That allows us to move on to item 3, which is the legislative consent motion on the Energy Prices Bill. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NNDM8110 Julie James

To propose that the Senedd:

In accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Energy Prices Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. The majority of the provisions in the Energy Prices Bill are reserved. The provisions within devolved competence with which we are concerned today are about the powers of the Secretary of State to give support for meeting energy costs. The situation with the UK parliamentary timetable on this Bill is clearly out of our hands. This has meant that the Senedd has not been afforded the opportunity to carry out meaningful scrutiny of the memorandum laid yesterday, and of the Bill.

I am pleased, though, that we have had the opportunity to discuss what is a vital measure towards the cost-of-living crisis at a time of national crisis. The Welsh Government has long been calling for more to be done to support domestic and non-domestic customers with rising energy costs. We welcomed the announcement of a two-year package for households, and called for the same scale of support to be made available for non-domestic customers.

Rather than extending the support for non-domestic customers, the Chancellor limited the support for households to just six months. There is no justification for this decision, given the cost of energy is expecting to remain extremely high for a number of years to come. The credible fiscal step needed from the Chancellor was to fund this support through a windfall tax across the energy-producing sector. There is no justification for these windfall gains not to be targeted to fund the necessary measures of support for those that need it most across Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. I will continue to call on the UK Government to put in place a long-term package of support, funded in a progressive way, to help mitigate the impact of high energy prices.

The Bill before us today is important in that it establishes a legislative framework that allows for a scheme to reduce the price of electricity and gas across Great Britain. This is a positive step, as it will insulate customers from the factors pushing energy prices to such high levels. We agree with the principle in the Bill of energy suppliers delivering savings directly via the billing system. This is an efficient recourse to deliver a scheme, as the licensed suppliers have the expertise and systems to implement the policy as set out. We further welcome the requirement on licensed suppliers to become party to the scheme as soon as is practicable.

As mentioned earlier, the majority of the provisions in the Bill are reserved. The provisions within devolved competence with which we are concerned today are primarily about the powers of the Secretary of State to give support for meeting energy costs. Regarding the devolution of constitutional issues, the Bill intrudes upon devolved matters by conferring functions on the Secretary of State in devolved areas. As such, this approach is inconsistent with our principles for consenting to UK Government Bills. I have therefore called on the UK Government to consult on any measures that impact on devolved areas. While I acknowledge that taking action forward on energy prices is a matter of urgency, implementation must be done through effective consultation to ensure that the responsibilities of this Senedd are respected.

It is important to note that we are not transferring powers through this Bill, but the Bill does confer functions on the Secretary of State in devolved areas. As such—

Minister, will you take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

I’m grateful to you, and I’m grateful to you for bringing this forward so quickly. You said in your introduction that the Government hadn’t had sight of this. Just for clarity, because of the matters you’re discussing in terms of transfer of functions to the Secretary of State, can you confirm that the Welsh Government had no sight of this, and that Welsh Government officials had no sight of this legislation prior to it being received and published?

Yes, that’s right. The haste with which the Bill has appeared on the parliamentary timetable has meant that we had no foresight of it.

As I was just going to go on to say, our Cabinet principles do however set out situations where it may be appropriate to make provision in a UK Bill to enable pragmatic solutions to be reached in a timely fashion, while simultaneously respecting the legislative competence of the Senedd through the legislative consent process. These principles are clearly relevant in this case.

I consider the support that this Bill provides as important and we cannot afford to delay energy support to people who desperately need it this winter. Clauses 13 and 14 concentrate on giving the Secretary of State powers to give support to people in meeting energy costs. These clauses also enable the Government to support households and non-domestic customers. While the UK Government intends to deliver most of its support through licensed suppliers of electricity and gas, it has made provision through clause 15 enabling the making of regulations about the role of other bodies, including local authorities, in giving support for energy costs. This is an important provision as it gives a role for other designated bodies to provide support for meeting energy costs. We should not be expected to cover the costs of local authorities in providing this support. I have sought assurances from the Secretary of State that the cost of delivery will be provided in full by the UK Government to implement this in Wales. Secondary legislation will set out the details for these arrangements. I’ve called on the UK Government to ensure that any organisation administering the scheme, including those carrying out this function on behalf of local authorities, will receive all the funding required to carry out the duty.

Clause 19 provides for the Secretary of State to have enabling powers to impose requirements on persons to whom energy price support is provided so that they pass through to benefit the end user. This is crucial in protecting energy consumers from intermediaries who might otherwise fail to pass on this support. Some local authorities may need to contract this work, and this needs to be explicitly permitted to ensure effective delivery of the scheme in Wales. Finally, clause 22 gives the Secretary of State powers to give directions to holders of energy licences in response to the energy crisis or in connection with the Bill or things done under it.

So, Llywydd, in drawing to a conclusion, I do recommend that Members support the legislative consent motion in respect of the energy prices Bill so that the people of Wales can effectively receive financial support with the high energy costs this winter. Diolch.

Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words on this latest LCM. This is the twenty-seventh LCM during the sixth Senedd. Contrast that with the fourth Senedd, when we received just eight LCMs during the whole of that Senedd term.

This is an LCM on a very important Bill, but it was laid just yesterday before the Senedd and we are being asked to vote on it today. Now, this isn’t just a constitutional matter. The constitutional issue is very important, of course—that the Senedd legislates within devolved powers. But it’s more important than that. I don’t trust the Government in Westminster to look after those people who are in need. I don’t trust the Conservatives to do what is right in the long term. This Bill doesn’t include a windfall tax. It doesn’t mean that the energy companies are taking responsibility. What it does is it pushes back onto energy users the responsibility in the long term. Yesterday, it was laid. Today, we are being asked to vote on this matter without any scrutiny at all; no opportunity for committees to scrutinise the LCM, no opportunity to table amendments, no opportunities to raise issues—and there are issues with this Bill—no scrutiny at all, if truth be told. A debate lasting three quarters of an hour—and it doesn't appear as if many Members will take part in this debate—on a Wednesday afternoon. And we know, regardless—perhaps this is the reason why many people aren't contributing—that this LCM will pass, because Labour and the Conservatives always vote hand in hand on the majority of these LCMs.

What I would say is that this is not the way to legislate. We need time for scrutiny if we are to pass good legislation that is fit for purpose—  

Of course, if the Government came forward with legislation, you and the Conservatives would vote against it, and it would go down. I think that this is a means by which to achieve, meaning that it will happen. If you and the Conservatives could start voting for Government legislation, it might be easier to do it. 

The purpose of a legislative Senedd is to pass legislation, Mike. There's no point in us otherwise, and we have to, in the set-up of the Senedd—. The Government has to discuss and debate with the opposition parties if they want their legislation to pass. That is the very purpose of a Senedd, a Parliament, that works in collaboration. 

There are problems with this Bill. A House of Lords committee has raised issues with this Bill; regarding one of the clauses we are being asked to consent to, clause 22, they are firmly of the view that it's inappropriate to give that power to the Secretary of State. It will give the Secretary of State power to override primary legislation, and to overrule the regulator, Ofgem. I’m concerned, Llywydd, that the Senedd today is being asked to consent to an LCM that we know little about, that we have not properly scrutinised, and yet it will be passed on a nod.  

As I said, this isn't just a constitutional issue. It is important that we get legislation like this right to help the people of our nation through a situation that is so appallingly difficult. Thank you. 

Now, this LCM relates to landmark legislation, and it's legislation that needs to be enacted quickly. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has, without doubt, led to the price of oil and gas surging around the world. Thanks to the UK Government, consumers now will be having help with their bills. These new emergency powers will ensure that consumers across the country, from Anglesey to Aberdeen, Conwy to Cornwall, receive help with their energy bills this winter. Without this legislation, businesses and consumers will be left facing increasing financial turmoil. Energy bills were estimated to increase around £6,500 before the UK Government stepped in, and now they're capped at a lower figure of £2,500. This, obviously, will help.

For businesses, this would be a catastrophe. In Aberconwy, I am seeing my hoteliers facing up to a 532 per cent increase in energy bills, and a local butcher—you'll all have had Edwards sausages of Conwy; I hope you have—were confronted with a devastating rise from £129,000 to the latest £782,000, and I understand it's gone significantly up since that, when looking at new tariffs. Thanks to the UK Government, prices for businesses will be capped at £211 per megawatt hour for electricity, and £75 per megawatt for gas. This has reduced the price per megawatt hour for non-domestic customers by nearly 65 per cent for electricity, and 147 per cent for gas. 

Our businesses have faced a turbulent last two years as a result of the pandemic, with many businesses now having to pay off pandemic-era loans and some of them had fallen behind with rent arrears. The UK Government's support will be fundamental in supporting our businesses to continue operating during the forthcoming winter months, and provide much-needed financial relief. And, as business and energy Secretary, the Right Honourable Jacob Rees-Mogg said:

'Businesses and consumers across the UK should pay a fair price for energy.... That is why we have stepped in today with exceptional powers that will not only ensure vital support reaches households and businesses this winter but will transform the United Kingdom into a nation that offers secure, affordable and fairly-priced home-grown energy for all.' 

By supporting clauses 13 and 14, yes, we will be giving power to the Secretary of State, the go-ahead to, for example, provide support for meeting costs related to the use of energy; provide support for meeting costs related to the supply of energy; and enable or encourage the efficient use of energy. So, I see no reason why there needs to be a fuss on this particular LCM. Even Alan Brown MP, SNP, stated on Monday, and I quote:

'I agree that those measures and principles are required for energy security and to be part of net zero transition.'

The Right Honourable Graham Stuart:

'Clause 19 ensures that the support schemes...reach their intended beneficiaries. The requirement to pass on energy price support will help to ensure that tenants and other end users receive the support they need.'

