The next item is the statement by the Minister for Climate Change on water quality. The Minister—Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. Water is one of our greatest natural assets and an integral part of Wales’s culture, heritage and national identity. However, our water sector is facing immediate and unprecedented challenges.

Over the next 20 years, Wales faces wetter winters, hotter, drier summers, rising sea levels, and more frequent and intense extreme weather events. The need to achieve decarbonisation, climate resilience, reverse the decline in biodiversity and improve our water quality will require innovative solutions, behaviour change, and long-term investment in our water infrastructure.

The onus is on all of us to act. A team Wales approach is required to deliver at scale and pace to realise our ambitions for nature and the climate, and we must each understand our role for delivery. A thriving water environment is essential for supporting healthy communities, flourishing businesses and biodiversity. To enable this, we need to reduce the pressure on our water environment, for example, the nutrient pollution. Currently over 60 per cent of our most precious rivers are failing phosphate targets. While this is having a direct impact on wildlife and habitat, this is also constraining our ability to build the low-carbon homes our communities need at the pace required.

In July last year, the First Minister convened a summit where organisations pledged to work together to develop solutions to address phosphorus pollution. Since then, nutrient management boards have been established, for which we have been providing funding support of up to £415,000. A database of mitigation measures has been produced and is currently being considered by members of the special areas of conservation rivers oversight group. Carmarthenshire County Council have developed a nutrient calculator. We will work with Carmarthenshire, Natural Resources Wales and other local authorities to develop a national nutrient calculator that can be adapted for use across Wales. A task and finish group has been set up to consider the feasibility of short-term measures and will report back in spring 2023. A catchment consenting proposal has been developed and is being considered by Natural Resources Wales. A catchment market model project has been established and is working on a pilot trial in the Usk. And we have identified appropriate nature-based solutions and will begin to explore their suitability in specific catchments.

A follow-up summit will be hosted in February to drive progress, and we will publish an action plan to reduce nutrient concentrations and develop a suite of measures to enable sustainable development to meet the needs of the people and communities of Wales.

NRW undertake a multimillion-pound programme of capital works, funded by Welsh Government, to address the multiple challenges facing Welsh rivers, including impacts on water quality. The key pressures on the water environment come from physical modifications or man-made changes to the natural habitat; pollution from sewage and wastewater; pollution from towns, cities and transport; pollution from rural areas; and pollution from mines. The capital programme includes projects to address the decline in salmon and sea trout stocks, restore characteristic river habitat for multiple benefits, including water quality, plus contribute to the well-being of people. 

I am very keen to maximise investment and funding, and would encourage organisations to work together. Earlier this year, I published our strategic priorities and objectives statement to Ofwat, which provides the framework for water companies to support our strategic objectives. Focusing on the climate and nature emergencies, environmental improvements, resilience, asset health and customers and communities, it is essential that water company investment plays a part in driving down pollution.

There is no single measure that will solve this crisis and there is no quick fix. For example, tackling storm overflows is one of the many elements that need to be addressed if we are to improve river quality in Wales. The water companies have been working over several years to improve poorly performing assets. This includes improving monitoring to identify where further action is required and prioritising action to address environmental harm and impact.

Multimillion-pound investment will be required over the next few years to recognise our ambitions, and I am keen to ensure every penny of investment delivers for customers, communities and the environment whilst avoiding creating or exacerbating inequality. However, we all have our part to play. Flushing just a single wet wipe is enough to start a blockage and risks causing catastrophic flooding in homes, resulting in significant distress and cost. Every time we pave over a driveway or a garden, we are adding to the pressures on our drainage networks.

Our programme for government commits to improving water quality, which can only be done if we have full engagement and a team Wales approach, where Government, regulators and all relevant sectors work together over the immediate, intermediate and medium term to realise long-term results to improve water quality.

The number of people participating in water-related recreational activities such as open-water swimming has increased dramatically over the last couple of years. In Wales, the number of designated bathing waters has also increased, but I am keen to get people’s views on what more we can do to encourage this via an inland water swimmers survey and an inland water landowner survey in early 2023. We have identified five inland waters that we would like to use to pilot a new approach to bathing waters next year, and I look forward to seeing the outcomes of this work as we move towards designating inland waters.  

In May this year we commissioned an independent report to undertake a post-implementation review of the sustainable drainage systems regime in Wales. I am expecting this report in spring 2023 and will use this to identify policy options to ensure that SuDS schemes not only fulfil their role of slowing down the flow of surface water, but also provide wildlife habits. Increasing SuDS features across Wales will result in increased opportunities for wildlife, contributing to our biodiversity targets.

