perhaps will only come to north Wales on a day-long tour. So, one of the things I would like to ask is: how are you investing so that we have the infrastructure there locally to ensure that more visitors stay and spend money in the area, and also have an opportunity to immerse themselves in the Welsh language and culture—that it's not just something that they get through visiting the castle or whatever other attraction, that they actually get that opportunity to immerse themselves in a way that also supports local businesses?

I'd also like to ask you specifically if you could clarify what you mean by 'the museum of north Wales'. It seems to me, from the wording of your statement, that this is something distinct from the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum. There is some confusion amongst local stakeholders and also the museum sector as a whole in terms of what you mean by 'the museum of north Wales'. Is this something that is being developed as Welsh Government's vision for the site, or something for Amgueddfa Cymru? Because, after all, the story of slate is a national story, so I'm keen that we are able to see the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum in terms of that national context. I do express concern about that use of 'museum of north Wales' rather than having that national story. In the same vein, I wonder if you could outline what financial support is being provided to Amgueddfa Cymru to realise the ambitions of that redevelopment.

There are so many things that we must welcome in terms of that world heritage status, but obviously the challenge will be ensuring that the funding is in place for the local authority and local partners, in light of the cost-of-living crisis. Therefore, can I ask what is that strategic vision and plan to ensure that we take every advantage possible? I see that there is some development, but is this going to be an ongoing conversation with support and strategy from the Welsh Government?

Diolch, Heledd. Can I start by agreeing absolutely with your opening remarks about how the threat to tourism and the visitor economy at the moment is the cost-of-living crisis? I think most of our tourism partners and stakeholders would tell us that. Myself and the Minister for Economy regularly meet with tourism stakeholders, and that is one of the issues that they tell us, not just in terms of them running their businesses and the additional costs and the threats to their businesses for that, but actually the cost to visitors to come here, because that is one of the things that gets knocked off the list when people are thinking about essential spend. So, I absolutely agree with you on that. 

In terms of the slate heritage, again I agree. The slate industry has been described as the most Welsh of industries. Nearly all the workers were native to the region, they were from within Wales, the Welsh language was used consistently at all levels of the workforce and management, and that is still the case today. So, I think very much that is something that is important to recognise and is important to embed in the visitor offer. The visitor offer has to embed the Welsh language as being part of your experience of travelling to and visiting that part of north-west Wales. That is very much something that I know that Gwynedd Council and Snowdonia national park, who are partners in the development of the landscape, are very keen to ensure happens, and it's written into their development plans.

On the infrastructure, again, there is nothing I would argue with you on that. The infrastructure is much wider than anything within my brief, because that is a huge question, which involves my colleagues in other ministries, but one of the things that I could say is that that is something very much that a tourism levy could assist with, in terms of the infrastructure—it would help to develop an area for tourism. But the infrastructure in terms of how those tourist attractions are developed is very much the responsibility of the local authority, and I guess that is one of the things that they will be taking on board and they will be thinking about when they decide whether or not they would want to have a tourism levy in that area. 

Just to come back to your point about Welsh language and culture, the world heritage site nomination—not necessarily now about the tourist attraction, but the world heritage site nomination—recognised the importance of the Welsh language and culture. The steering board and the board meetings for the heritage site are all held in Welsh, and the language remains central with the community engagement and ambassador schemes. I would not be fearful of any threat or concern around the development and the promotion of the Welsh language in that area.

To come back, then, to your final point, which I think is a very valid point, about the north Wales museum and the slate museum and their interaction and their relationship, the development of the museum of north Wales, as you know, was a significant programme for government commitment, as is the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum site at Llanberis. To be clear, Heledd, because it may not have been in my statement, the redevelopment of the museum will focus on providing new, improved visitor welcome facilities, education facilities and community facilities to support the international profile that the UNESCO world heritage site will bring. But the redeveloped museum will become the north Wales headquarters for Amgueddfa Cymru. So, that will house displays of extensive collections of art, natural science, history and archaeology from the region that are currently held in other parts of Wales. So, it is about transferring that to north Wales. And it's hoped that the redeveloped museum will then become a hub for other cultural and heritage offers across the region. 

In terms of where we're going with that, work is under way on a feasibility study, which will include presenting proposals for how a museum of north Wales and the enhanced role for the National Slate Museum will be delivered. Amgueddfa Cymru has established an internal steering group now to develop that project, and a project director has recently been appointed to lead on that. And I know that Amgueddfa Cymru has engaged with the local community and visitors to the site, as well as museums and cultural organisations across Wales, and they're continuing to gather feedback on how that site, both the slate museum and the north Wales museum, should be developed.

I welcome the statement and the investment in the area, and I'm proud to say that north Wales now has three world heritage sites, including the Pontcysyllte aqueduct, which is fantastic. And I'm looking forward to the creation of the new national park as well. The Clwydian Range and Dee Valley area of outstanding natural beauty was designated thus because of its built heritage, its castles and its iron age hill forts and abbey as well. So, there's a lot of heritage in north Wales, which is fantastic. 

