The next item is a second statement by the Minister for Climate Change, on energy policy. I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As global leaders meet in Egypt for COP27, I am pleased to be able to update Members on how we will continue to lead the transition from fossil fuels to an energy system based on renewables.

While messages from the UK Government have been confusing and contradictory, we have been clear and consistent. We will keep fossil fuels in the ground, and we will continue to apply all the levers at our disposable to phase out the extraction of fossil fuels in Wales. We will build a flexible, smart, renewables-based energy system. And we will ensure our households, businesses and communities benefit from the transition with increased energy security and less exposure for customers to the global price of fossil fuels. I've recently published our update on implementing recommendations from the renewable energy deep dive and announced the creation of a publicly owned energy developer. Today, I want to update Members on our policy on fossil fuel use in power generation and industrial installations. I will also set out our position on hydrogen and carbon capture, utilisation and storage.

Wales hosts a disproportionately large amount of gas-fired power plants supplying the electricity grid. The Climate Change Committee has been clear in their advice that we need to decarbonise this sector by 2035. Our approach will be two pronged. As set out in 'Net Zero Wales', we see no role for new fossil-fuelled power plant in Wales and, following publication of a position statement, this policy can take effect through the planning regime. Secondly, we must address the emissions from combusting fossil fuels at existing power stations, including energy-from-waste plants and plants within industrial sites. Collectively, these accounted for a third of all Wales's greenhouse gas emissions in 2020.

We issued a joint call for evidence on decarbonisation readiness with the UK Government last year. While we have been co-operating with the UK Government on policy development, we do not think their planned approach will go far enough to bring forward the action we need in Wales. The regulation of power stations and other industrial installations through the existing environmental permitting regime does not explicitly drive the transition to net zero. This is an issue recognised by the European Union, which is also looking into reform of its regime to align to the European Union's net-zero agenda. Therefore, we will be working with Natural Resources Wales on options development to explicitly ensure the environmental permitting regime supports net-zero objectives, alongside other strategic environmental priorities. This will complement other measures, such as carbon pricing implemented through the UK emissions trading scheme. I will be publishing a position statement on combustion of fossil fuels for power and our Government response to the call for evidence on decarbonisation readiness before the end of the year.

We recognise the need for a just transition and know that, for some sectors, a move from fossil fuels poses significant challenges. For some, hydrogen may provide one of the few ways to decarbonise heavy industry through fuel switching, and to reduce emissions in hard-to-abate modes of transportation, notably in heavy goods vehicles, aviation and shipping. There is also considerable potential to use hydrogen as a storage medium for renewable energy, in particular if it were possible to capture excess energy production. It may also have a role as a replacement for natural gas in heating solutions.

Uncertainties remain over the economic sectors in which hydrogen will play the greatest role, and the overall scale and cost of its application in the longer term. We continue to engage with industry on the available evidence and are assessing opportunities for Wales to use hydrogen in its decarbonisation pathway and to support economic development. Hydrogen production methods vary, as do the emissions associated with them. Green hydrogen produced from renewable electricity via electrolysis has a very low impact on greenhouse gas emissions during its operation, and is potentially economically attractive if it can make use of the excess electricity generated from wind generation.

This is our preferred production method, and we do need to set the ambition for all hydrogen to be produced from renewable sources in the longer term. However, in order to support the decarbonisation of industry in Wales, we understand we may need to move through a phase of using blue hydrogen produced by fossil fuels. But this needs to be a manged transition and we will need to put steps in place, including through our permitting regime, to encourage as rapid a transition as technology and cost will allow.

Deputy Llywydd, the final area I want to outline our plans on relates to carbon capture, utilisation and storage. This is a technology that has long been in development globally, largely funded by governments with the aim of bringing forward the technology for emission reduction purposes and developing exportable expertise. Nevertheless, deployment is limited, regulatory mechanisms are yet to be fully developed, and significant risks remain, which will need to be addressed if the technology is to be successfully deployed at any scale and with the confidence of the public.

