Item 6 this afternoon is the debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, 'Renewable energy in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd.

Motion NDM8102 Llyr Gruffydd

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report: 'Renewable energy in Wales', laid on 26 May 2022.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's an honour to present this report of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee, because at the beginning of the sixth Senedd the committee agreed to undertake a short inquiry into renewable energy, recognising the crucial role of renewables in tackling the climate emergency. Now, we looked at what the Welsh Government is doing and what more needs to be done in order to ramp up renewable energy development in Wales, and when we started our inquiry at the beginning of the year, we could never have predicted the severity of the current global energy crisis or the impact that that would have not only on Wales, but also further afield.

So, as the domestic response to the crisis continues to unfold, we know it could, of course, set us on course to either make or break our commitment to reach net zero by 2050. The package of measures announced by the UK Government last month may provide some reprieve for businesses and households, although, following Monday's announcement, this reprieve may actually be very short lived. But the decision to lift the fracking ban and to accelerate North sea oil and gas production fills those of us who are committed to tackling climate change with dread. These decisions less than a year—less than a year—after the pledges made at COP26 are, quite frankly, shameful.

Action to address the energy crisis and improve domestic energy security must not come at the expense of the planet. Time is rapidly running out to avert a climate catastrophe. The energy and climate crises share a common root: fossil fuels. They also share a common solution: renewable energy. And the case to accelerate renewable energy development, in my view, has never been stronger.

So, our inquiry took place not long after the Welsh Government published the outcome of its deep-dive. The purpose, of course, of the deep-dive was to identify the current barriers to accelerating development and the steps needed to address them. The deep-dive’s recommendations were well received by stakeholders. But there was also a sense that, in some areas, they only scrape the surface.

Many of the barriers identified by the deep-dive are not new, nor are the Welsh Government’s promises of action to address them. The Welsh Government’s 2012 energy strategy set out a range of actions to improve the planning and consenting process and grid infrastructure in Wales as well—key barriers to development. A decade later, it’s making the same promises. As we enter a critical time in the fight against climate change, now more than ever the Welsh Government really needs to knuckle down and deliver on these.

In our report, we made 17 recommendations, all of which the Welsh Government accepted, or at least accepted in principle. At a glance, that's a seemingly positive response. But, on further analysis, of course, it leaves us questioning whether the Welsh Government has truly grasped the urgency with which it needs to act. The response is peppered with terms like 'continuing to work on', 'continuing to consider options', 'ongoing discussions' and 'exploring potential'. Now, of course, we understand that breaking down long-standing barriers won’t happen overnight. But, with development in Wales slowing down, we need to see results from the deep-dive, and we need to see those quickly.

In our report, we called for the Welsh Government to publish a detailed action plan setting out how it intends to take forward the deep-dive’s recommendations, including timelines for delivery. The thinking behind this was to ensure full transparency, and to facilitate and support scrutiny. In response, the Welsh Government committed to reporting to the Senedd biannually on progress towards implementation, which we very much welcome. The first of these reports was published earlier this month, and, as a committee, we’ll be keeping a close eye on progress throughout the remainder of this Senedd.

As I’ve already mentioned, one of the key barriers to development in Wales is, of course, the grid. For over a decade, there have been loud and persistent calls for action from Governments to address grid constraints. Despite this, limited progress has been made, and Wales is a long way off from a grid that's ready and able to support a rapid transition to renewables. We know the Welsh Government has limited levers at its disposal to ensure grid improvements. Control over the regulatory regime governing the grid and access to funding remain, of course, with the UK Government. In its recent report on renewable energy in Wales, the Commons’ Welsh Affairs Committee raised concerns that the UK Government hasn’t yet grasped the severity of grid constraints on this side of the border, and, really, this is nothing short of alarming. The challenges grid constraints pose for development and for Wales’s wider decarbonisation ambitions means this mustn’t be allowed to continue.

Recommendations 6 and 7 reflect our view that the Welsh Government must step up and do more to ensure that Westminster fully understand Wales's current and future grid infrastructure needs. So, Minister, your response to our report refers to your meeting with UK Ministers in June, when you raised issues around the grid. Maybe you can tell us in your response whether you think the penny has dropped and are they actually taking these issues seriously.

We're encouraged by the Welsh Government's future energy grid project, which seeks to proactively influence future grid investment in Wales. The Welsh Government has told us that the action plan produced by the project will set out actions for networks, for Ofgem and the Welsh Government,

'to enable optimal, long-term whole system network planning and operation.'

Now, this all sounds very positive. But, of course, and here's a potential stumbling block, there will also be actions for the UK Government. So, Minister, how confident are you that the UK Government be willing to deliver on those actions? And what happens if it simply refuses to play ball?