We are investing £3.1 million in our three-year—. Sorry, I'll put my teeth back in. We are investing £3.1 million in our three-year natural flood management pilot programme, which was designed to help us understand how natural flood management works and how we can best deliver these types of schemes. This programme contains 15 projects across Wales, which are expected to reduce flood risk to 800 properties on completion. The majority of these projects will also improve water quality.

I am also committed to marine habitat restoration in Wales. This is critical to ensuring the Welsh marine environment remains resilient for future generations. I support critical habitat restoration projects, such as the seagrass project in Wales, and welcome the continued dialogue with Welsh Government, which is crucial to interlace with the delivery of our programme for government commitment.

I've been really clear that we need to take an integrated catchment approach, focusing on multisector co-operation and nature-based solutions to drive water quality improvements. By taking this approach and improving community engagement, we will be better able to take account of local circumstances and priorities. Citizens and local groups can play a key role in helping to tackle water quality pollution through providing monitoring intelligence and public awareness.

I am keen to work with citizen scientists to understand how their work can support and inform a better understanding of the range of impacts on our water environment. All parties must work together and take this team Wales approach to tackle the multiple risks impacting our lakes, rivers and streams and deliver real improvements to the quality of our waterways. I urge all sectors and organisations to work together, to be transparent, open and adaptable, which is the response we need to truly tackle the water quality issues we face across Wales. Diolch.

Of course, we know and we opposed on these benches the Welsh Government introducing the—oh, thank you for your statement, by the way, Minister—the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021. I believe that's a battle that we've lost, and I do feel sorry for those farmers. [Interruption.] Hold on. I feel sorry for those farmers who have no recorded incidents of agricultural pollution, because they do feel that they are being penalised.

Let me make it clear from these benches: we do not want to see pollution. I'm the shadow Minister for climate change and that includes the environment. And we all, as passionate Welsh Conservatives, believe that the pollution of our rivers, our watercourses, the sea and anything is unacceptable, and we've long called on these benches for you to take the water companies to task. But I have to also say that the points you've made about wet wipes and things like that—. I've been along many times when we've had lots of e-mails saying, 'There are hundreds of dead fish', so you go and—. Dŵr Cymru, to be fair, investigate, and it is just purely as a result, actually, in those instances—. All the pollution incidents in my constituency, since I've been here, have actually not been related to farming activities. Going back to that particular argument, it was never a given that £20 million would be enough.

I just have a question for you here. At a time when Jeremy Clarkson and, of course, my farmer in Llanfairfechan, Gareth Wyn Jones, are speaking out now, Minister, so eloquently on behalf of farmers, saying that they want these mountains of regulations that seek to micromanage every acre to be slashed, will you look, going forward, to see how you can work better with our farmers?

Now, of course, my colleague James Evans mentioned today about phosphates and the housing issue. You've made the argument to us: 'Look, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that you care about the environment and then agree to pollution.' We're not agreeing to pollution. What we are saying is that there are nearly 10,000 houses stuck in the planning system. Now, all I would say is, surely we don't want those high levels, but if those houses are not allowed to go ahead, put those developers out of their misery and say that they are never going to get planning. It's the fact that you have got gridlock in the planning system.

Sewage pollution is the top pollutant in Welsh bathing waters, according to Natural Resources Wales, and one thing that I wasn’t aware of until recently, when we have had some pollution incidents, is where members of the public, either through their developers or—. They do, if you like, illegal connections. I’m finding more and more of these cropping up, whereby the river Conwy is being polluted and then, when it’s traced back, it’s actually a private development or it’s housing somewhere, and the water companies can’t always identify it. So, what steps are you taking, Minister, to ensure that members of the public, when they are developing a property or redeveloping a property, know the dos and don’ts for tapping into the drainage system? Do you agree with me that we should be legislating now to ensure that water companies are not allowed to leave sewage discharge incidents unaddressed—some for several years?

You have claimed that it would cost £9 billion to £14 billion to remove combined storm overflows. There were 184 sewage pipes found to be operating without permits in Wales, reiterating what I have just said, with just one application for a permit made in Wales as of March 2022. Yet, in 2022, there were 3,299 discharge incidents from these pipes without permits, and that has increased by 43 per cent since 2020.

So, basically, what I am saying is that what’s happening now isn’t working. So, will you commit, Minister, to taking action on the rapid increase in discharge incidents, clamping down on those illegally discharging waste? And let’s have—. I don’t like the term 'holistic', but let’s have an all-encompassing, multifaceted approach, so that we stamp out, once and for all, the pollution to our waterways. Thank you.