Despite this, international studies undertaken by organisations including the Climate Change Committee, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and the International Energy Agency have consistently concluded that CCUS, as it is known, is likely to be a key part of the pathway to reducing emissions at lowest cost, with a key area for CCUS deployment in heavy industry. The Climate Change Committee considers all currently credible pathways through which the UK could reach net-zero emissions domestically and involve a significant role for CCUS, especially for industry and greenhouse gas recovery. They are also clear that CCUS is not a silver bullet and that every attempt must be made to prevent the greenhouse gases being generated in the first instance.

Deputy Llywydd, we must avoid passing on environmental risk and liability to future generations. We have been working for some time with industry in Wales to understand their options and challenges. We are also working to understand the potential role of Ministers by developing a regulatory route map for CCUS in Wales. Around 25 per cent of industrial emissions in Wales are non-combustion process emissions, either from chemical or physical reactions, and these can't be avoided by switching to alternative fuels. Currently, carbon capture, utilisation and storage offers a potential decarbonisation pathway for these industries.

We need to ensure that CCUS is deployed only where other options for decarbonisation have been explored and justifiably discounted. We will do so through the introduction of an energy and carbon hierarchy. We will also explore limits to deployment as a way of managing environmental and financial risks, and supporting the well-being of people living in Wales now and in the future. Crucially, we will support industry across Wales that, after exhausting the other options in the hierarchy, have only CCUS as a possible solution to decarbonise. We will stand with them in their attempts to secure business models and funding from the UK Government, in order to ensure a just transition to net zero.

We will be consulting publicly on policy position statements and next steps on hydrogen and CCUS in the spring. In the meantime, we will work with Net Zero Industry Wales to support transition for Welsh businesses and secure good quality jobs for the future within a thriving, low-carbon industrial base. Diolch.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. I would like to refer to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee's report on renewable energy in Wales, published in May 2022, and its comments on the serious risk of your Government failing to meet its own renewable energy targets. The committee stressed how barriers to renewable energy development were not new, nor was the Welsh Government's promise of action to address them. The report further stated how the Welsh Government was making the same promises now as it did back in 2012's energy strategy.

After a decade of these repeated promises, we now need concrete steps towards improvement. You may claim that the UK Government is not clear and consistent, but I can confirm that you have also been consistent in failing to deliver the changes we need to ensure that Wales has a renewable energy revolution. So, will you explain what actions you're taking to remove barriers to renewable energy in Wales? I strongly believe that nuclear power is absolutely vital to meeting our climate change commitments, and I endorse and support the comments by the fantastic Member of Parliament for Ynys Môn in the work that she has done trying to bring nuclear to Ynys Môn. 

At a time of great international uncertainty in the energy market, made worse by Putin's appalling war against Ukraine, it's vital that we do not close off avenues to generating clean, home-grown, reliable power. Therefore, I welcome the UK Government's commitment to nuclear energy throughout the Nuclear Energy (Financing) Act 2022, and I would urge the Welsh Government to commit here today to supporting the Wylfa and Trawsfynydd sites. For my constituents in Aberconwy—[Interruption.] Do you want to intervene?

First of all, there are no interventions in statements. And secondly, can all Members give the opportunity to the Member to ask her questions, please?

Thank you. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. For my constituents in Aberconwy, a small modular reactor site would mean an investment of £200 million and 200 direct jobs, and it would make us a leader in high-skilled green industry. So, in order to improve our future renewable energy capacity, will you, Minister, put party politics aside, and commit to supporting nuclear power across sites such as Trawsfynydd, so that we can turbocharge—

I think they have, haven't they?

Well, they might have. I’d love to know your exact position.

Anyway, of course, this statement today is taking place across the backdrop of the COP27 summit, in which world leaders, including our own Prime Minister, will be there to discuss how we can all move together to address these challenges. We can only take meaningful action on climate change, including clamping down on big polluters, if the international community works together. So, will the Welsh Government reach out and make sure that all levels of Government are working together to address business and consumer concerns and demonstrate a clear road map towards delivering more renewable power?