Finally on the grid, Minister, you've set up a grid working group to consider whether your initial proposal for a Wales energy systems architect is feasible. Maybe you could tell us when you're expecting to have a definitive answer on this.

Moving on to another key barrier to development: the consenting and licensing regime. Stakeholders told us that a well-resourced, streamlined and efficient consenting regime is essential to support the growth of the renewable energy sector. The current regime, of course, falls short of this. We hear about massive cuts in local planning authorities' budgets, and inadequate resources for NRW, causing long and sometimes costly delays to projects. Of course, concerns over funding for planning authorities and NRW are not new, but if the Welsh Government is to achieve its ambition for renewables, it cannot brush aside these concerns any longer, and recommendation 9 in our report seeks to address this. So, in your recent report, Minister, on implementation of the deep dive's recommendations, you say that further work is needed to review Natural Resources Wales's future resource needs. How long will we have to wait for the outcome of that work, and can we expect to see any increase in NRW's budget next year as a result?

Specifically on planning authorities—two straight questions here. Do they have the necessary resources to cope with demand on their services? And if not, then what are we doing about it? Stakeholders told us that bolstering capacity and resource will only go so far to improve the consenting process. Ultimately, legislative changes are needed. And we are pleased, therefore, that the First Minister announced a Welsh infrastructure consenting Bill in his July legislative statement. In scrutinising the Bill, we'll no doubt be looking to ensure it strikes the right balance between furthering Wales's renewable energy ambitions and also protecting our increasingly fragile environment.

Finally on consenting, the Welsh Government has made clear its position that there should be full devolution of energy consents. So, Minister, is this something that you're actively pursuing with the UK Government? And if so, have there been any glimmers of hope? Maybe you could tell us. 

The final part of our report focuses on opportunities to scale up community and local energy. The growth in renewables we are calling for must benefit communities across Wales. Communities mustn't just have a say in projects, they must be active stakeholders, reaping the social and economic benefits from the transition to renewables. Stakeholders told us, to achieve this, the Welsh Government must do more to incentivise and encourage shared ownership, and recommendations 12 and 13 in our report aim to address this. The Welsh Government has responded positively to these recommendations and, since the publication of our report, has issued guidance on shared ownership. It's also committed to routine monitoring and reporting on the uptake of shared ownership for energy projects, which, of course, again, is something that the committee welcomes.

Finally, I'd like to pick up on recommendation 17. This called for an update on Ynni Cymru, recognising its role in helping to support the expansion of community-owned renewable energy particularly. We had hoped that that recommendation would help answer some questions surrounding Ynni Cymru, but that wasn't the case. Although the Welsh Government accepted our recommendation, the response was simply, 'Watch this space'. So, Minister, we understand that you've established a renewable energy developer interim board to consider proposals for a development company. Are we right in thinking that this company and Ynni Cymru would be one and the same? It would be helpful if you could clarify that for the committee. And is there anything more that you can tell us today about progress towards the creation of Ynni Cymru?

Llywydd, the committee's conclusions are clear. We have to seize the plentiful opportunities that we have here in Wales for renewable energy development. We have to break down the long-standing barriers that are holding back development. And we must do so whilst of course bringing our communities with us in the knowledge that they will reap the benefits. Now, more than ever, we need to focus on the future and not the past, and I hope it's a future of secure and affordable renewable energy, and not destructive fossil fuels.

I thank my committee Chair—our committee Chair—for leading off this debate. The following quote from our cross-party committee report does actually rightly highlight the Welsh Labour Government failure to unleash the renewable energy potential of Wales:

'The Welsh Government’s 2012 energy strategy promised a range of actions to improve the planning and consenting process, and grid infrastructure in Wales, amongst other things. A decade later, the same promises are being made. Now is the time for the Welsh Government to deliver on its promises, and urgently.'

In 2012, Minister, your Government promised to review and improve the planning and consenting regimes associated with development. Yet 10 years later, the Welsh Government should be more—. Oh, sorry. In your deep-dive recommendations, you make the exact same promise, which you refer to in your response to recommendation 2. So, I suppose the question is: if it didn't happen then, what confidence can we have that it's going to happen and you're not just dragging your feet?

Similarly, whilst I welcomed the Welsh Government's consideration of recommendation 3 and implementing the committee report's call for more stretching targets, this should not be a distraction from the direction of travel we must take. We need to reverse the serious decline that we've all seen, and we know it's happening, over recent years. As the Institute for Wales Affairs told us, 'The Welsh Government should be more concerned with delivery and avoid tinkering with targets just for the sake of it.'