Well, thanks, Janet. I mean, you know, once again, I’m afraid that I have to point out the contradiction in what you are saying. You don’t want pollution. You don’t want the agricultural pollution regulations. The idea that no agriculture in Wales causes pollution, that it’s all down to the water companies and the house builders is obviously nonsense.

Of course, what we want is exactly what I said in my statement, and what the First Minister emphasised in the summit at the Royal Welsh Show. Each sector needs to stop blaming the other sectors and look to put its own house in order. What we want is farmers who put the right nutrient in the right place at the right time, so that it doesn’t run off into the rivers. We need to help them do that. We need to help them do the soil testing on their land that makes them understand what nutrients are necessary. We also need to make sure that farmers are properly financed and, indeed, properly trained to understand what the difference is.

We see it all the time. I see it all the time, where I live. You see a farmer spreading muck near a river in the rain. Well, you can watch what happens when that happens. So, you know, that farmer isn’t wilfully trying to pollute that river, but they are using a practice that is bound to lead to that result. So, we need the agricultural pollution regulations in place because we need to get the farmers to understand what they are doing. It saves them money in the longer term. Nobody wants to put nutrients on the soil that are not necessary, and we need to protect the rivers from that.

Similarly, in terms of combined storm overflows, we have made it very plain indeed to Ofwat—and, indeed, to the UK Government—that in their instructions to Ofwat, and our instructions to Ofwat, they need to regulate the water companies, so that they are putting that investment in the right place. But we need the price mechanism to reflect that as well. These things are more complex than just telling people to do something. They need to have the investment strategies in place to be able to do that.

The other thing that we need to do is that we need people to step up to their own responsibility here. For a long time in Wales, you have needed planning consent to pave over your front garden, but most authorities don’t enforce that and most people don’t know that. When you pave over your front garden—Joyce is indeed in the Chamber now, and Joyce has championed this over a large number of years—people need to understand that that water is no longer just absorbed into the ground surrounding their house, but runs off into the gullies. Then, you have a huge problem with much, much bigger storm overflows that the water companies then have to deal with. So, again, we will have to step up to that. We have to make sure that we don’t add to that problem.

In terms of the house building that you mentioned, of course I’m not going to tell them that they can’t build those houses. What we’re going to do is what I set out in my statement: we’re reviewing the SuDS regime, we are reviewing what would need to be done if you wanted to build the houses alongside the SAC rivers that are in trouble, and we will announce what can be done to allow those houses to go ahead. I want them more than anyone else does in this Chamber, but I also want to make sure that the people who then live in those houses are not themselves polluting the river that, no doubt, they’d be very happy to live near, and that goes for all of our special areas.

As for illegal connections, one of the things that people can do is just make sure that their own house is not in fact illegally connected. I find it very difficult to believe that builders inadvertently and without realising it connect the house not to the sewer but to the local river. That is clearly a criminal offence. So, we will be working with NRW to be able to take better enforcement action against people who have done that. Unfortunately, a lot of these are historical, though. When I moved into my house, which is 30-something years ago now, that was badly connected. We’ve corrected it since. So, a lot of older houses are in that position, so we need people to actually be alert to that and be checking themselves what their household looks like.

And, yes, we all need to take some personal responsibility for what we flush down the loo. Lots of things that are in the films that we saw—I watched the George Monbiot one on the Usk recently; it’s enough to make you cry, if you haven’t seen it. But the stuff floating by are all things that should never have been put into the sewage in the first place. So, people need to be really careful about putting wet wipes and all kinds of other things down the loo. Dispose of them carefully in your waste and then we will deal with them appropriately and they will not cause pollution.

Thank you for the statement, Minister. Many of us were concerned and disgusted to hear earlier this year—and we’ve already heard the figures—how many instances of untreated sewage being dumped into Welsh watercourses there were. Now, as we’ve already heard, these numbers do not include the unpermitted storm overflows, or the overflows that are not monitored by water companies. So, do we know the genuine number of cases since those cases came to light? Do we know the scale of the problem and how serious the problem continues to be in terms of those hidden figures?

Other issues that cause concern in terms of water quality—and you’ve touched on this already, Minister—are the risks of pollution from increased rainfall because of climate change and urban expansion, which lead to increased risks associated with pollution run-offs, increased human waste, and a greater risk of flooding, with more people put at risk of coming into contact with polluted water. I’d like to know what assessment the Welsh Government has undertaken of the impact of climate change, population growth and urbanisation on water quality and water pollution risks. I’d also, Minister, like you to outline what action the Welsh Government is taking to address these impacts.

