Item 6 is next, a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on biodiversity. I call on Julie James to make the statement.

Diolch, Llywydd. Biodiversity loss and ecosystem collapse is a leading threat to humanity. The natural environment underpins our well-being and economic prosperity, yet our relationship with it is completely unsustainable. To ensure future generations are able to enjoy our beautiful natural heritage, we need to accelerate the actions we are taking to halt the decline in biodiversity. 

Over the summer, I've been working with a group of key experts and practitioners to undertake a biodiversity deep-dive to develop a set of collective actions we can take in Wales to support nature's recovery. The deep-dive was held ahead of a landmark United Nations Conference of the Parties, or COP15, in Canada in December, where global leaders will meet to agree targets for the next 10 years to combat the nature emergency.

Through the deep-dive, we identified key recommendations to ensure meaningful delivery of the target known as 30x30: protecting and effectively managing at least 30 per cent of our land, freshwater and sea for nature by 2030. This is one of the global targets to be agreed at COP15. These recommendations build on the action we are already taking as a Government, including the recent action plan to tackle phosphorous pollution in our rivers, and implementing statutory nature targets.

A priority will be to transform our protected sites series so that it is better, bigger, and more effectively connected. These protected sites are very much the jewels in the crown for biodiversity and were designated to protect some of our most important habitats and species in Wales. We will expand and accelerate our nature networks programme to improve the condition and connectivity of our protected sites network and to restore the condition of key habitats to ensure plants and animals are more resilient to climate change. Further designation of sites will also be an important tool in helping to protect our most vulnerable sites, together with appropriate management. I will also raise the ambition of our national peatland action programme, so that, by 2030, the programme will be delivering at a scale capable of reaching the net-zero 2050 target of 45,000 hectares of peatland restored.

To support local collaborative partnership approaches, I am pleased to announce that we will provide an additional £3.3 million to local nature partnerships over the next three years. We recognise that LNPs are key in bringing together organisations, businesses and communities to take collective action to address local priorities. 

Our marine environment contains some of the most biologically diverse seas in the UK, with close to 50 per cent protected within the marine protected area network. However, while we have protected key habitats and species such as the bottlenose dolphin, just over half of those are in unfavourable condition. As a priority, we will accelerate action to complete the MPA network, to ensure the shortfalls in protection of habitats and features are addressed. I will shortly be launching the marine conservation zone designation process as part of our action to complete the network. We will finalise the assessment of potential fishing gear interactions with features of marine protected areas. This will enable us to understand what damage these do to MPA features and what management measures may be needed to prevent this.

I also want to unlock the potential of designated landscapes of national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty to deliver more for nature. I believe they have a vital role in reversing nature's decline, as well as contributing to the 30x30 target in some of our most cherished and iconic landscapes. We will support national parks and AONBs to develop prioritised action plans for nature restoration, embedding these in strategic planning.

Llywydd, we also want to establish a series of nature recovery exemplar areas—either existing or new landscape-scale collaborations of public, private, voluntary and community actors who can come together to manage and restore nature in protected areas and the wider landscape.

We also want to explore the role of the new International Union for Conservation of Nature-defined status of other effective area-based conservation measures, OECMs, in recognising areas outside protected sites that can contribute to 30x30. I will set up an expert working group to identify candidate nature recovery exemplar areas and OECMs, including the management vehicles and funding mechanisms needed to establish these.

Llywydd, we will continue to reform land and marine management and planning, including spatial planning, to deliver more for both protected sites and wider land- and seascapes. We will take a strategic spatial approach, underpinned by robust evidence, to ensure that we are taking the right action in the right place. This will be achieved through strengthened guidance, such as 'Future Wales' policy 9, mainstreaming biodiversity, ecosystem resilience and green infrastructure.

We want to invest in specialist advisers to work with land managers and farmers to manage key habitats and ensure the right incentives are designed into the future sustainable farming scheme. 

Tackling biodiversity loss by 2030 will require current delivery to be both more effective and scaled up. We recognise that we need to unlock additional funding to deliver for nature at a far greater scale and pace. As key budget holders, we also have a role to play; we need to ensure all our budgets seek to contribute or deliver positive actions that leave biodiversity in a better state.

Effective monitoring is needed to chart progress towards delivering 30x30. I will establish a monitoring and evidence task group to continue the work needed to establish robust and appropriate monitoring and evidence frameworks.

A society-wide approach is required to tackle both the nature and climate emergencies. We need to build a strong foundation for future delivery through capacity building, behaviour change, awareness raising and skills development, strengthening connections between local communities and nature, and helping people understand and be capable of taking actions that will make a positive difference.

Llywydd, a team Wales effort is required to drive a decade of decisive action so that we can put the brakes on biodiversity decline. It is incumbent upon all of us here today to lead by example so that future generations are able to enjoy the natural environment, as we all have. I am extremely grateful to all who have taken part in my deep-dive, particularly the core group, the expert sub-groups and the round-table discussions, helping put us on a pathway to deliver for a nature-enriched future. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister, for the statement. I must be honest, the latter part, where you said, 'We need a team Wales approach'—you know, I can't disagree with that.