I know I stand here too often and hear blame directed at the UK Government. In your response to recommendation 1 in particular, we have to remember it was your Welsh Government that decided to scrap the vital business rate grants for small hydropower schemes, risking the decimation of a viable local industry, and this has affected a number of my farmers in Aberconwy who, in all good faith, took on these schemes, only to find then that they were penalised for doing so. This has left companied like North Wales Hydro Power with a more than 8,000 per cent increase in business rates, described by the industry as being very short-sighted of this Government. Once again, I reiterate my call for the Welsh Government to reverse this hugely damaging decision, and I would welcome, Minister, if you would respond to that particular point, whether you have considered it, and that you may actually look to support those trying to do their bit to help us with renewable energy.

Of course, one area where major change could be enacted at a much faster pace is out at sea. According to RWE Renewables UK, marine energy developments in Welsh waters

'face increased consenting risk and a competitive disadvantage' compared to those elsewhere in the UK. The Crown Estate and Joint Nature Conservation Committee referred to the need to balance accelerating and expanding offshore renewables to achieve net zero, whilst also protecting the marine environment and halting biodiversity decline, alongside the IWA calls for a clearer and more defined consenting process to ensure the timely deployment of marine renewables. I note that you have explained that the identification of marine strategic resource areas should be completed in 2023. So, as RSPB, the Marine Conservation Society and a number of others have made clear here, it is time now to create an even better platform for marine developments and nature, by creating a national marine development plan.

Another key issue—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, sure.

I'm glad to hear you making this case—I think it's an important case to be made—but, of course, what those organisations also have in common is that they support the devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales, which would provide a financial boost for those developments. I presume you will also support that now.

Yes, of course.

Another key issue stifling the expansion of renewable energy is the lack of adequate grid infrastructure, and I have to say, every time I've met with members of the industry, they actually cite this as being a really big issue, a big barrier. You've accepted recommendation 7 only in principle, and at a time when the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee suggests that the UK Government might be unaware of the severity of grid-capacity issues, the Welsh Government must demonstrate greater leadership and proactively engage with UK Government at the very highest level to ensure that Wales's current and future grid infrastructure requirements are fully understood and met. As such, there can be no harm in you raising the crisis—and will you do so, Minister—at the next inter-ministerial group for net zero, energy and climate change.

Similarly, I believe you should heed the calls from the 'North Wales Energy Strategy' to look at establishing microgrid trials, and a good place to start those would be in north Wales. This would be a far better use of taxpayers' money than setting up Government-owned energy companies, which I believe is a misguided idea. It has already been tried in Bristol and it then succeeded in having dire consequences for local taxpayers.

Can you conclude now, please, Janet?

With the Russian war in Ukraine having made almost all constituents realise the need for Wales and the UK to produce more renewable energy, now is the time for the Welsh Government to supercharge some action. I am confident that there are more areas upon which we agree to enable the whole Senedd to co-operate to see Wales achieve its energy potential. Diolch.

First, I'd just like to declare that my partner is an adviser to Bute Energy and I'm a shareholder in Awel Aman Tawe community renewable energy scheme. 

We really do have to step up to the plate here, because the crisis that had just started when we started taking evidence gave us—it's a crisis, but it's also an opportunity. We have to focus on this and really accelerate the pace of change. Ken Skates spoke earlier about his concern for swimming pools in his constituency, and we had a response from the economy Minister, but I really didn't hear anything urgent in his response, although I fully acknowledge that this falls within the remit of the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, who wasn't in the Chamber earlier on today. I just think this is one of the things where we will be completely overtaken by events unless we do something on it now.

So, we have to look at what other parts of the United Kingdom are already doing to safeguard their swimming pools. For example, one of the leaders in this is Narberth Energy, which has one of the oldest renewable-heated community pools in the UK. Swim Narberth is a community-owned pool, run for the benefit of its local community, supported by Narberth Energy, a community benefit society, which organised a share offer to raise funds to install a 200 kW biomass boiler and a 50 kW solar photovoltaic array back in 2015. Well done them for having the prescience to do that, because so many other swimming pools are still reliant on gas for heating their pools, and I really fear for them all. We cannot have the next generation not being able to swim because they simply haven't got safe facilities to learn how to do it.

So, there are multiple other excellent examples of how to do it. Swimming pools tend to be stand-alone buildings with nice big roofs, which are bound to be able to have south-facing arrays of solar panels on them. They also tend to be buildings that have sufficient space for air or ground-source heat pumps and yet I wonder how many of these have already happened in Wales. In Scotland, for example, we've got roof and wall insulation and heat recovery units in a swimming pool in Forres in Scotland, complementing the solar array they've also got, and making for an efficient pool filtration system. These are the most obvious things that need to happen if we're going to save our swimming pools. In Ayrshire, the only open-air freshwater pool in Scotland is heated using ground-source heat pumps, part funded by ScottishPower's green energy trust. This was reopened in 2017, just using these ground-source heat pumps. Similarly, in Skipton, there's a swimming pool using air-source heat pumps for both of their pools and the showers, as well as heat recovery technology, and solar PVs are already on the site. In Oxford, you've got the largest outdoor swimming pool in the UK using water-source heat pumps. These really are things that we need to look at as a matter of urgency or we will simply lose all our pools.