Now, the next issue I’m going to raise, I know this is something that we often discuss in the Siambr, and in committee. When we look at what is happening in Scotland—. I know that it isn’t ever the case that, 'Well, we always have to follow what happens in Scotland, because it is being done in Scotland', but it would be interesting to know about your assessment of what is happening. Environmental Standards Scotland has commenced its statutory role as an independent environmental governance body, and although Welsh stakeholders recommended equivalent actions for Wales, we don’t have a firm commitment in terms of a time frame for when we can close that governance gap in Wales. We need robust environmental governance in Wales. I think that would be something that could—. It wouldn’t be a silver bullet in any sense, but it would help so much. So, any additional information that you could provide in terms of the time frame would be very useful. And if you could commit firmly to bringing forward the promised legislation on environmental governance and principles, that would be useful.

Minister, the final point I wanted to make was actually about what you were just saying at the end of your response to Janet. The really tricky, difficult issues about people flushing things that they shouldn’t be flushing down the toilet, leading to disgusting things that shouldn’t be in our waterways getting into our waterways, increased risks of flooding, all these different things—. Firstly, how do you think we can—? Actually, no, not firstly—this is the question. I've just realised there wasn't going to be a 'secondly'. How can we get to the bottom of this really knotty, complicated issue that, for people, it's not always the case that they don't realise that this is the wrong thing to do? Some of them realise it's the wrong thing to do, but for so many different complicated reasons, do it anyway. I'm not talking about penalising people here. How can we increase a sense of communal buy-in into this? I know this is a really difficult question, but how can we get more people living in our communities, from when they're children, to want to do the right thing, to want to care more about the environment? Nobody wants all of this to happen, and yet the wrong things happen that lead to it happening. So, if there's any chink of light that you can give us on that, it would be useful. Thank you. 

Diolch, Delyth. In terms of the increased rainfall—. Well, it's not just the increased rainfall, actually. One of the biggest issues we have is hot, dry summers followed by extreme rainfall events. We still are in drought in most of Wales. We still haven't got our reservoirs up to where they should be, despite the rain that we've been having recently, because it's intermittent. A lot of it falls suddenly and then it's intermittent. You could say today was a rainy day, but large parts of today didn't have rain in them. So, we are watching climate change happen. And that's following a hot, dry summer where the land dried right out. So, instead of absorbing that water, it runs off, and that's a real problem. It's a real problem for us to make sure that we put resilient systems in place that allow better absorption of water when it finally does come. 

One of the reasons why we are really emphasising at the moment that what you do in your own home really matters is because if that water can absorb into the gardens—even the small front gardens that people have in urban areas—it makes a huge difference to the amount of water that runs off. And if I can just digress for one moment, please don't put AstroTurf down. Have a little read of what's in AstroTurf and what happens to children who play on it, and the chemical compounds that get into them afterwards. Amongst the very many things I hope from our plastics legislation, Llywydd, once we eventually pass it, is that we can look very soon at AstroTurf, because it is horrendous. What people are looking for is a lovely green lawn. It's not that hard to grow a green lawn, actually. So, we're really working hard with our schoolchildren as part of our new curriculum. These are the well-informed citizens of the world that we want, who understand the effect of their own actions on the planet that they live on.

The other thing we will be doing, of course, is banning a whole range of single-use plastics, so then they won't be able to be flushed down the loo—the classic cotton bud and stirrers and all sorts of other things that people manage to flush down the loo. And then, I go back to what I've often discussed in this Chamber as well, which I will be bringing up with the UK Government once again, which is labelling. I do think that we have real problems with labelling. Some things are labelled as if they're biodegradable or flushable, like flushable wet wipes. There is no such thing as a flushable wet wipe. Talking to the UK Government about what can be done to label it to empower people to make the right choices where they want to is really, really important. So, we will be doing that as well. 

In terms of the environmental body, obviously, we've discussed this many times. I'm absolutely determined to put an environmental body in place with the biodiversity targets to implement. We're very closely following what's happening in Scotland. We will learn the lessons from that, and so when we do it, we will have the benefit of having learnt those lessons. I'm very happy to say once again that we will do that. We're going, I hope, to COP15 in Canada, where we will hope to play a big role in what happens about the 30x30 targets, and how they might be implemented in what are called sub-national states for this purpose—sub-UN states. And the Under2 Coalition will be looking at that as well, so we will be able to help each other with that.