You know that I’m also very supportive of hydrogen, and I welcome again the UK Conservative Government’s commitment to establish a hydrogen hub in Holyhead. Will you replicate the hydrogen village policy that is now being pursued elsewhere in the UK? There are times when it’s convenient for this Welsh Government to follow the lead of the UK Government, as is the case in what I will be speaking about later, but in other instances, you tend to go your own way for the sake of going your own way, and this is at the cost of my residents in Aberconwy and Wales as a whole. It’s time that we actually got on with it now. There are so many different technologies coming to the fore in green technology that will provide good, highly skilled, highly paid jobs for people across Wales. At some stage, Minister, we have to—well, you have to—grasp this nettle. Diolch.

Well, Janet, as always, I really feel the need to start by reminding you that you’re a Tory, and that the Tory Government is the one that removed the investment from Wylfa. Maybe we should just buy you a little history of the last 15 years and give it to your researcher, because I feel it’s sorely needed, quite frankly.

And the other thing: I have to admire your sheer brass neck. I don’t know whether you've got really good polish for it. Maybe you should seriously consider doing stand-up, because that was hilarious. First of all, we’re already doing all the things you called on us to do. No doubt you’ll now tweet to say we’re doing the things you’re calling on us to do, rather than doing them at your behest, because we’re already doing every single thing you asked us to do. The UK Government is copying our approach to nuclear and not the other way round, just to be clear, and we’ve had all of the assembled expertise in the north of Wales for some considerable time waiting for the UK Government to (a) stop switching chairs, and (b) actually get its act together.

And the idea that you can actually stand without embarrassment and welcome the fact that the Prime Minister went to COP27, when he was dragged kicking and screaming, and made what can only be described as an incredibly lukewarm speech, and not the world-leading speech he ought to have made, is frankly extraordinary.

This statement is very timely as COP27 happens in Egypt, as we’ve just heard. This morning, I met young people as part of Youth COP Cymru, which is arranged by Size of Wales, and it's clear to me that reducing carbon emissions is a priority for them in order to prevent the appalling predictions from coming about.

Earlier this year, the Environmental Audit Committee in Westminster recommended that the UK Government should make the Tata steelworks in Port Talbot a pilot site for carbon capture and storage. Clearly, this is a very important site in terms of local jobs, but decarbonising the works there is also an integral part of securing the future in order to reduce energy costs and also to reduce emissions. I would be grateful, Minister, if you could tell us what discussions you’ve had with the UK Government on the possibility of including Port Talbot in the carbon capture, use and storage pilot. I would like to hear more, too, about what the Welsh Government is doing in order to make progress with carbon-capture programmes and supporting steel in Wales.

In terms of the principle of carbon capture, I accept what you've said on the need to carry out thorough research into technologies being developed at the moment, but can you give us an idea of the rationale behind using this as a last resort? Is your concern that the carbon captured wouldn't be sufficient to contribute sufficiently for net-zero targets, and that we therefore shouldn't put too much emphasis on that? I'd like to understand that in more detail. 

And moving forward to what you said about hydrogen, I'm pleased that you recognise the huge potential in this area, and I would suggest that we need to make progress quickly here so that we can lead the way in Wales. I know that this is an issue that my colleague, Rhun ap Iorwerth, is very interested in. He's held a debate on the issue, and he's mentioned the excellent work happening in universities in Wales, as well as the fact that many innovative companies are located here. Plaid Cymru has been calling for some time for action in this area, and I would welcome, and I do welcome the fact that you intend to consult on a hydrogen strategy soon. But can you give us an assurance please that the work of developing the sector will continue in the meantime?

And, finally, to return to COP27, there are two crucial things to understand. First of all, the scale of the problem. The head of the UN said that we are on the road to climate hell. Now, that sentence has been quoted a number of times in the Chamber already today, but we can't undervalue the importance of that. And in terms of understanding this, we need to be clear about the steps that the Government is taking, and intends to take, in order to get to grips with this problem. People across the world are seriously concerned about the situation; the young people I met this morning were gravely concerned. Can you tell us how your Government will use its influence to set an example and work with others to try and have an impact on the global situation? And on that final point, Minister, can you tell us whether there's been an opportunity missed in having the Welsh voice heard stronger on the international stage, given that the Scottish First Minister did attend COP27? Now, I don't intend that to be a criticism of you; I know that your Government takes this very seriously. But given that Wales's platform internationally is so great at the moment, do you think that there's been an opportunity missed here? Thank you.