We are facing a global energy crisis that has been exacerbated by Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine. By supporting this LCM, we will be helping people, businesses, charities and the public sector across the UK with their energy bills, with a secure legislative footing. The Minister for climate change, the Right Honourable Graham Stuart has rightly thanked His Majesty's opposition, and other parties, for their constructive engagement so far. So, like yourself, Minister—

Would you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. You and your party colleagues and ourselves, have been very critical of the Welsh Government when it comes to condensing the scrutiny period for the single-use plastics Bill. You were quite rightly vocal that we weren't given enough time; we were only given three, four, five, six weeks to scrutinise that piece of legislation. Why is it therefore that you're happy with no scrutiny at all on this particular piece of legislation and just a matter of hours to read it?

With all due respect, this is emergency legislation. We have a war situation, and that is really, really—. We don't even know what's going to happen now, where things may get even worse than what we're facing at the moment. When faced with a warlike situation that we have, when faced with such an emergency, it is vital that this institution plays a responsible part, and so I have no hesitation whatsoever in supporting the Minister, in saying, 'We need this to go ahead, and we need it to go ahead ASAP'. Diolch.

I can't understand Janet Finch-Saunders's argument that this is emergency legislation; we've known about the spike in energy prices since the end of February, so this is not an emergency.

Now, nobody would argue against the proposal to give immediate relief for the massive spike in energy prices for both households and businesses, but the legislative framework proposed by the UK Government is not a sustainable solution. The idea that this is a landmark piece of legislation is really laughable. We really have to see this through the lens of the net-zero obligations that we have and the climate emergency that is going to descend on all of us. I don't see anything tangible in this proposal to encourage energy generators to invest in more renewable energy, to accelerate the transition away from gas. In fact, I see an attack on renewable energy generators, ensuring that they have to contribute more and don't benefit so much from the contracts that they have entered into. But, as the Minister has said in her explanatory memorandum, we do indeed need energy market reform, including on the way we fund renewables. So, I recognise that you have acknowledged that, but the problem here is that there's nothing to de-couple the cost to consumers of energy from the latest most expensive spot price of gas, which is how Ofgem sets these prices. And there's nothing to encourage people to invest their profits, including the oil and gas companies' profits, into the renewable transition that we all need to make.

So, I wondered if the Minister, in her reply, could tell us what discussions, if any, you've had with the UK Government—clearly, not about this specific piece of legislation, which just landed on your lap—which are aligned to both our and their net-zero obligations. And I thank the Member Rhys ab Owen for highlighting the concern of the House of Lords about section 22, which is the power to overrule Ofgem. The whole thing is really great cause for concern. I'm not planning to vote against it, because I know that households and businesses rely on this, but we've got to have something of a plan for the future, and we can't go on like this. This is a real pull-together just at the final minute—perhaps to distract from other things going on.

The Minister for Climate Change to respond, Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very grateful to Members who've contributed to the debate. I share the Member's concerns about the process that's led us to where we are now, and I do share—as I shared, in fact, for the single-use plastics Bill—the concern about the lack of scrutiny. And that's not something that I welcome either here or at the UK level. But we knew about this the night before. It was introduced on 12 October, so this really isn't any scrutiny at all. We certainly didn't have a draft Bill or anything else.

We do understand the urgency. I don't agree with Janet's summation of the level of urgency, but we do understand that there is a level of urgency in getting support for customers that can be rolled out from November. We would much prefer, though, the United Kingdom Government, as Jenny and others have pointed out, to have realised that this was happening considerably earlier in the year, when everybody else realised it, and have done something, rather than having a ridiculous leadership competition all summer, with the current Prime Minister doing God knows what, instead of stepping up to his responsibilities.

Nevertheless, we are where we are, and if we do not consent to this, then there is a real danger that the people of Wales will be left out from being able to benefit from the scheme. So, I am recommending that we consent to the legislation, although there is considerable reluctance because of the way that the Bill is organised. But, nevertheless, we're not prepared to put ourselves in a position where the people of Wales could not receive the support that the UK Government is proposing; it's very important that they do so.

I just want to correct something that Janet said. There is not a cap of £2,500 on energy. I think it's really important that people don't think that, no matter how much they use, there is somehow a cap. It's actually an average cost, it is not a cap, and it's very important that people understand that. Many people will face bills of more than £2,500 over the winter.

Will you take an intervention?

Of course.

NHS Wales, despite having the funding from UK Government, will still have an energy gap to fill of £100 million, nearly—£90 million to £100 million, I heard last week. Is that true?

Yes, it is indeed true. So, this is a sticking plaster over an enormous wound, and it will cause real problems across public services, as well as for domestic customers. Nevertheless, it's important that what help there is available does get to the people and businesses of Wales, and so we are recommending consent.

I am however—I just want to reiterate, because I think it's very important—calling on the UK Government to consult on any measures that impact on devolved areas. There is a fundamental failure in the current energy market, which this Bill does not fix; the UK Government really must step up to that plate. But, nevertheless, Llywydd, and with a degree of reluctance that you can hear, I do recommend to the Senedd that we agree the LCM, because of the urgent need to get the help to the people of Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Yes, there are objections. And therefore, voting will be deferred until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.