Just on that, we will also be looking to implement, as I said in my statement, a whole range of natural water solutions. We have some in action at the moment. I don't know if Mike Hedges is in the Chamber—he isn't. In Mike Hedges's constituency—you may have heard me mention it—

He's behind you. 

Oh, you are there. Sorry, Mike. Right behind me, Mike. We have a Tawe flood defence, which is a natural solution there. The Tawe floods out into what would have been part of its natural flood plain. It's a reed bed. It has the most incredible biodiversity that's come back to that part of Swansea, and it has prevented the Tawe from flooding along its length for a very long time. It's extremely successful and, actually, very important for local schoolchildren to go and look what happens when you do it. So, we have got these programmes in action, and the announcements I made during my statements are basically rolling that knowledge out across Wales as fast as we can go.

As if on cue, Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I welcome the Minister's statement? The Minister is correct: over the next 20 years—in fact, the next 50 years—Wales faces wetter winters, hotter, drier summers, rising sea levels and more frequent and intense extreme weather events. Many of us growing up in the 1960s and 1970s were used to continual light rain; now we have long, dry spells, broken by very heavy rain, which can lead to flooding, often in areas that were never flooded before. Currently, over 60 per cent of rivers are failing phosphate targets, which is having a direct impact on wildlife. Pollution from sewage and wastewater is affecting rivers across Wales, including the River Tawe. Does the Minister agree that you cannot keep on putting phosphates, nitrates and sewage into our rivers without affecting both the quality of water and biodiversity? It doesn't disappear, it is still there. Tackling storm overflows is one of the many elements that need to be addressed if we are to improve river quality in Wales. Untreated sewage is regularly discharged at the Trebanos treatment works in the Neath constituency of Jeremy Miles and affects the River Tawe, causing problems for anglers and children playing in the river downstream, which includes your constituency and mine, Minister. Does the Minister agree that it's necessary to take action, including legislation, to stop the discharge of raw sewage into rivers? Unless we legislate, the water companies are not going to do anything.

Thank you, Mike. As I said before, we've been working with Ofwat to make sure that, in the next price review for water companies, both the ability and the need to invest in stopping sewage outflows into rivers, particularly the combined sewage outflows, is very necessary and that a programme of investment can be put forward. It's very important to us that the price mechanism is put in place to allow, in particular, Dŵr Cymru to invest, because Dŵr Cymru is a not-for-profit. So, we've been really pushing with Ofwat that the model of price that they put in place must benefit a not-for-profit company, so that it can invest more. Jane Hutt and myself had a very interesting conversation with them and with the water charities about the affordability of that, as well as the ability to invest. So, we certainly are on that, Mike.

Just in terms of the phosphates and the special areas of conservation, we have a whole series of capital programmes in place that we hope to roll out across Wales. We've got the north-west opportunity catchment project, which is targeting riverbank erosion caused by livestock access, poor riparian habitat condition and the impact of diffuse pollution on sensitive wetland sites. That's in Clwyd, Conwy and Anglesey. There's the freshwater pearl mussel project, which is about river resilience and developing benefits to water quality—and I can sneakily put in that I'm the native oyster champion there, Llywydd, so I'm very keen on that project as well. And there's the LIFE Dee River project, alongside the four rivers project, which is working with landowners to reduce the inputs of nutrients and sediments to the Dee SAC through providing for on-farm interventions. We have a range of projects of that sort, Mike, where we will be getting the learning back from them and then looking to roll them out right across the SAC rivers in Wales. Diolch.

I'm grateful to you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. I was indeed particularly pleased to hear the reference to the number of current initiatives, including the one in Carmarthenshire County Council and this newly developed nutrient calculator and the restoration of critical habitats. As you note, a thriving water environment is essential for supporting healthy communities, flourishing businesses and biodiversity, and our agricultural communities can play a role in achieving this. Therefore, given the introduction of the Welsh Government's sustainable farming scheme and the agriculture Bill, what discussions have you had with your colleague the rural affairs Minister to ensure that farmers are rewarded for their efforts to restore critical habitats such as rivers, lakes and ponds on their own land? Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you very much for that. Of course, my colleague Lesley Griffiths and I have been working very, very closely together, as have all our officials, on this. We can't do this without our farmers—that's the truth of it—without our landowners, so of course they're absolutely pivotal. We work with the farming unions and with groups of other farmers. I had farmers on my biodiversity deep dive, for example; they are absolutely fundamental to our ability to do this. This is to modernise our farming practices, to make sure that farmers use what's necessary and no more, to actually save them money, and to get the precision agriculture in place that we would like to see right across Wales. But it's also to encourage—[Interruption.] Yes; the sustainable agriculture initiatives—not just the SFS, but all the others as well—are all designed to reward farmers who do the right thing, and that's the whole purpose of them. In fact, we've learnt a lot from groups of farmers who came together outside of the scheme and put together projects that we've learnt from. It enabled them to do the hedges and edges project, for example. Also, I was very pleased, although a little bit sad, to go down and launch the very last European-funded initiative for Rivers for LIFE down in Carmarthenshire at the agricultural college there, to talk to the local farmers about how well that project has been received and what can be done when we all work together with our landowners to make sure that we put our rivers back into the pristine form that we would all very much like to see.