Diolch, Delyth. Well, just to address that last one first, we thought very carefully about whether I should go to COP27, or indeed, the First Minister should go, but I'm actually attending COP15 in Canada—the biodiversity COP—which is a decision-making COP. And given the carbon footprint of going all over the place, and given that this isn't a decision-making COP—it's an implementation COP; we have a team of officials out there working on the implementation side of it, but we thought that the platform was better used at COP15 because we need to develop the 30x30 targets, and it's a decision-making COP. So, it was balanced carefully. We really thought about it, and I did very seriously think about going, but, on balance, we decided—it's Wales in Canada year as well—that the COP15 ministerial attendance was very important. But just to be really clear, we have a team of officials out at COP27 taking part in the implementation talks, which are obviously the very important part of what's going on there. And it's why it was so disappointing that the UK Prime Minister, who actually has a seat at the table, which sadly I do not, was so reluctant to take that leading role, which I think is a very important point. 

And, then, in terms of all the other technical things, in terms of the carbon capture, utilisation and storage models, we are taking part in the trials in north Wales—the HyNet  trials. There are real issues around how the technology would work in the rest of Wales because there are no suitable storage opportunities. We're looking at a whole series of pieces of work about whether a pipeline—how it would work, but it's likely to be quite expensive, and, unfortunately, some of the heavy industry that needs it is in south Wales. So, we're very much taking part in HyNet, it's called, in north-east Wales, and helping industry there to take part in it. 

Our—I don't know what word to use; 'scepticism' is too hard a word—but our worry is that over-reliance on a technology not yet proven on our path to net zero will end up with us not getting there. So, if the technology is proven, then we will, yes, of course, embrace it, and we're working very hard with Valero, Tata Steel, and a number of other very heavy industries along the south coast here to try and understand how that might work for them, and indeed, actually, how the carbon stored might be reutilised, as you said. But that technology has been a long time coming, and isn't there yet—it works at small scale, but there's no at-scale yet. And I'm just a bit worried that an over-reliance on a technology that's not yet there to save us all might not save us all. So I just want to be clear on that.

And then, on hydrogen, it's clear that making hydrogen at scale at the moment requires fossil fuels. But we will be very clear that, although we will allow that to happen in Wales, because we need the hydrogen, we will not be stuck with stranded assets or old technology and we will be sure that anyone who's getting licences to do that is on a path to green hydrogen at speed. And I've had a large number of really interesting discussions with the global heads of various renewable industries about making sure that we have a planning sector that both encourages the hydrogen use, but also does not get stuck as a test bed for old technology and then it moves on to a bigger scale some place else. So, calibrating that is very much part of the strategy. And then, just to reassure you that we are very much working on it, and when we bring the strategy forward, it will very much have been worked on, and then wanting the Senedd's views on where to take it from there.

Personally, if we're going to not pass on the environmental risk and liability to future generations, I don't see how we can be building nuclear, because nobody knows what to do with all the waste that's produced, and that certainly is a way of passing on that risk.

I just want to welcome the fact that you are focusing on green hydrogen as the long-term goal, but I'd be keen to understand what we can do to generate more excess electricity from both wind and solar so that we're not so reliant on having to use blue hydrogen for decarbonising our industries. And lastly, I wonder if you could tell us, in terms of the non-combustion processes that are emitting, what progress is the Government making on supporting industry to develop much more low-carbon concrete. as opposed to the stuff that's normally used? Clearly, we're still going to need concrete, but we need to have low-carbon concrete to build those bridges across our railways and rivers.