We clearly also need to fix the grid—which we've talked about, and which has been mentioned already by previous speakers—but we also need to insist that people who are putting tiles on their roofs are thinking about solar panels at the same time. I cannot believe the number of people in my constituency who are fixing their roofs while the sun is still shining but haven't even considered adding solar arrays onto their south-facing roof at the same time, because obviously, a lot of the cost is involved in just putting up the scaffolding and getting the workmen on site. So, we really have to start thinking differently about this. This crisis has to be an opportunity to look at everything that we're doing. We need to ensure that we have solar panels on all our south-facing roofs with batteries to go with them, so that people can use the energy from the solar power when they actually need it, which is when they come home in the evening and the sun has gone down. We have to change completely.

Jenny, can you conclude now, please? Thank you. Delyth Jewell.

Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. This debate is exceptionally timely. The cost-of-living crisis is causing real pain to ordinary people on a day-to-day basis, as is raised in the Senedd, and at a time of climate and nature emergencies and of course increasing international conflict. In several ways, these challenges that face our planet, challenges that affect everyone, albeit unequally, are all underlined by a common theme, namely energy. The climate emergency has been caused in many ways by human behaviour through the unsustainable use of energy—in other words, the burning of fossil fuels since the industrial revolution. The cost-of-living crisis has intensified as a result of high energy bills, and the war in Ukraine, along with the international community's response to that war, is characterised by conflict based on energy supply.

Thousands upon thousands of households here are facing appalling conditions over the winter, and the new Chancellor in Westminster is cutting the period during which support will be available. Businesses along with people's health and well-being are all in the balance, and to make things worse, there is a warning of blackouts on the coldest days. History, Deputy Presiding Officer, is repeating itself. The major powers in global politics are in conflict; there are tensions between the world's major players, and at home, we are facing a domestic crisis. As has been said already, Wales is in a particularly vulnerable position as a result of our housing stock that is so energy inefficient, and as a result of the poverty that has blighted our communities for decades. Our people will now experience these crises with particular severity.

That picture, Dirprwy Lywydd, I know is bleak, but I think what keeps coming up in this debate is that it need not be that way. Wales is a net exporter of energy and the potential for renewable energy development is enormous. The current crises just make the case for this shift all the more urgent. Beyond the application of energy necessities like electricity, warmth, food production, transport, the question of control over energy resources has also been brought into sharper focus in recent years. I note that Alun Davies has made this point. From questions surrounding a lack of necessity, over powers over the grid, over larger energy projects, over the Crown Estate in Wales, all of these factors have seriously hampered our ability to deliver Wales's energy needs, to respond to climate change and reduce our dependency on fossil fuels.

Whenever we have these debates, the point is made that Wales's history was one, in so many ways, that was characterised by exploitation and poverty. Those things defined the era of coal; we have to make sure that the future is different. The committee was clear, as am I, that the Welsh Government can do more to boost renewable energy production in Wales, to make sure that the control over our own energy system is stronger. Limited progress has been made. Wales is a long way off still, though, from a grid that is ready and able to support a rapid transition to renewables. We're no closer to devolved powers over the Crown Estate. I would urge the Welsh Government to show that increased ambition, because of all of these crises that are facing us, to do all it can to ensure that Wales's current and future grid infrastructure requirements are fully met. When we have a Government response to the debate, it would be really useful to have an update on any developments that have come about in terms of devolving powers over the Crown Estate to Wales.

I know that we are all alive to the need to respond to both the climate and nature crises in ways that are interlinked, and this is something that has certainly come up in our evidence as well. I'll end with this, Dirprwy Lywydd. We need to balance the need to accelerate and expand offshore renewables and achieving net zero as soon as we can with protecting marine environments and halting biodiversity decline. So, it would be good if we could have some detail on this, because all of these crises are interlinked in the way that they're hitting us, but the way that we need to respond to them as much as possible needs to be interlinked as well. Diolch yn fawr.

Reading through the report of the committee—I'm very grateful to the Chair of the committee for his introduction this afternoon—and reading through the Government response, my overwhelming feeling was that there wasn't a great deal of difference between the two, that there's a great deal of shared ground, particularly in terms of ambition and vision, between both the Government and the committee. That, of course, is something to be welcomed. However, in reading through both, I also felt that both were somewhat unsatisfactory in different ways. Let me explain why I think that.

If I look back over the period of devolved Government in Wales, there are things that we've done very, very well, and there are other things where we've done less well, and that's the nature of governance, of course. I think energy is one of those policy areas where we haven't succeeded over the last two decades or so, and I believe it's something where we can learn lessons. I'm glad that the First Minister has taken his seat for this debate, because I'm going to congratulate him on a decision that he made—he looks even more worried now. [Laughter.] He is beginning to wish he'd gone for a cup of coffee.