Now, I do welcome the commitment to develop and adapt monitoring and evidence frameworks to measure the progress towards the 30x30 target and guide prioritisation of action. But there is a flaw, and the 30x30 target has not been put into law. Now, we have declared a climate crisis and put the 2050 target in regulations. Even you note in your written statement that:

'The imperative to act is now and Wales needs to deliver a decade of action if we are to become nature positive.'

So, I see no reason why, as a Government, you're not bringing forward this legislation.

In talking about marine environments, I am the proud champion of our harbour porpoises in Wales, so I'm really keen to see all marine mammals protected better. You may also be unsurprised to hear that I welcome the decision to raise the ambition set out in your national peatland action programme so that by 2030 the programme will be delivering at a scale capable of reaching the net-zero 2050 target of 45,000 hectares of peatland restoration.

As you know, I strongly believe that the Welsh Government should be doing more with marine policy. It is good that you are going to accelerate action to complete the MPA network, but it's not enough. We should act on legislative proposals and create a legal duty to form a national marine development plan and to keep it under regular review.

I did welcome the comments you made about spatial planning and the seascape, and I know, through our committee, chaired by Llyr Gruffydd, that there's been a lot of challenge and scrutiny as to why we haven't got that in place now. We both know that statutory policy is what really makes a difference, and key legislation.

But it was with interest that I read of your commitment to unlock the potential of designated landscapes to deliver more for nature. Whilst I agree that projects such as peat bog restoration and natural river course restoration, such as that seen in the Machno valley, offer great opportunity for nature and biodiversity, I want us to be clear from the outset that also, combined with this, must go hand in hand—. And that is food production. Food production in designated landscapes is also key to our future.

As Dr Kate Williams of Aberystwyth University quite rightly stated, carefully managed and non-intensively grazed upland flocks have the potential to support our ecosystems, our biodiversity, and they will help to manage the iconic landscape. So, I would be grateful, Minister, if you could confirm whether you do have any intention of delivering for nature by reducing the head of livestock in designated landscapes. Because, with the tree targets that you’ve imposed, whilst I know you say that farmers have to apply for these, farmers are concerned—it was even on tv last night, when I was watching this programme—farmers are very, very worried about the fact that, in trying to do their bit for the environment by planting the extra trees, this is actually going to put pressure them as regards producing food. Given the situation in Ukraine, given the situation during COVID, where it was our farmers who, really—pardon the pun—stepped up to the plate and actually fed us during the problems we had with COVID, it’s apparent now more than ever. And I know my late friend and colleague Brynle Williams used to, many, many years ago, raise in this Chamber how worried he was about food shortages going forward.

I’m a bit concerned that you may be pursuing a dangerous trajectory by the comments in the written statement that you back the idea of

'farmers actively managing at least 10% of their land to maintain and enhance semi-natural habitats...creating new habitat features'.

So, it would be good to have a better explanation on that. Farmers to have the ability to designate 10 per cent of their high-quality farmland used for beef and dairy to become new habitat features—how are you going to implement that and still be saying that we’re backing our farmers to the nth degree in helping them to produce as much good quality Welsh produce as possible?

In 2021, NFU Cymru released its 'Growing Together' strategy, and that outlines a plan for sustainably increasing tree cover in Wales, integrating trees into existing farming systems, rather than replacing those systems. NFU Cymru have maintained that sensitive tree planting will be the key to enabling Welsh agriculture to meet Welsh Government’s carbon targets while protecting the wider economic, environmental, social and cultural benefits provided by Welsh farming.

Can I remind you that you’re out of time now? I’ve been quite generous already. If you’ve got one final point to make, make it now.

Yes. Will you commit to supporting the NFU Cymru 'Growing Together' strategy, and will you create a legal duty to form a national marine development plan and keep it under regular review? Thank you. Thank you, Llywydd.

Thank you, Janet. So, on the 30x30 and the targets put in law, I’ve said endlessly in this Chamber, and I’ll repeat it again: we expect COP15, which is now being held in December in Canada, and which I very much hope to attend, to set global targets. It’s extremely important that our targets meet those targets and exceed them. So, I’ve said all the way through, we absolutely intend to put the targets in law. Part of the work of the group going forward—. So, we’ve got the first lot of recommendations from the deep-dive group. They will now form an action team that will take it forward. They’re very keen to work with us and continue to do so. I cannot express my gratitude enough for the long, long hours people have put in for no reward other than having done the right thing. Having worked with us, they’re going to continue on. They’ve all agreed to continue on working with us—that includes active farmer associations and so on—to make sure that we have an action plan in place now to get the very specific targets.