I think you've answered some of the questions that I was going to ask, because Heledd has raised them already, but I am concerned about the squeeze on public funding. You've worked with partners on this, but going forward on the programme for government and all the things that are in there, like the national museum for north Wales—that's just been mentioned—Theatr Clwyd, the AONB being designated a national park, all these things that come under culture and heritage in your portfolio, I'm just a bit worried about whether you'll be able to carry on delivering them with this squeeze on public service funding. Thank you. 

Thank you, Carolyn, for those questions. You're absolutely right, the squeeze on public funding and the challenge to us is not insignificant and is a real danger. What I can say to you is that the programme for government commitments that we have made in the areas that you have outlined—so, the national museum of Wales, the development of that national museum, Theatr Clwyd, the football museum in north Wales, of course, which is very relevant at the moment, and all those other cultural commitments in our programme for government, we are committed to delivering.

What we do know, however, is that the value of our budget is now considerably less than it was, because at the time when our budget was allocated, we had inflation running at a very, very low level. We now have inflation running at closer to 10 per cent, and you don't have to be an economist to know that what that means is, for the same amount of money, you've got less buck to buy stuff. So, the value of our budget is far less than it was when it was allocated, and that will present challenges, there is no doubt. And we know that Theatr Clwyd are experiencing challenges with rising construction costs around their redevelopment and how all of that is going to be met. But what I can say to you absolutely from here today is that our commitment to those programme for government promises, the manifesto promises and the areas of the culture portfolio that were included are still very much on track. Thank you.  

I thank you, Deputy Minister, for bringing forward today's statement on world heritage in north-west Wales—of course, one half of a fantastic region in north Wales. As you outlined, it is really encouraging to see the slate landscape of north-west Wales being inscribed on the UNESCO world heritage site list. And I'd also like to put on record my thanks to all the organisations, individuals and communities who have helped to make this happen. And, as already outlined, this newly found status is an excellent way to recognise the importance of our slate industry, and I was really glad to hear you talk about the important role that heritage plays in our tourism economy, bringing a number of benefits, attracting more visitors, boosting investment, creating jobs and, really importantly, telling an important part of our story as north Walians. It's this story that I want to focus on just for a moment, because that story is important for visitors but it's also really important for our local residents and our local communities to understand why the landscape looks the way that it does. And I reflect on my upbringing, living in Penygroes as a child up until nine years old, with the Nantlle Valley right on my doorstep, and perhaps not understanding or appreciating what all that meant. So, I wonder, Deputy Minister, how you will work with the Minister for education to ensure that our children in our local communities, where this world heritage status now is, also understand the importance of their heritage. And yes, for visitors to understand it well, but also, our local communities, and particularly our children in those communities.

Thank you, Sam, for that question. I think that's a very, very important point that you raise: our history, our heritage, how we've evolved, and why we are as we are today is hugely important, and it's something that children do need to understand and learn from a very early age. And that is one of the benefits that the new curriculum does give us; it gives us that flexibility to be able to introduce those kinds of things into the national curriculum. And I'll just give you an example. I was very proud to have been invited to an event at the National Museum Wales at Saint Fagan's recently, where a whole range of schools had been engaged in projects about their local communities, and that was a very good example of how you will engage very young children in finding out about their own area and bringing it to life, and they brought along their projects, and some of them won prizes and so on. And, you know, in the area that I represent, of course, a former coal-mining and iron industry, we see that as being hugely important to the culture of the area. So, I have no doubt that, when schools look at what the national curriculum will be able to deliver in those areas, that local history, that local culture, whether it is language, whether it is the industry, whether it is the topography, whatever it is in an area that has made that area what it is today will be included in a child's education. Not to do so would be quite scandalous, and I have every confidence that the new curriculum will allow us to do that.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister for this statement. This is excellent news, isn't it? It recognises the importance of an area, the landscape, the technology and the people in that part of Wales, not only for Welsh history, but for global history, and it demonstrates the history of an area going from an agricultural background to becoming industrial and now, it's post-industrial. And I look at Dwyfor Meirionnydd and the story of Bryn Eglwys quarry in Abergynolwyn and the Talyllyn railway, which is attached to that, the slate city of Blaenau Ffestiniog and the role of Bro Ffestiniog, and the port that took the slate to the world, to Australia, the United States, Denmark—that's Porthmadog, of course, and the role of Porthmadog in that history. It is something to be celebrated and we should ensure that we always remember it, and to take Sam's earlier point as to how children will benefit, we should put on record here the excellent work that this project did with Lle-CHI, ensuring that children benefited from learning about this in the area.

So, in terms of who benefits from this status, can I ask you what you will do to ensure—in terms of the income and the tourism benefit, what will you do to ensure that it's these communities that benefit economically from these investments and from the new UNESCO status?