But when I was an energy Minister some years ago, I was one of three energy Ministers in the Cabinet. There was myself, there was the economy Minister and the First Minister at the time. All had responsibility for energy, and it would surprise nobody in this Chamber or elsewhere that the three of us together achieved nothing, that we didn't deliver, because we had a fragmented approach, and we had Ministers competing, if you like, with each other, rather than working together. So, I think bringing together the responsibility under a single Minister and changing the machinery of Government to reflect that is an important decision to make, and it's an important way of driving forward policy. I welcome the commitment that the Minister herself has made to this. I accept the points that she's made in an earlier debate, and have been made elsewhere, about the unsatisfactory nature of the settlement, as well. I won't seek to rehearse those arguments again this afternoon.

But it appears to me, given where we are and given the nature of today's settlement, that there are two roles that, broadly, the Welsh Government can play in energy policy. The first is a more passive role in terms of creating a consenting and planning regime that will enable others to take decisions that are mainly commercially driven.

Do you believe, though, that, as well as it being a Government responsibility—? What can the Government do to empower more people to take some responsibility? The reason I ask this question is that so many people say to me, 'Oh, I'd love solar panels, but I haven't a clue how to go about it', or 'I'd love to put a heat pump in, I have no idea what I'm doing.' Is there a way that Government could actually, as we move forward, try and empower people to take responsibility themselves, and for those who wish to go out and buy these things to help, if it's only to heat their own home, or feed in to a grid, that that could be encouraged?

The Member for Aberconwy makes my second point for me.

The first role potentially for Government is more of a passive role; it provides the environment by which other people can take decisions and make investments. The second role, I think, is a far more interesting role. The way I framed the question, of course, provides the answer to where I'm standing, and that's an active driver of change. The public sector—we had this debate yesterday over public spending, to some extent—can change the terms of how we do things in our society. I very much very welcome some of the decisions that are being taken that will enable us to deliver an energy policy that is focused on local control, local management and on a distributed form.

Clearly, we need the major grid structures and we need to be able to deliver base-load supply—I understand all of that—but we also have to understand that Ofgem is another failed regulator. One of the issues we've got—. This is where I disagreed with the Blair Government that ownership doesn't matter and you can achieve everything by regulation. I believe ownership does matter. I believe not just the ethos of a public company, but also the ability of a public company to deliver for a public good, is actually an important point for all of us.

So, what I would like to see the Welsh Government focusing on—and the Government does say this in parts of its response—is more localised energy production and generation. Now, how do we do that? How do we de-risk that? How do we provide the finance that would enable, for example, reformed local government to invest in local energy companies, or co-operative and collaborative energy supply opportunities? I believe that's a very, very fascinating debate that we can have. And I would beg the Minister—I can see my time is drawing to a close—

You have extra time, as you took an intervention. 

I will take up every second of that generous offer. Let us not go down the route—. I've seen proposals in my own constituency where turbines of 180m, 650 ft, are being proposed within 1 km of some settlements. That's the size of the valley sides in my constituency. It's a wholly inappropriate development, and I believe that that is going to undermine support for the wider, more important issues of renewables.

The point I'll complete on is this: in both the response from the Government and the report from the committee, we didn't see the use of any international examples. And do you know, Deputy Presiding Officer, it might be an issue for yourselves as well; in my time in this place, I've seen us think less of other places. I've seen us think less of how we can learn lessons from elsewhere. I was delighted to see the Deputy Minister for sport supporting the women's rugby team in New Zealand, and meeting sports organisations and cultural organisations there. I think it's really important that we do that. We should always support people who take on that role. But how do we learn lessons from, say, France or Germany, from Scotland, from the United States, from Canada, about delivering locally based and locally rooted energy generation? I believe that there are opportunities there for us to learn and apply those lessons in Wales, and I hope that both the Senedd and the Government will not be shy about seeking out those international examples and seeking to apply them here in Wales.

I actually think that, together, there is a sense of joint venture in this place, between the Government and the Senedd, and I think, if we work together on these matters, we can achieve great things for the future. I'm grateful. Thank you very much.

I'm pleased to see that the lack of grid capacity has been recognised in recommendation 6 and 7. It's the biggest barrier to the uptake of renewables within north Wales. There's no shortage of households that wish to have renewable energy, such as solar PV and air-source heat pumps, but getting to the grid—the distribution network operator installing it—is causing so many issues. I've been told that SP Energy Networks are particularly difficult to get anything of scale accepted, and there seems to be very little appetite for renewables to be connected to their grid in north Wales. They have left applications without an answer for as long as six months, adding delays and complications to projects.