So, I agree with you, Janet, but you can’t write down the targets any more than l can. The problem is, it’s all very well to say you want the targets in law, but I don’t know what they are. So, 30x30, sure, we can do that. But, if I wanted to, I could tell you that 30 per cent of the land in Wales is protected already—job done. But you know and I know that that’s not what’s needed. So, what we need are very specific actions, which the expert group will help us work up. We have the wider round-table and stakeholder groups feeding into that, and we will get targets that are meaningful, that hold our feet to the fire, and are indeed in law. But, I need to know what those targets should be. It's no point in me wanting them now when we haven't got them developed, and I also need to know what COP15 will do. I've been consistent in saying that all the way through, so we will follow that through. We will put a Bill through in this Senedd term that puts those into law, but I need to be able to do that in the light of the global arrangements for this. And, as I say, we plan to take a very active part in COP15 as well, as we have been feeding through with all of the Under2 alliances and all the rest of it.

On some of the other things, on the marine development plan, I just don't want to divert very scarce resource. I'm sorry, Janet, but you are a Conservative in the end—so, with the ongoing attack on public services and the amount of resource that we have, diverting resource to doing yet another plan, when what I want is to actually have the plan implemented, is just not something I'm prepared to do. So, I do agree with you that there should be a strategic element to this—we will be including that. We've established the MPA network management steering group. We'll be working with them to produce the action plan. But I want to get on and do it. I don't want to divert my scarce resource to doing yet another plan—we're very much a strategic factory as it is, and I don't want to do that. But I agree with you that it needs to be spatially allocated, so we will be working with that on the action plan.

And then, just to say that it's just as important to work with the fisher folk on the marine plans as it is to work with the farmers on the terrestrial ones. So, we'll be wanting to consult with our fishing industry people, we will want to consult, obviously, with all the non-governmental organisations, and we will want to discuss this with our experts. We had marine experts on the biodiversity deep-dive quite deliberately because this is about all areas—terrestrial, freshwater and the sea. So, we'll be doing that.

And then, just on the farmers, I'm afraid there's a lot of myth-busting that needs to be taken about what we’ve asked farmers to do. Obviously, we want farmers to produce the best food possible, in the most efficient way possible, and the sort of food that we want, going forward, but we also need them to support the absolutely vital biodiversity, without which our food is impossible. If there are no pollinators, there's no food. If there are no habitats for those pollinators, there's no food. So, we have to get a sustainable mix between the right kind of forestry, the right kind of open grassland—not ploughed, not farmed—peatland restoration and that, and the food production. We have to get that mix right, and the truth is it isn't right right now, and that's why we've got destruction of our biodiversity, because our previous farming practices in the twentieth century have contributed to it. They're not solely responsible for it but they have very much contributed to the loss of that biodiversity. So, the sustainable farming scheme, coming forward, will reward farmers for doing that mix properly. And of course we will help them do that, and of course we value the food they produce, but they also produce the air that we breathe and the plants that we are completely reliant on to keep alive, and the species that actually help us control the climate. We've seen what’s happening to the climate. We have to get more resilience for that.

Diolch, Gweinidog. I'm glad that the Welsh Government is now, I hope, moving towards a more ambitious agenda when it comes to addressing the nature emergency. The debates on this area that we've had in the Chamber, I think, have shown that each and every one of us has acknowledged the vital importance of protecting and restoring biodiversity for Wales, but the wider world as well. And I'm really proud that Plaid Cymru led the way in calling on the Senedd to declare a nature emergency and for the Welsh Government to commit to legally binding nature recovery targets and to close that environmental governance gap. We were the first country to formally declare a nature emergency, which is a really exciting and important thing, though today we are still waiting for the policy aims surrounding that to come to fruition. The commitments in our co-operation agreement, of course, are certainly welcome steps towards a more nature-positive Wales. We look forward to continuing collaborative work on that.

Now, on the challenges in this area, being acknowledged—notwithstanding any of those—I do think we need to address the fact that progress has, sadly, been slow when it comes to protecting nature, because nature continues to decline and will still face multiple threats. Minister, you'll know that the UK Government has set out details of a new Bill that threatens to amend or scrap crucial environmental laws. Some of these laws that might be scrapped protect some of our most vulnerable wildlife and green places—they defend clean water, clean air, clean beaches and rivers. Any one of these actions taking place would be a disaster; taken together, in quick succession, would be nothing less than an attack on nature. Now, I really do acknowledge that the deep-dive shows the Welsh Government is taking welcome steps towards putting its aims for nature recovery into practice and strengthening the protected sites network in Wales. I note that the First Minister said in July that the Welsh Government is committed to upholding EU environmental standards. So, can I ask you, Minister, what assessment the Welsh Government has made of the potential impacts of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill and growth plan for the environment in Wales, and what conversations you're having with the UK Government to ensure that its plans don't impact on Wales's ability to determine and achieve our own environmental ambitions please?