I too thank you for your statement, Minister. You'll be well aware of the value of the Gwent levels, Minister, having set up the working group that I'm very pleased to chair and done much other work. They're a great example of sustainable drainage dating from the Roman times. There are, in fact, some 900 miles of waterways on those Gwent levels, and, of course, they sustain some very valuable wildlife, including water voles, which have been a great attraction in recent times. There have, though, Minister, been issues about water quality and indeed flooding, and that's very worrying to those who live there. There are many villages that are cheek by jowl with those Gwent levels, so I've had quite a lot of concern from local residents and businesses around those issues, and sometimes it's rather confusing to find out who's responsible. Is it Natural Resources Wales, is it the local authority, is it Welsh Water, is it British Rail in terms of the waterways and the culverts and so on? I think the plea from people and businesses living and operating locally, Minister, is: can Welsh Government work with those who have responsibility to make sure that there's proper clearance of those watercourses, that maintenance is always what it needs to be, so that we avoid the adverse water quality and flooding issues as much as possible in the future?

Yes, absolutely, John. I was delighted to come along to one of the meetings, and I know that you've been working very hard there on the Gwent levels, which are a real green lung for the conurbation around them—very, very important for all kinds of biodiverse reasons, but, actually, very important for humans as well: they literally produce the air that we breathe. So, it's an important treasure that we really must do something about. 

There are a number of rules and regulations that I haven't had time in this statement to mention. Under the water framework directive, for example, Natural Resources Wales is required to monitor surface and ground water quality, and collect chemical, physical and biological data to classify water bodies. The directive promotes an integrated, holistic approach to water management based on river basins, the natural geographical and hydrological units. So, I can assure your constituents and the people of the surrounding towns and villages there that NRW is monitoring a lot of that.

There is a complexity, though, about who is responsible for some of the enforcement. We have three current reviews looking at that. We have a review that's part of the co-operation agreement into section 19 and winter flood reports; we have a review being done by our coast and water management committee into the regulatory framework; and we have another internal review going on, because, as a result of the way that leaving the European Union has meant that we've taken some of those regulations back in house, we need to have a review about whether they're best placed with us, with local authorities, or with NRW, or, indeed, with the water companies. So, there are three separate reviews currently going on, and at some point we'll bring them together to give some clarity. In the meantime, John, if you want to write to me about specific instances, I'll be able to point you at the right regulator for the particular example that you're giving. 

I certainly welcome your statement, Minister, today. I think it's a good statement, and I thank you for your engagement with me, because, obviously, rivers are an important part, and some of these issues are really resonating in my community.

I know that the Welsh Government are piloting drainage and wastewater management plans ahead of placing them on a statutory footing next year, and I would be interested to know more about how these pilots are progressing and what lessons you may have already learnt from them. Looking at the pollution side of things, there are regular suggestions that intensive poultry units in and around the Wye catchment in particular may be having an adverse effect. Yet, there seems to be conflicting evidence in this regard of exactly the impact that such farming is having on pollution levels, and I think we really do need clarity on that. I refer Members to my interest there, not that I've got any chickens at all.

In line with the team Wales approach also, I'd be interested to hear, Minister, how the Government and Natural Resources Wales are working with farmers around the Usk and Wye catchments to improve farming practices to help reduce pollution, and what work the Government has undertaken to analyse what impact intensive farm practices are having on water quality and how this can be mitigated. Thank you.

Yes, thank you, Peter. So, our river basin management plans, our river catchment management plans are the main mechanism that we use to improve water quality. We implement the plans—I know that you know this already—on a catchment partnership and cross-sectoral co-operation between a wide variety of stakeholders, local authorities, non-governmental organisations, farmers, angling bodies, universities, the energy companies, utility companies and local action groups, and there's one, obviously, on the Usk and the Wye.