Thank you, Jenny. So, on that last one, we fund and work alongside a number of universities across Wales, and specifically down in Swansea—very specifically—to develop as low a carbon as possible infrastructure for things like concrete and steel. You can't have renewables without steel, so making sure that the steel is produced as efficiently and in as low a carbon methodology as possible is a really important part of that. And Vaughan Gething and myself and Jeremy Miles have had a series of conversations about our net-zero skills programme, but with the various ports along the south coast and the various players in those ports, to make sure that we're bringing the technology for floating wind, for example, here to south Wales, and we're making sure that our steel manufacturing is geared up to make the kinds of steel necessary to do that, and that we have all of the other stuff—the submarine cables, and the chain, and all the rest of it, all the production lines that go with that. So, large amounts of green jobs, in inverted commas, but actually making products that aren't particularly green, in order to help the renewables industry. So making sure that they're all decarbonised—the cables, and the chains, and all the rest of it—and are also made in the least carbon-intensive way is very important to that project. And we've sponsored a large number of research projects around Wales. A number of us—Lesley and the First Minister—met with a whole series of companies in southern Ireland very recently, to discuss all of this as well. So we're very actively involved in that kind of discussion.

The big issue for renewables is base load, as it's called. So, this is the energy that can be switched on when everybody turns their kettle on at 9 o'clock, which they still do, apparently, even though we're not all watching the same tv programme. And that's one of the tragedies of the Tory Government's decision not to fund the tidal lagoons, because that had the real potential for that. We will be bringing forward a tidal lagoon challenge, as promised in our manifesto, shortly, to make sure that we do get the technology going. And I also want to remind the Conservative Government that one of the first things they did when they came into power, a very long time ago now—so, all these Governments you're blaming are your own—was cancel the Severn barrage project. So, the idea that—. We really could be well on the way to be self-sufficient in renewables and instead, we're in a global crisis caused by our reliance on fossil fuels, and I think that just says it all. 

I'm grateful to the Minister for her statement this afternoon, and one specific point that I picked up on was the clarification around the use of blue hydrogen as a transition towards the use of green hydrogen. And the Minister will be aware that, earlier today in my FMQ, I spoke about floating offshore wind and the possibilities of that off the south Pembrokeshire coast, and how that renewable can lend itself to green hydrogen production as well. So I'm grateful for that point of clarification.

But could I also stress another company that the Minister mentioned in response to Delyth Jewell was Valero, and, while not directly mentioned in your statement, the importance of the emissions trading scheme? And, can I just plead with the Minister to ensure that communication is still ongoing with Valero and other businesses in the south Wales industrial cluster around the emissions trading scheme and the importance that that scheme lends to the decarbonisation of these really important employers. Because, while we want to get to net zero, these employers still provide jobs and support communities and families at this moment, and you can't just switch off these businesses at this present moment. So, if I could just plead for her to continue those discussions, I'd be most grateful. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. 

I'm very happy to reassure you that we are, of course, doing that. Very recently, the Minister for Economy and myself met with Valero to discuss exactly that. We are just waiting on the next interministerial group with the UK Government to discuss the next iteration. We're somewhat hamstrung by the Northern Ireland situation. So we went out to consultation on the trading scheme, as I'm sure you're aware, but it requires all four Governments to come together as the authority to be able to take that forward. So, no doubt, there'll be a discussion about how to manage that, given the Northern Ireland situation.

There are still conversations about an export carbon price, which would definitely protect our steel industry, for example, and has been called for for some time, so discussions with the UK Government around, well, unfortunately, their reluctance to do that. I think it's very important for us to have the right global footprint for us to be able to protect our efficient industries and enable them to be able to compete on a global stage, as opposed to just dumping much cheaper products not produced in a carbon-efficient fashion across the globe. So those kinds of discussions are very much ongoing.

Then, just on floating wind, I heard your question earlier, of course; we welcome the interest in it. I would say that we do want the Crown Estate devolved. I know that it's not the policy of your benches, but, if we had the Crown Estate devolved to Wales, as it is in Scotland, it's clear from discussing with Scotland what else can be done. Now, we have a good relationship with the Crown Estate, and I'm very grateful for that, and they've been very helpful in terms of Welsh supply chains and so on, but it is undoubtedly the case that, if we controlled it here in Wales, we could get a better supply chain and a better profit element here in Wales for that, as is the case in Scotland. So I would urge the Conservatives to think again about that policy. 