The deep-dive includes a recommendation to develop primary legislation—this has come up already—to set overarching nature recovery targets, and that that would be laid as early as possible in this Senedd term. That is obviously very welcome because those legally binding targets are needed urgently. I think, in Wales, we have this opportunity here to be better at setting, yes, ambitious goals and tracking progress towards those goals. We can't afford another decade of business-as-usual for nature. I think everyone—well, I hope that everyone—would agree on that point. So, can you confirm that this will include targets for species abundance and distribution, along with habitat extent and quality, as part of this suite of legally binding, long-term and interim nature recovery targets?

Finally, Minister, do you agree that, in light of the UK Government plans, it's more important than ever to secure this vital legislation for Wales that will close the current environmental governance gap? And could you confirm that work to develop the targets and governance arrangements—all those things that are just so vitally needed—is going to start as soon as possible in anticipation of this upcoming legislation please? Thank you. 

Yes, thank you, Delyth. I couldn't agree more; we all, obviously, need to play our part. Declaring the emergency is one thing; actually taking the very, very difficult actions that are required to make it happen is quite another. I'm afraid I have to say all the time to the Conservatives opposite that it's all very well to say that you have signed up to these things, but then to oppose every single measure that moves us along that path is a very difficult thing. These are not easy things to do or we would have done them. People would have just done them automatically if they were easy. They are hard. They are changing the way that we all live our lives—that's the truth of it. And we have to do that or we will have no planet left. And these are not easy things to do. Every single sector of our society is going to have to look hard at what it's currently doing, and think very hard about what will be needed from that sector of society or that individual or that business to contribute to this, or we will not get there. I can't emphasise that enough. We need that from every single area of our community. We need to work with our communities on behaviour changes, on making the right thing—you hear me say this all the time—easier to do, making the wrong thing harder and harder and harder to do. And, obviously, we need to move people along that continuum. They're not going to go from really dreadful to absolutely excellent in one jump. You've got to get people there, but we've got to get them moving along that continuum. And the kind of dig-your-heels-in and,'Not-me; everybody else but not me', we've just got to get away from that. And the deep-dive people were vehement about that right across the piece, so we've got to do that. 

We absolutely have to get these targets into legislation. I can't agree with you what they'll be because that's what I've asked the experts to do. So, I want to see what happens in COP and I want to see what the global ones look like. I've said this to you endlessly, haven't I? I want to have the targets in place too; I'm frustrated by it. But I don't want to set targets that are easy-peasy or have no relationship to the global work that's been going on. I've had these deep-dive experts—they've been amazing to sit beside; it's a very humbling experience—but they don't agree amongst themselves always about what they should look like. So, we need to get a consensus view about what these targets look like, to make sure they're achievable, because targets that are just set and then gone just increase cynicism and, 'Oh, what's the point?' They have to be achievable, but they have to be stretching, don't they? They have to be just achievable. So, it's important to get that right, and I'm determined to do it. And I want my feet held to that fire. We want reporting—I have to come here and I have to tell you what I've done about it, and all the rest of it. I want those things. But the targets are essential to get right. So, we will do a lot of work now in the run-up to COP, and then in the immediate aftermath of COP, to get those targets agreed across the whole sectors, and then to get them implemented. But, make no mistake, that's all very well, but those targets will mean that we all have to do things differently and in circumstances where that might be very hard. There might be difficult decisions. So, this is not an easy path to take, but we have to do it or we will have no planet left. I couldn't agree more. 

Then, in terms of the UK Government plan, I despair really. So, we have a coach and horses being driven through a planning system. You saw the RSPB's response to that—that they mapped out the protected areas against the so-called investment zones. It's a disaster—an absolute disaster. Of course we will fight them. Of course we will try and keep our EU standards as much as we can. It's not a matter for me; you'd need to ask the Counsel General about the involvement of that. But my big fear is that in diverting resources to fight that battle, we lose even more ground in doing the things we want to do. I just think the Tories are in complete denial about the effect on our limited resources of having to fight a ridiculous and completely unnecessary onslaught on something that they say themselves they want to do. So, I just don't know where to put myself over how cross I am about all of that, but I can assure you we will fight it, we will keep hold of our plan-led system that we have worked so hard on and which is very important to people, and you heard in First Minister's questions only this afternoon that people want a bonfire of planning laws but not in their own area, which is a pretty classic reaction.

I very much welcome the statement by the Minister. We cannot continue to lose species. I'd take up more than my minute by listing the species in Wales that are under threat, but in biodiversity, of course, we need an equilibrium. We cannot afford to lose top-end predators. If we lose top-end predators, then animals lower down the food chain multiply massively, putting pressure on animals further down the food chain. We have seen that, for example, with rats; the animals that used to eat them have been reduced and so consequently what we're seeing is an awful lot more rats than we used to have. What are the Welsh Government going to do to support the top-end predators that are really important for biodiversity? 