Thank you, Mabon, for that question. I think that that's a hugely important point, developing these sites, having a world heritage site on our doorstep, an inscribed world heritage site—well, not just one, but four in Wales—two in that part of Wales, and everything that that brings. So, yes, it is about acknowledging and recognising our history and the importance of that history, not just to Wales but to the world, as you quite rightly pointed out, but it is about developing the economy of those areas, because these are post-industrial areas that have suffered heavily as a result of the loss of those industries. And, again, I refer to the area that I represent, after the coal and iron industries went—and my colleague here from Blaenau Gwent has a similar situation—we are still dealing with the legacy of post-industrial decline, so if we can develop tourism in an area like north-west Wales that shines a light on its history and brings people there to celebrate that history with us, then that has to be good for the local economy, and if the local economy is developing, then everybody benefits. What I can't say to you is in pounds, shillings and pence, how much everybody gets as a result of that. But if a local economy is thriving, then the people that live within that should be beneficiaries of that thriving economy, and that is the overall objective.

Deputy Minister, the culture committee visited Llanberis and the National Slate Museum in the spring, and we received presentations from people there about the work that was being done to support the world heritage status and how that's going to be built upon. I was hugely impressed by that work and hugely impressed by the presentations that we received. I was especially impressed by the way in which Dafydd Wigley was driving and leading much of this work, and he gave us an excellent presentation both on the structures they'd created, but also on how they were bringing people together and then achieving a shared ambition and vision. What was screaming out at me during that presentation was, 'Why can't we do this elsewhere?' You've already referred in a previous answer to our shared history in the Heads of the Valleys, the great industrial arc from Blaenavon across to Dowlais. And I'm asking the question again: if the model works in the north, why can't it work elsewhere? And perhaps how we can then bring together people to maximise the potential of our shared heritage and our shared history elsewhere in the country.

I think that, again, is a very valid point, Alun. I was just about to say that you have a world heritage site in your constituency, but, of course, it's not yours, is it, it's Lynne Neagle's—it's in Torfaen, in Blaenavon. But nevertheless, we have a world heritage site in the northern Valleys.

But I think if I go back to the point that Mabon was raising in his—we refer to the LleCHI project that was closely involved with the development of the inscription of the heritage landscape in north-west Wales. Those children were so closely involved in how that story was going to be told and how that site is to be developed, and if we are to learn the lessons of successful world heritage inscriptions, then, yes, we absolutely should be rolling that out elsewhere. It doesn't have to just be in world heritage sites. We know the kind of heritage and history and fabulous landscapes that we've got right the way across the Valleys—the Valleys Regional Park is an example. So, we need to draw down the best examples that we can for developing historical visitor attractions and historical landscapes in Wales and what works and roll that out across other sites. And in that respect, I absolutely agree with what you're saying.

Finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you, Deputy Minister, for bringing forward your statement. It's very interesting, but being as the old chestnut came up of the tourism levy—or tourism tax is what it is really—would you not agree with me—? You've mentioned that you're going to New Zealand and you've been to Italy and it didn't affect or bother you paying a tourism levy, but let's be honest, the people of Wales have been facing a cost-of-living crisis for quite some time, because, in fact, the average median wage in Wales is considerably less than that in England. Now, a lot of our tourism in Wales is domestic tourism where people from one part of Wales like to go to another. So, how do I square up what you've just said? Let's be honest, we are Senedd Members on an allowance that is considerably higher than the median wage, so how do people, say, living in Blaenau Gwent, who may decide to come to Aberconwy—how do you think that they, with this new, other cost-of-living crisis—? [Interruption.] Hang on, I'm talking to the Deputy Minister. Compounded with the cost-of-living crisis we've seen for years in Wales and another one with the energy problems, how do you think that people on fixed or low incomes are really going to be able to afford a tourism tax? Thank you.

Janet, again, I take my hat off to you, I really do. For Conservative Members to stand up and stand there and talk about how sorry they feel for people who are hit by the cost-of-living crisis just absolutely beggars belief. Have you completely missed the damage that your Government has done over the last few days, let alone the last 12 years? So, when we want to talk about a cost-of-living crisis, let's just talk about the mini fiscal statement that was issued on Friday, which you've now had to do an about-turn on because it was so unpopular, about how your—[Interruption.]—how your Government—how your Government—has borrowed millions—[Interruption.]—has borrowed millions—to try to deal with the energy crisis, instead of taxing the energy companies who have returned record profits running into hundreds of billions of pounds. Instead, what your Government in the UK has done is landed the British people with debt for years to come. So, I'm not going to stand here and take any lessons from Conservatives about—[Interruption.] I am not going to take any lessons from any Conservative politician about the impacts of the cost-of-living crisis on people in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister for that statement. And can I ask that you shout, on behalf of all 60 Members here, very loudly in support of the Welsh rugby women's team when you go to New Zealand in a few days' or weeks' time? Pob lwc. [Interruption.] When they reach the finals—and I said 'when' not 'if', Joyce—we will also ask the Deputy Minister to shout for them too.