Flintshire council has been very proactive in trying to use renewable energy on social housing to assist tenants, including sheltered accommodation. They wanted to install 300 solar PV systems a year, but are often refused permissions to install. Another case is one in Saltney, where, three years, ago the district network operator request was submitted for the installation of 100 solar PV systems, which was refused. The reason given was that the local network needed upgrading. We’re also three years on now, and nothing by way of an upgrade has been planned. With the increase in fuel bills over the period, we have a situation where 103 households are not receiving the benefits that solar panels would bring.

Shortly after the original application, Flintshire County Council received a quotation of £33,000 for the upgrade to be carried out, which understandably was not taken up because they couldn’t afford it. It does not seem right that the district network operator should need paying to upgrade their own network when they’re getting free electricity when other DNOs are saying that they do not need payment. So, that needs balancing out, really—why Scottish Power are saying that they do, and others do not. Another incident with north Wales social housing is where an apartment block wanted to install 54 air-source heat pumps offset by solar power, and again, this was refused by SP Energy Networks. However, they were told that they would be able to put in costly electric storage heaters, which was a far less desirable outcome, because they understood that technology, basically. So I think they’ve got a lack of understanding of technology. These are just examples of many that have been relayed back to me.

I think the key issue is that we’re never going to reach the proposed Welsh Government targets without a radical upgrade of the grid infrastructure and the understanding of these network providers. So, I’d be grateful if the Minister could expand on Welsh Government’s response to these recommendations in particular, as they are so essential to expanding renewable energy production, especially in rural areas.

I’m also very concerned that the Prime Minister does not seem to believe in climate change and the nature emergency, and wants to invest in fossil fuels and fracking—flying in the face is the ban on fracking not being lifted until it is categorically proved that it does not cause tremors. Geology experts are still unable to do this, yet they still want to go ahead with it, which is really concerning.

I was so pleased to see the building of the new engineering unit in Coleg Llandrillo in Rhyl, thanks to Welsh Government funding. They’re building a leading wind turbine energy skill centre there, which is fantastic. So they will be leading on upskilling engineering apprentices in north Wales, but also they’re hoping to have the contract for the north-west of England as well to make that provision in north Wales, which is fantastic. Thank you.

I would like to make a few points on marine wind energy developments in the future with particular reference to recommendation 11, which asks for clarity as to what steps the Welsh Government would take to streamline the process for developing the Celtic sea renewable energy projects in future years. I congratulate the committee for the work that’s gone into this report, and which touches upon so many important areas such as this one.

I read in the Government’s response that, whilst they accept this recommendation, they are looking at the licensing and consent processes, which are very important, and I welcome that. I’m pleased to see a reference to the fact that discussions are ongoing with the Crown Estate, which is crucially important, and I echo the need to devolve responsibility for the Crown Estate to Wales.

But, I would like to ask the Minister about the need also to ensure the development of that broader infrastructure that can allow us to benefit economically from renewable energy. I do think that that should be a priority, and I’m very keen—the Minister won’t be surprised to hear that—on developing the port of Holyhead as a port to serve the next generation of wind energy projects off the Welsh coast. I do think that there’s a very real opportunity here to create jobs, to attract investment and to give long-term sustainable use to the old Anglesey Aluminium site, not only as a service centre for the next generation of windfarms, but also for production, too. So, I would welcome hearing from the Minister what kind of support and what kind of commitment she's willing to give to try and deliver the potential of the port of Holyhead in that way.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate today, and I very much thank the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee for their very valuable report. The crisis that the Chair identified in his foreword has clearly deepened, as he said, and the cost-of-living crisis perpetuated by the absolutely shambolic UK Government's economic mismanagement is something that we've already debated a number of times just today. I keep having to check my phone to see who the Minister responsible is. 

But, the UK Government has belatedly introduced some help with energy costs, but the certainty around those measures has evaporated as one of the slew of u-turns that followed the Tories' shambolic budget last month, as we debated just earlier. Energy costs are still considerably higher than last winter, even with that help. Many households and businesses are not being offered the help that they need, and we now have higher interest rates and a weaker pound, fuelling inflation to levels not seen since the 1980s and the last majority Conservative Government.  

The UK has seen some of the biggest increases in energy costs, despite a relatively limited direct reliance on gas supplies from Russia, and that's directly because of the failure of the UK Government to reform the UK energy system over the last decade. The failure does risk locking in fossil fuel dependency, reflected in the desperate announcements by the UK Government on its intention to expand new oil and gas licences in the North sea, and to facilitate new fracking in England. Just to reiterate once more, we are vehemently opposed to both of these measures, and our policies will continue to use all powers available to us to oppose any new extraction in Wales. 