On rivers and the sea, we cannot continue to flood it with untreated sewage and agricultural pollution. We have seen the growth of algae in the River Wye caused by agricultural pollution. NRW undertook research prompted by excessive growth of algae, often caused by high phosphate levels in the water. Parts of the river turned green during sunny weather and when water flow was low, causing potential damage to ecosystems and biodiversity. But the river pollution doesn't end there; it runs into the sea. So, what additional action is the Welsh Government planning to stop river and sea pollution? In the nineteenth century, there was a belief that you could pump anything into the sea and it would just disappear. We now know that that's not true, so hopefully we can take some action.

Yes, thank you, Mike. On the apex predator point, I completely agree with that. I don't know if Members have seen the film of Yellowstone park and the reintroduction of the wolves. If you haven't watched that, watch it—just Google, 'Yellowstone park reintroduction of wolves'. And that's all they did. They had real biodegradation, they had overgrazing by all sorts—they had all kinds of things, Honestly, it makes you cry to watch. They put the apex predator back in, controlled the numbers of the other things and the park regenerated. It was astonishing to watch, and that's what happens when you interfere with ecosystems without understanding what the outcome will be. It's well worth watching if you haven't watched it. It makes you go cold and shivery—I've gone just thinking about it now. 

So, actually understanding—this is the point, Mike, isn't it—from the experts what that ecosystem should look like, what that apex predator actually does and its role in maintaining the ecosphere that we're talking about is a really important thing that we're definitely working on. We've been looking, as I'm sure you know, at whether the reintroduction of beavers is a good idea in some of our rivers. I have no idea yet—nobody panic. We haven't decided yet. [Laughter.] But, we are looking at it—

I'm panicking more about wolves, actually. [Laughter.]

And the wolves. It's really important to understand what the ecosystem you're looking at now looks like and what is currently controlling that. What is the substitute for the apex predator? It's more complicated, isn't it, than that, because there will be other methodologies. Things move into the space vacated by an apex predator, for example. But it's really interesting—watch the Yellowstone programme—because we have removed all the apex predators from a large part of our wildlife, so what is going to control the population explosion of things that would otherwise have been predated? That's a real issue.

The other issue is that where we are trying to protect a species that has been overpredated, there is a really difficult conversation about how to do that. Lethal control, as it's euphemistically called—killing the apex predator because it's eating the ground-nesting bird chicks, and so on—is very controversial. We do do that in some parts of Wales. So, looking to see whether we've got the right solution to a problem is something I'm really keen to do, and I am not an expert in that. I need to ask people for advice about that. There is a range of views about that. We've had some heated discussions in these groups, I can tell you. But trying to hit on a solution that most people across the globe, not just in Wales, agree is the solution is really important, Mike. So, we're working hard to do that. And we have to do that with our land managers and our landowners, don't we? We have to understand what that looks like for them. So, there are lots of people working on that. 

I launched this report at the National Botanic Garden of Wales yesterday. They have—I can't remember what they call it now—a hawk programme there, though that's not what they call it, but a predator bird programme there. That's amazing, and if you talk to them about how they reintroduced those into the landscape, that's also amazing. So, they know what acreage of landscape will support one tawny owl, for example. So, they know where they can and can't introduce more, because they would just fight or starve or whatever it is. So, it's really interesting, and there's lots of work across Wales and across the globe going on on that. 

On the other point that you made, about the river pollutants, absolutely. I don't want to be a harbinger of doom all the time, though. We could go faster, don't get me wrong, and we could do better, but slowly they are still improving. I don't want people to come away with the idea that rivers are actually de-improving in Wales. Some of our rivers are in crisis, real crisis, but actually over the whole picture in Wales there is a slow improvement. What I have been asked to do as part of the deep-dive outcome is accelerate that, understand why that's worked in some areas and accelerate it, and get it out into the areas where we have real crisis like the Wye and the Usk, for example, or what's called the Brecon supercatchment. So, the point that I'm making, Mike, is that we know what works in some areas; we need to accelerate it across the piece. And I go back to what I said in response to Delyth, Llywydd: that cannot happen unless every single part of our community plays its part. There's no point in pointing fingers at people and saying, 'It's your fault', or 'It's your fault'; each player has to play its part in getting down its contribution to that pollution.

I welcome your focus on biodiversity and your passion. It's wonderful to be a Member of the Senedd and hear biodiversity being talked about so much. I was banging my head on a brick wall, basically, as a councillor for 12 years as a biodiversity champion, but to hear your passion is wonderful. The understanding of the nature and climate emergencies is in such stark contrast to the UK Government, who are insisting on deregulation and a bonfire of planning regulations under the investment zones, as you mentioned earlier. I'm really worried that they're going to meet the targets that they've set. So, it's a team Wales approach, and the work of the local nature partnerships is really wonderful and what they're doing. I know that you've provided them with capital funding. Will you be able to commit to capital funding going forward as well, over the next few years, to help them continue their good work? Thank you.