As the Member for Ynys Môn, I could pursue many elements of that very broad-ranging statement. I retain my particular interest in hydrogen, after having led that debate on hydrogen here some two and a half years ago. I understand the interest in HyNet in the north-east, but I would encourage the Minister to keep an eye on and develop the Irish Sea connection—Pembrokeshire, Anglesey, along with our Irish partners—on the hydrogen front; really interesting prospects for green hydrogen linked to tidal stream energy, to offshore wind, also in nuclear generation creating hydrogen storage options. That's very interesting, though the context, of course, is the abject failure of the Conservatives to deliver on Wylfa, despite the hard work locally, and, as it happens, I wrote to the new Secretary of State for energy in Westminster last week, asking for clarity, because this will-they-won't-they ambiguity really damages communities like mine. That's the impact that the Conservative indecision is having. But, as it happens, we have lots of other issues that we can crack on with. A very short question though—

Yes, please. 

—relating to solar. The Minister might not be aware of a scheme called Solar Together on Merseyside. It's a group buying—a sort of bulk buying scheme, encouraging communities to buy solar panels together, in order to bring prices down to encourage investment. Is that something that could be considered in Wales? 

So, yes, that's very interesting. I am aware of it, and it's a very interesting development. We are very keen. The scheme referenced by our colleague, Mike Hedges, is a very similar sort of scheme, so we're very keen to understand how we might lever in finance in order to assist communities to come together to do exactly that, and then to share the energy out. So, in that scheme in particular it's very impressive that not everyone has a roof suitable for solar, but everyone is able to share in the power distribution and so on. So, yes, we are absolutely very keen on that. I'm also working with Swansea University, who have a very interesting, not yet at scale, home-grown solar panel invented. So, being able to get a supply chain that was Welsh-made would be really great, not only because I'd really love to have that kind of technology being made in Wales, but also just the carbon footprint of bringing them all from China is obviously considerable. So, there are lots of things to look at there, which I'm very keen to do. 

Just in terms of hydrogen, I did mention HyNet, but I am aware of all of the other possibilities. We've just invested £1.21 million in a whole range of projects on hydrogen right across the north and west coasts, including looking at a range of renewables that might be used to generate excess energy, as it's called—so, energy that can't be exported into the grid—in order to make hydrogen production more viable. We certainly will be looking at that as a transitionary phase as we go forward.

I welcome the statement by the Minister. Now is the time for an unremitting focus on creating a strong renewable energy future and continuing to establish Wales as a leader for net zero. Wales benefits from diverse renewable energy resources—onshore wind, fixed and floating offshore wind, wave, tidal and solar—all of which can bring significant opportunities to Wales. Renewables are providing low-cost, home-grown energy, which is reducing our reliance on international gas prices, thus protecting bill payers. 

Onshore wind is one of the lowest cost scalable electricity generation technologies, with rapid construction times. Complementing wind energy generation, tidal and wave energy will provide predictable and reliable sources, with co-location opportunities between wave and floating offshore wind. The Swansea bay tidal lagoon, which the Minister mentioned a few moments ago, should now become cost effective, and I urge the Minister to do everything possible to get it to occur. We have problems with grid connectivity. What is being done to improve grid connectivity? Finally, and perhaps most importantly, how are you going to make sure that carbon capture does not end up in acidifying the sea?

On that last one, exactly that, Mike. So, that's one of the reasons that we're looking with caution at the development of carbon capture, utilisation and storage. The technology clearly works at small scale, but as yet there's no big scale, and the storage issues that are being looked at in the HyNet project in the north will be very, very important—so, all of the issues about containment and making sure that it doesn't leak out and all the rest of it. The best thing would be to actually use it—so, looking at all the projects that can actually use the carbon that's captured in that way. So, the utilisiation bit of it, as well as the storage bit, is very important in that. That's why we're looking at it with some caution, because I think it is being seen as a silver bullet a little bit in some industries, and it most certainly isn't.