We use what's called an integrated catchment based methodology, which is promoted by the water framework directive, which is still in force, and which I besiege the Conservative Government not to think of repealing any time soon. So, if you have any influence there, please do use it. The catchment based methodology, which is promoted by the water framework directive, is really showing positive results and a gradual improvement in water quality, which is evidenced by the latest classification results. So, 40 per cent of Wales's water bodies are classed as 'good' or 'better' at present; 44 per cent of Wales's rivers are achieving a 'good' status; and the 2020-21 data shows an 8 per cent improvement in water quality since the first classification released in 2009. And I use those figures advisedly, because I do think that we have to be careful not to have a counsel of despair here as well. So, talking to some young people earlier today, it is important to understand that these things work; we have got evidence that this improves the way that these things work, and therefore, if we all pull together and actually do these things, we will get that improvement. Otherwise, I just think people start throwing their hands up and think, 'What does it matter?' So, I do think that's very, very important.

You've absolutely identified that there are various threats. So, we know that, in Wales, we've got the agricultural sector; we've got mining and quarrying, including pollution from abandoned metal mines, which is a significant issue in parts of Wales; we've got the transport sector; we've got urban pollution; and we've got water industry discharges. We've a whole plethora of things. So, we've got to get an integrated cross-sectoral approach. So, improving water quality is an absolute priority for this Government. We've made provisions for a multi-year, multimillion pound programme of works to improve water quality—over £40 million over the next three years, for example, just on remediating pollution from the disused metal mines.

So, just turning immediately, then, to the chicken point that you raised, NRW has carried out some modelling of phosphates in special areas of conservation river catchments for the management of waste water. This is a draft at the moment, but just to let you know that we can calculate loads from rural land use, which includes agriculture and in particular chickens, and I think it tells its own story. I just emphasise that this is draft, but the Wye at 72 per cent, the Usk at 67 per cent, the Dee at 24 per cent, and the Teifi at 28 per cent. So, that tells you something, doesn't it, about the Usk and the Wye and what's happening there. So, we will be using these to look at what we need to do to control that and to help the farmers there actually do something about what's happening with those chicken units, because, let's be clear, they're producing a product that people want. So, we need to be able to do that in a sustainable way and in a way that allows us not to pollute our rivers right beside it, but allows those farmers to produce the products that people want.

And the other thing is to just guard against unintended consequences. So, we have some planning regulations, I'm sure you know, in Wales, which mean that you have to have planning consent for over 40,000 birds. So, everybody has 39,999, with the result that you have a plethora of smaller units, which actually is harder to manage. So, we have to be really careful that when we think of solutions that we think might work, we don't put something in place that actually makes it worse. So, there are a number of things that we will need to look at. But I can't emphasise enough that we need to do this with our landowners and with our farmers, but 'something' is what needs to be done. The idea that we just say, 'It's not their fault, it's the water companies', or all the other things we've discussed here, is not a runner. Every sector needs to look to itself and to look to see what that sector can do to improve this, or our rivers will die, and none of us want that.

Good afternoon, Minister, and thank you so much for your statement. It really shows, I think, a really comprehensive approach to water quality. Thank you to you and your team in its production. I'm a resident of Hay-on-Wye, as many of you will know, and it's really important to me that rivers, particularly the River Wye—. That we tackle river pollution. I swim in the river every summer. I haven't at the moment had any nasty diseases, but who knows? Next year may well be different. 

I want to just talk about Dŵr Cymru, who have an overall responsibility for water pollution. Chief executives over the past two years at Dŵr Cymru have received £2.4 million in pay, including £808,000 in bonuses. I just fail to understand how Dŵr Cymru see it right to reward themselves for their failure on water pollution. So, I just wonder, Minister, if you could just let us know what discussions you're having with Dŵr Cymru and whether you can raise that issue. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Jane. We have discussions with Dŵr Cymru, and indeed Hafren Dyfrdwy, all the time. We have a very close working relationship with NRW and our water authorities, for obvious reasons, and as I was just saying in response to John, we're currently conducting a number of reviews about who has what responsibility to do what in this area. We've got a co-operation agreement investigation going on, and we've got three others also being looked at, to make sure that the regulation that we have in place is effective and efficient, and I think it probably is obvious. You don't have four reviews if something is effective and efficient, and clearly it isn't, so we hope that the reviews will give us a place to hang our hat in terms of reform of that system.