Yes, thank you, Carolyn. So, we had the water companies very much involved in our deep-dive and in our wider round-table, and our stakeholders. I personally have met with Ofwat—I always get the Ofs mixed up; Ofwat in this case—to talk about the new pricing structure, because for Dŵr Cymru in particular, not so much for Hafren Dyfrdwy, it's a not for profit, so we need to get the structure right so that the investment can go in in the right way. And actually we're disadvantaged by that. So, we've had a pretty robust conversation with Ofwat about making sure that that's taken into account, and we continue to have that. And Dŵr Cymru were on the core group as well, in terms of some of this. But, absolutely, we have to get those things right. We're still using a Victorian sewerage system across most of the UK, which is just not fit for purpose. So, we've got to do a lot of things. So, I've got some parallel things going on to the deep-dive. So, we've done an investigation and a review into the sustainable drainage systems, whether we should be accelerating that. I've written out and reminded all councils that there are already laws in place stopping you from putting impermeable covering on your front gardens and on your drives. I really do feel that people should know that and stop doing that; the run-off into the gutters is terrible from that. Joyce, you've talked about that since I've known you, I think. We have actually put the legislation in place and we need our local authority partners to step up, and I think we just need individuals to know about it.

On the funding, Carolyn, yes, I'm very pleased to say that we've put the funding into a three-year cycle so that people can plan for a much longer programme, so that they can understand how to spread out the action they have and can plan for a medium-term future. And I'm hoping that we can, year on year, extend the three-year programme as we go. It's been very successful, and that pulling together of all of the various levers, community, the non-governmental organisations, Government, councils and so on has been very successful.

I'm looking forward to the wolves in Singleton park, Mike. [Laughter.]

I have to say at this point, Huw, to you that there are some people who would say there were already wolves in Singleton park. [Laughter.]

Listen, I'm going to rattle through some very quick things. First of all, well done on this and well done to the people who put this together with the biodiversity deep-dive. This is significant—every word in this statement carries us on a significant way. Now the devil is going to be in the detail, but can I welcome this very much, welcome the fact that you've restated today, in response to the statement as well, your commitment to bring forward statutory targets and ones that are stretching and ambitious? And they've got to be the right ones. I know you've stuck on this ground for some time; that's great, but we're looking forward to it and we'll hold you to that being stretching and ambitious. The signals for this are important around the team Wales; total contrast to what's happening in England, what we're seeing; we've all got to pull this together. And would you confirm for me that, actually, a lot of farmers have been involved in this deep-dive, a lot have contributed? They not only wanted this, they wanted us to go further. And would you also tell us how we're going to do the funding? Because you mentioned towards the end of the statement there that—it says:

'We recognise that we need to unlock additional funding to deliver for nature at a far greater scale and pace.'

I agree. When and how?

Yes, so we had various farmers groups involved in the deep-dive and in the stake—. So, there's a kind of hub-and-spoke thing; that's how we did it. We decided we couldn't have a constructive discussion with more than about 12 people in the core group, so we had a sort of hub-and-spoke model, so members of the core group also sat on the round-tables and stakeholder groups and fed that in. We had quite a big kind of substructure feeding into the core group recommendations. All of that's in the public domain, so you can see what that looks like.

So, yes, very much so. The absolute consensus across the piece was, 'What you're doing is fine, but you need to do it bigger, better, more connected and faster', basically. So, nobody wanted to see it go any slower. And there was some discussion about whether the '30 per cent of the land' by 2030 was ambitious enough, but the consensus view was that if we managed to do that, we would have made a step change in the way that things are happening in Wales, because actually, we've got nowhere near 30 per cent of our land in good conservation status, so, actually, it's quite a big ask, really; sad though that is to say. Also, the consensus view was that if you got to 30 per cent of the land in good conservation status, you would—. Because the only way to do that is to do this. I've done all the hinterland as well, because part of the problem with our SSSIs and the various other designated landscapes is what happens around the edge of them has a really big impact on what's happening inside them, so the 30 per cent would be spreading it out anyway, which is good to know.

But it is about doing these difficult things that people will—. We all agree now, because I'm talking in high strategic things, but when it comes down to the individual things, it's not going to be easy to understand what these things look like. Every sector will have to change. Absolutely every sector will have to change, Huw. 

And then on the levering-in of finance, we've got some innovative work going on on that. We've got some difficult choices to make and some difficult conversations to have. So, for example, should we be encouraging the carbon offsetting schemes to come to Wales with their many, many megabucks? And the answer to that is, 'Only if we can ensure that what they then do in Wales is beneficial and in line with our policies.'

So, I am not having a scheme, just willy-nilly plants, whatever, all over the place; and also, I'm not having a scheme that means that the people who are offsetting it don't actually do anything about their carbon reduction. So, this has got to be a scheme of last resort, where the operators have already done everything they can do, and where we control—alongside our land managers and farmers and so on—how that money is levered in and what it's used for. That's absolutely a red line for us. So, that's a discussion we're having currently with the UK Government and with a number of operators.

But I would like to get my hands on that money, that's the truth of it, so, it's important for us; we can't do this with just public money alone. So, there is a pot of money there, so we're working very hard to try and do that. But also, we've got a whole group of people working on innovative finance, using public funding to leverage it, helping farmers to leverage money in for themselves, and so on. So, that's a whole new conversation. The Llywydd is going to make me come back another time to do that, so I don't have time right now.