In terms of the range of other things that we're doing, we've got a very clear policy on local ownership. We'd like to see an energy price system that's entirely different to the one we have now. We're obviously linked to the marshalled price of gas, and that's the case even if you're getting most of your energy from renewables, which is obviously nonsensical. We do have some community projects on closed loop circuits, who are not having that problem. We're obviously very keen on making sure that those happen, but in a sustainable way. I know you're familiar with what happened down in Port Talbot when one of those went rather wrong—so, making sure we learn the lessons of that and making sure that community-owned closed loop systems also work is very important to us. 

And then the last piece I just wanted to mention was, just before everyone changed seats again at Westminster, we had got an agreement with Greg Hands, who was the then Minister, that we would have a holistic network design for Wales at last—after 40 years of Labour asks, the Conservatives see sense. It does always seem to take about 40 years for them to see sense, unfortunately. So, I really hope that that will happen once the new Minister has settled in. We're hopeful that it will and that will mean that we will, for the first time, have a planned grid for Wales, not driven by just which consumer wants to connect next, and that will mean that we will be able to plan out community ownership schemes in a much more reasonable and practical way right across Wales, rather than the somewhat haphazard who-goes-first-pays principle that we have at the moment.

And finally, Alun Davies.

I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, and grateful to you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. You made some very powerful statements at the beginning of your statement about the place of coal in our history and not our future. But there are, of course, already some consents and permissions within the system. Can you confirm—? I don't want to tempt you into making any comment on individual applications, but can you confirm that it is not the policy of this Government to allow any further extraction of coal at any time in the future?

It would be useful, I think, to have a statement on nuclear and its place in the overall energy mix. As you know, I'm a very strong supporter of the place of nuclear in the energy mix, and the points you made about base-load supply I think are well made, and nuclear does provide that. But we need a conversation about how we take that forward, particularly given the failures of UK Government on nuclear policy in the last decade or so.

But, finally, Minister, I'd like to push you a bit further, if I could, on the nature of Welsh Government policy. I don't want to see us adopting an approach whereby we say we want renewables and therefore we will accept anything to achieve that simple objective. I don't want to see my Valleys, the Valleys in the upper part of Gwent that I represent, having enormous developments imposed upon us in order to achieve a target that is determined elsewhere. What I would like to see is a very different vision of local generation—

Alun, you need to ask your question, please.

—supporting local need and local distributed supply, because I think that offers us an opportunity to do far more. And that means the Welsh Government removing a lot of the problems that exist, because, certainly, one of the great barriers we find is that other public sector bodies withhold consents and permissions that make and create barriers for the development of small-scale renewables.

I agree with that, Alun, and so we will be bringing forward the infrastructure consenting Bill in this Assembly year—so, before the end of the summer term—to make sure that we streamline the consenting for big projects and make a very distinct distinction between the planning sets for those. We've been doing a series of training rounds with all of the planning authorities in Wales about how to approach that and to make sure that they are fully aware of 'Future Wales: The National Plan' and of the most recent iteration of 'Planning Policy Wales', which have set out all of the policies that you've set out there.

In terms of base load, that's why the tidal lagoon fiasco in Swansea bay is so sad, because we would have had a pilot project there to actually test out whether you could get base-load renewables. In the meantime, nuclear is the only option for that.

On nuclear—Janet Finch-Saunders, I didn't address the point when she raised it, but the way that that's paid for is absolutely nonsensical. So, at the moment, they use a model that spread the cost out amongst all of the consumers. Clearly, that it is idiotic. This should be being done as research and development projects, properly capitalised by the UK Government, and, of course, we should not have come out of the collaboration with European Union research universities to the detriment of pretty much everyone on the planet, never mind here in the UK. So, reversing that would be a good deal.

And then, on the last piece of that, because we've made a public state-owned renewable energy developer, that is the organ with which we will encourage, alongside Ynni Cymru and with Plaid Cymru, the community ownership of the larger scale renewable plants that will allow us to spread the profit out. Diolch.

I thank the Minister.