The current system has allowed major businesses in the energy sector to generate unprecedented windfall profits, and it is the windfall gains across the whole energy sector that the UK Government should be targeting to fund the support for households and businesses. It's difficult to fathom what's possessed the UK Government to rule out taxing windfall profits in the oil and gas sectors. I can't fathom whether it's ideology or that they've just painted themselves into a political corner, and now don't know how to get out.

Given the recent u-turns and the dismal state of public finances as a direct result of decisions they've made, I really do hope that the UK Government will urgently reconsider its position on the extraction of fossil fuels, because, Deputy Llywydd, this crisis is not an excuse for scaling back ambitions for a fairer, greener energy system. The crisis, in fact, demands that we take further action to address the failings of the last decade, while we do everything in our power to protect the most vulnerable from this Tory economic turmoil. 

The renewable energy deep-dive was set up to identify opportunities and address the barriers that risk our ambition for Wales to at least meet our own energy needs from renewable sources, although obviously we'd very much like to be a net exporter as well. And I'm extremely grateful to members of the deep-dive for their considered work, and for their continued support as we implement the recommendations. 

With a clear ambition in place, we will be consulting on revised renewable energy targets later this year, in line with our commitments, as set out it in 'Net Zero Wales'. The committee's report rightly recognises the role that targets can have to help bring greater clarity to industry, stakeholders and to all citizens on the pathway to a net-zero energy system. We absolutely acknowledge that Wales has an abundance of natural resources that mean we are capable of generating energy to meet demand elsewhere. But, if we are to utilise our resources, we must do so in a way that protects our natural heritage and retains as much benefit and value in Wales as possible, sharing the costs and rewards fairly, as a large number of Members have commented on during this debate. 

We've already delivered on a number of commitments from the deep-dive; we've published our guidance on ownership to support the discussions between developers and communities to meet our local and community ownership ambitions; we have scaled up the resources to Community Energy Wales and our funding available through the Welsh Government energy service to provide community renewable energy projects; and we continue to progress work on a publicly owned renewable energy developer, committed to in 'Net Zero Wales'.

I just note, Janet, from your contribution your scepticism about a state-owned company for the UK or for Wales, but, of course, the grid is delivered by Scottish Power in north Wales, and the irony of what you think of as a private company being owned by a different country—the same for energy, the same for rail, the same for what you call the private sector—I really do wish that you would get a grip and understand that those countries benefit from our Government's lack of an ambition for its own people. We do not share that lack of ambition. We will be bringing forward details on our plans for a large-scale publicly owned developer next week, and how we will develop new relationships with the private sector to deliver that goal. 

We want to support a thriving private renewable energy sector that delivers the economic and social value that investment can bring to Wales. We will work in partnership, where we have a shared vision for how investment will directly benefit the people of Wales. I must say at this point, Rhun, that I had a very enjoyable trip out to Gwynt y Môr, but we had a very constructive discussion with a developer there about how we can get community energy arrangements embedded in that system, and that will improve the whole system right across north Wales. We must absolutely ensure that the supply streams, both for the building and the operational stages of those private sector developments—though, again, 'private sector' in inverted commas—come to Wales, so I'm very determined to do that. But, we are also determined to drive a community ownership programme into those private developments by way of a large-scale developer.

Our consenting and planning and licensing arrangements are there to support appropriate developments and to avoid unacceptable impacts on people and the environment. We need to make sure that the processes that determine applications are fit for purpose and do not delay decisions unnecessarily, but also do not impact unnecessarily on our environment. Our programme of work to streamline consent processes and ensure that there are sufficient resources available to support developers is well under way. We'll be setting out the conclusions of the independent review of marine consenting arrangements by the end of this year, and as many Members have commented, we are committed to an infrastructure consenting Bill to be introduced before the end of next year.

A key part of the infrastructure that we need is sufficient grid capacity, as pretty much everyone has acknowledged. The current system, responsibility for which is reserved to UK Government, is clearly not fit for purpose. Rather tragically, and just before the real shambles that ensued over the border, I had just spoken to the then Minister, Greg Hands, and they had finally accepted the need for a planned grid and a higher network system operator. I spoke with the head of the National Infrastructure Commission for the UK this morning, to emphasise the fact that we want that commitment to stay. Contact with the current UK Government is impossible, it seems to me, because they don't stay in post long enough for you to be able to get their address. But if we do ever get any sense of who is responsible for it, we will be pushing that. I do have an inter-ministerial group scheduled for Monday. It was to be in person in Edinburgh; it's now virtual, because we do not know who the UK Government Minister coming to it is. But we will be pushing the continuation of the commitment to a higher network system operator and a planned grid, because that is what we need. We have been pushing that for the last I don't know how long; I've been talking about this for 40 years just personally. How we can have a grid, driven by the market, in circumstances where there is no functioning market, I mean, just beggars belief. So, we will be pushing for that. We're not just hoping for the UK Government, though, to take that forward; we have a future grid Wales project in Wales, so we'll be taking the lead in that. We're taking a strategic approach to grid infrastructure, as we deliver the empirical evidence for what the grid needs are in Wales, to inform the needs of a system operator.