I also speak to Ofwat and the UK Government very regularly about this. How the water companies remunerate their employees is not a matter for the Welsh Government. What is a matter for us is to make sure that Ofwat, under direction from the UK Government as well as ourselves, puts in place a financial plan that allows those companies to have the right staff in the right place, including enforcement staff, but much more importantly to have the right kind of capital investment to correct the kinds of problems that we've got that we've just been discussing in the whole of this event, particularly the combined storm overflows and the misconnection of housing estates, and indeed, actually, commercial premises as well, although nobody has mentioned that, because those are really big issues. And it is absolutely fundamental, particularly for Dŵr Cymru, that that financial plan allows a not-for-profit company, because the previous plan did not; it disadvantaged them because they weren't paying dividends to shareholders. So, we really need that to be taken on board, and we do have those conversations very frequently.

Finally, James Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you for your statement, Minister. I do wholeheartedly agree with your comment that this is a team Wales approach and it does need a number of stakeholders and agencies to come around the table to address water quality, because no one part of the blame can be put on one party. I was quite pleased in your statement that you've got a task and finish group looking at short-term mitigation measures. I was just wondering if you could expand on that and what they're looking at to see if we can get the planning system moving again. And also, you said there's a database of mitigation measures that has been put together. I was just wondering if you could actually expand on what those are, and what wider consultation will be had with the wider industry to make sure that those things can be implemented.

And two final questions. You mentioned the £3.1 million for flood mitigation and water quality schemes. I'm not aware of the details of that, so if you could point me in the direction of where those schemes are and how they're going to improve flood management and water quality, I would be very interested in that. And also, finally, as you say about wet wipes, you are right, Minister; they are not recyclable and people do just chuck them down the pan, or whatever they do, and it's not right. I'd like to know what discussions you've had with Ministers from the UK Government around labelling, because I do agree with you that we need to be very clear around single-use plastics and what is recyclable and what isn't, and if you could expand on the discussions you've had with the UK Government, I'd be very grateful. Diolch, Llywydd.

Thanks, James. I'll do my best with that. It's quite a long list of things.

Just to say that planning for drainage and sewerage services has a lot of interdependencies. Water companies have got to meet their statutory duties under environmental legislation. They have to work with the local authorities who have responsibility for flood prevention and significant drainage assets, and they have to work with landowners and farmers. So, you can see immediately the need for a cross-sector approach. We obviously want the sewerage and drainage infrastructures to all be well managed and maintained in an integrated way, with sufficient capacity to manage the demand placed on it. That's a long-term, collaborative plan to work out how we can do that, and that's why we had the summit, back in the summer, and that's why we're saying to each sector to work with us to come up with plans. So, we have a whole range of task and finish groups going on as a result of the summit, in which we are expecting each sector to say what it can do to help us with that. In the meantime, as I said, we've been investing in a number of other things. So, the programme for government committed to delivering nature-based flood management in all major river catchments, expanding wetland and woodland habitats in the process. So, we're supporting natural flood-management projects right across Wales, with £3 million in grant funding provided through the programme. So, I think that's what you're referring to there. Those are in a very large range of river catchment areas across Wales, James, so you'd have to tell me which ones you were particularly interested in. If you write in, I can give you a list of them; I don't have it about my person. It's a long, long list. So, write in if you want some detail on that in your own area, or wherever you want it for. 

The programme, as I said in previous answers, is going to reduce flood risk to around 800 properties, but it's much wider than that, because it improves water quality and creates habitat and aids land management. So, these are multiple benefits for a single spend, which we're very keen on. We've also provided funding for 15 projects delivered by 10 different risk management authorities across Wales to look at natural solutions, rather than hard culverting, for example. And the Four Rivers for LIFE project, which I mentioned earlier, which I went down to launch in Carmarthenshire, for example, that's well worth going to have a look down there in the college. They have a display there, and that's talking about things like—it's about 500 km of river that's going to be looked at. And that's doing things like—in the past, people have straightened the river, which would appear to give you more manageable land, but in fact what it does is make the river run much faster and takes away some of the benefits. So, actually, 're-meandering', it's called, re-meandering the river. I think virtually everyone remembers oxbow lakes from geography; it's literally the only thing that people remember from most geography lessons. But, re-meandering the rivers and putting back those natural things like that slows the river flow down, allows the river to spread out into the land where necessary without major flooding, and has a real benefit you can see immediately in biodiversity terms and for the landowners. So, I'm very happy if you want to write in to me and ask for details of these specific projects, but we're very proud of what's been achieved. 

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

I thank the Minister.