It wouldn't be a biodiversity statement if I didn't mention the lovely, little fluffy red squirrels, for which I am the species champion. As it happens, 10 to 16 October is Red Squirrel Awareness Week, and I just want to say 'thank you' to the Welsh Government for the fact that you have listened to the concerns of the Red Squirrel Survival Trust, the Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust, and others who raised those concerns about the tree-felling licence processes. I can see that amendments are going to be made now to the law through the Agriculture (Wales) Bill, and that's a great thing. So, I want to put on record my thanks to the Welsh Government for making those legislative changes when eventually we have an Act before us.

But one cause of concern that I do have in your statement today was the talk of the connectivity of different biodiversity areas, and it's not because I don't understand the risks of islandisation, if you like, for species, but it is due to the fact that we have islandisation that we still have a red squirrel population in Wales. So, there are sometimes some benefits from islandisation that we need to be aware of. Can you assure me, Minister, that when it comes to the red squirrel as a species, which is endangered here in Wales, that you will be cognisant of the risks of connectivity that connects them to their worst enemy, the grey?

Thank you, Darren. I was really delighted that we were able to listen to that and look at the way that the forestry licences are granted, so I really hope that that comes forward ASAP, myself, as well.

In terms of connectivity, this was the topic of a long discussion at the deep-dive, because, you're absolutely right, for some protected species, for endangered species or whatever iconic species, being connected to their worst enemy is a real problem. But for most species, having connectivity matters, because otherwise you can't mix gene pools and so on. However, it is a big problem for invasive species as well. The grey squirrel is, in fact, an invasive species, as you know, and it's actually a real problem for plant invasive species. So, the bane of mine and Mike's existence, the Japanese knotweed, happily travels down our rivers and all the rest of it. So, there was a long discussion about how we would construct connectivity in a way that took account of these kinds of invasive species and how we might contain them, so I'm absolutely happy to reassure you on that point.

I very much welcome your statement, Minister, and especially the headline commitment to triple peatland restoration. It's fantastic. For the record, I'm a long-standing RSPB member, so I'm especially pleased about what that's going to mean for ground-nesting species like black and red grouse and hen harriers, should they survive. But as well as being a unique habitat, peatlands are critical to our drinking water supply, and 70 per cent of UK drinking water comes from peat bog uplands, which prevent flooding and prevent wildfires too. Like planting trees, peatland restoration is key to carbon sequestration, so there are lots of good outcomes here in terms of our wider climate.

One of the recommendations of this, and it's just been talked about, is that connectivity, so I want to ask you, Minister, whether we're looking at all the opportunities of that connectivity, including the verges along our motorways and other areas, so that we can create those corridors. I know that lots and lots of that is being delivered very locally, but the importance to our pollinators of that connectivity can't be understated.

Absolutely, Joyce. So, on the peatland programme, I was delighted to be able to announce, alongside Lesley, the acceleration of the peatland restoration project. The projects that I've visited already in Wales have been heart-warming, really, amazing in the dedication of the people doing them and actually in the transformation of the landscape. So, I was very, very delighted to do that.

I am planning to lobby the incoming UK Government Minister—I haven't had a chance to meet yet, but I think I'm right in saying I'm meeting him on 24 October. I would like to see peat banned for use in any domestic setting. We don't have the power to do that, and it's one of the things that I'm very concerned about and I'm going to be having a chat with several UK Ministers about. I do think there's a big labelling issue. So, I'm sure that you're a keen gardener, Joyce, and I am as well, but it's really hard to make sure that the plant that you're buying in from the garden centre or a grower isn't in peat. Actually, even if you ask, they won't tell you often, and I think they should be obliged to tell you that that's what the growing medium is. So, I'd like to see the UK Government change the labelling requirements for products like peat.

There will be circumstances in which a local community, for heritage reasons and so on, still cuts peat, but, for the most part, commercial peat cutting should be stopped. So, I'm going to be lobbying the UK Government very heavily on that, but in the meantime, I'm very happy that we're restoring our own peatlands as fast as we can, and this is a step change.

Of course, the reason that we're able to justify it, apart from the fact that it's the right thing to do, is because, actually, if we don't do this, we will not get to net zero by 2050, because of the carbon sequestration that the peatlands bring, as well as all the nature benefits you mentioned, Joyce. I'm just delighted that we've been able, between us, to do this. As I say, it's the right thing to do, and it's the beginning of doing it bigger, better and faster, really.