The deep-dive recognised the continued need for a strategic approach for Wales in the recommendation for that system architect; we see that as one component in the wider set of reforms needed at UK level, to regulate the energy system to become a more dynamic, efficient and sustainable area. We are working separately [Interruption.]—I will not have time now, I've run out—with NRW on the budgets and the planning infrastructure Bill, and I just want to say to Janet that I was delighted to see that she supported the devolution of the Crown Estates, and I look forward to being copied into her letter to the Minister.

On a point of order—

It's not a point of order, but I will allow you to make an intervention, if you want.

Thank you very much, and thank you for taking the intervention. I didn't quite hear what Alun said. I didn't honestly say that I supported it; I didn't mean that, anyway.

You're retracting it. Another u-turn by the Conservatives, right here on the floor. [Laughter.]

I think the Member has indicated and put the record straight, so—.

Thank you.

She wants the money to stay in the—[Inaudible.]

Minister.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I've very much run out of time now, although I have taken a number of interventions. In the short term available, I've briefly set out some of the key actions we've taken in line with the committee's recommendations. We published a progress report for all the recommendations of the deep-dive, as was acknowledged by the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee. We need collective action across a number of areas in Wales—action by businesses, in communities, and those actions that require the UK Government to take its share of responsibility. We need urgent action to fix the broken market, to protect consumers this winter and to rapidly move away from fossil fuels and build a resilient and sustainable net-zero energy system. And I'll finish just by thanking once more the committee for its valuable work. Diolch.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who's contributed. I won't rehearse everything that everyone has said; there's a danger of doing that in closing a debate like this, but I just want to pick up on some of the main themes. Certainly, the messages on licensing and permissions are coming through clearly. Just on marine licensing, I am aware that, in England, the Government is committed to reducing the timetable for licensing to 12 months. We know of examples in Scotland where the Government there have licensed major projects within 11 months. So, we are looking now to the Welsh Government to see exactly where Wales is in this regard, and I was pleased to hear that there will be an announcement on some work that's been done at the end of the year. But, again, it's the end of the year—there's a risk that we're missing out on opportunities here and that the major opportunities taken by other nations around us will have been lost by the time we get to the point where we are ready.

I was going to welcome the statement by the Conservative spokesperson that they are now in favour of the devolution of the Crown Estate. She has now explained that they are not in favour of that. It's clear that u-turns are a characteristic that the Conservatives are very proud of and that's an even quicker u-turn than some of those carried out by Liz Truss in these past weeks. But, there we are, I don't know, some policy—. Well, you can explain the rationale behind your policy and where you stand on that some other time.

There were other contributions that referred to the importance of taking control of the energy future that we want in Wales, rather than others doing that on our behalf, because we see the legacy in terms of coal and other contexts. But, simultaneously, of course, balancing the expansion of renewable energy with halting the decline of biodiversity is something that we're all painfully aware of.

Alun Davies said that, in reality, there isn't a great deal of difference between what the committee is saying and what the Government is saying. The great frustration is that the committee and predecessor committees have been saying this for 10 years and we still have to make the same points. And I do accept that many of those elements are beyond the control of the Welsh Government, and we recognise that. But there is a feeling of joint venture, which Alun mentioned, which I think is something that we should be building upon. But also the real joint venture we want to see is between the Welsh Government and the UK Government in order to unlock the potential that we want to see.

Thank you to Rhun for making specific reference to infrastructure, which is central to what drives much of the vision, and the port of Holyhead—as a regional Member, I can say I agree 100 per cent. As committee chair, I would say that there are ports across Wales that we want to see benefiting from this. But, of course, all of the added value that will come in light of the supply chains and so on—well, that is the goal, isn't it? We want to deliver all the benefits—not just the decarbonisation, but also the economic and social benefits that will emerge. So, delivering one of those isn't success; we have to deliver on all of those fronts.

And the Minister is right, of course, that any kind of assurance in the sector in the climate we find ourselves in with the current state of the UK Government is very challenging indeed. And there are reports that the vote on fracking is going to be some sort of vote of confidence in the Prime Minister. Well, that might be the case, but, for me, more importantly, a vote like that would be a vote of confidence, or lack of confidence, in future generations. Let's forget about individuals, but it would be very significant and it would be a clear statement from the direction of the UK Government that climate change is something that is no longer a priority, and that, as I was saying, less than 12 months since the COP summit.

So, thank you all for your contributions. This is a piece of work that will continue for the committee. We will continue to scrutinise Government in this context and we will continue to be critical when necessary, but also to be supportive in order to deliver our objectives. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see any objections. So, the motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.