Then, on the connectivity, Carolyn worked with us to talk with local authorities about 'stop the mow', No Mow May, and all that kind of stuff. One of my big bugbears, I have to say—I'm seriously thinking of doing this, I'm wondering whether I should canvass opinion—is that I do wish these gardening programmes on the telly, which I'm terribly addicted to, would show a few more scruffy gardens with woodpiles, and not cropped grass and decking. [Interruption.] Well, yes, because yours is probably full of invertebrates. I have a big row in my village all the time. My garden is as scruffy as is possible to be—who knew that was going to get trendy, but anyway—but my garden is full of insect life. It's absolutely full of insect life because they've got places to go and stuff to eat and all the rest of it. And consequently it's also full of birds, because they've got things to eat. I have neighbours whose lawns are cut with a nail scissors every Tuesday morning and they don't have any wildlife in their garden at all.

I just think this obsession with neatness has got to be got rid of. That goes for our local authorities and our hedges and edges. I recently wrote to the incoming administration in Monmouth to say that I was sure they hadn't done it especially for a visiting Minister but I was currently following a hedge cutter down the road, which was cutting off every single seed head all the way along. I was not delighted with this as a policy, and I sent a photograph to go with it. So, I'm hoping that that will galvanize them into saying, 'Why are you doing this? Stop doing it.'

There are some places where, for highway safety reasons, you do need to crop back some of the hedges. But, actually, you will know, as well as I do, all of you, that driving down one of those lanes with the most beautiful canopy over the top of it is glorious, isn't it? You get all kinds of wildlife and plants and flowers down there you don't see anywhere else. So, trying to change our public authorities' view, and, frankly, our inveterate gardeners' view, of what looks good is really, really important. I expect you all to go out there and be evangelical about it, and I'm planning to visit you to see if your garden is scruffy enough.

Jenny Rathbone. How scruffy is your garden?

I'm all for scruffiness. As the species champion for the swift, I was delighted that you wrote to all planning authorities to instruct them to ensure that there were swift boxes in new tall buildings and that we're not closing up the swift boxes or cracks in the buildings that are being restored in some way. Have you any idea whether it's had any impact whatsoever on the 50 per cent decline of the swift in the last 15 years? It's really, really devastating, and we face extinction unless we do something about it. 

Secondly, I was very interested that you're going to have a look at fishing gear interactions and bottom dredging for scallops, something Joyce Watson and I feel very strongly about. Why on earth are we allowing that in Welsh waters? When you go to COP 15, will you support Greenpeace's demand made last year for supertrawlers and boats that drag heavy equipment along the sea bottom to be banned from all marine protected areas more than 12 miles off shore? The big question for us is how the hell we would enforce it.

Thanks, Jenny. I don't know the answer to the swift boxes, but I will ask now that you've asked a question. We did that, I can't quite remember, at least one season ago, so we should have some information about the effect. I will certainly ask. 

On the end-of-life fishing gear—you went to visit it as well, didn't you, in Swansea, Mike—we've done some trials, and I was really interested in the one in Swansea. Mike and I share a river between our constituencies; I can't remember whether it was on your side or mine, but anyway. [Interruption.] Yes, it's one of those arguments, isn't it? It was a really interesting project, and it was about not only could we recover this stuff from the sea but how we could recycle it and how we could basically make the fisherfolk some money out of it as well so that it was in their interest to not just let it drift into the sea. We've all seen those terrible pictures of turtles with stuff around them and all the rest of it. I'm really interested in rolling that out. We've got some data from that about how best to do it. That's what we're looking at, and that was very much supported by the deep-dive. 

I'm the species champion for the native oyster, as it happens, so I'm very keen on bottom-growing organisms. Oysters are the canary in the mine actually; they will not grow if the ecosystem isn't good. I'm delighted to say that Swansea bay has been reseeded, having been a protected area for some time. When I was a kid, if you fell in Swansea bay, you had to have your stomach pumped out—I've just shown my age—and now it's a blue flag beach. The EU regulations drove that—I think we're losing sight of that. We were the dirty man of Europe, and it has happened in my lifetime. And I'm not that old. That is a delight, to see those beds reseeded and grow, and we hope in five years that they'll be cropable. The oyster was a staple of working-class diets right around the coast of Wales for many, many years. It's only recently been a rich person's delight. So, I'm really keen on doing that.

On marine, Lesley and I share this responsibility. Just to be clear, she's the decision maker for some of this stuff, and we share it. We are having a look at the whole thing about dredging, fishing, how that's done. I'm very keen, exactly as we say about the farmers, to bring our fisherpeople with us. I don't want them driven out of business and I don't want them not to be able to make a living, but nor do I want them to destroy the biodiversity of the sea. And they don't want to either, because they completely understand that they need to have a sustainable methodology for doing this. So, we have a working group, we've just refreshed it, we've just reappointed people and appointed new people to it, Jenny. And one of the things they'll be working on is this whole business about sustainable fishing, a sustainable fishing industry, what does that look like for Wales, and how on earth would we enforce it if we were doing it. Rhun's not in the Chamber, but you heard him going on, I think it was last week some time, about the vessel out of Bangor. We do have some vessels of that sort around the coast of Wales, so we are looking to see what we can do to use those vessels in the right way.

Thank you, Minister. That brings our proceedings to a close today. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 17:37.