Item 7 is next, a statement by the Minister for Social Justice: women’s justice and youth justice blueprints, progress report and next steps. I call on the Minister—Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Our blueprints for women's justice and youth justice represent the Welsh Government and UK Government's joint vision and strategy for supporting women, children and young people who offend or are at risk of offending. We published the blueprints in 2019 in collaboration with HM Prison and Probation Service, the Ministry of Justice, policing in Wales and the Youth Justice Board. This partnership approach is particularly important as justice is currently a reserved area, but interfacing closely with devolved services. I continue to meet with UK justice Ministers to discuss the blueprints and wider justice matters with the Counsel General, to discuss our joint work and our future vision for Welsh justice.

But, today, I want to update you on progress against the blueprints. In May 2022, we published our implementation plans, highlighting the progress we're making to divert women and young people away from crime. The Counsel General and I were updated on this work recently by the South Wales deputy police and crime commissioner, Emma Wools, and Dominic Daley, director of engagement and innovation for the Youth Justice Board, the senior responsible officers for the women's and youth blueprints respectively. I would like to share with you some key elements of the ongoing work, focusing firstly on the women's justice blueprint.

The women's pathfinder whole-system approach concentrates on early intervention and prevention, taking a holistic and rehabilitative approach to divert women away from crime, and supporting women to access community-based services through one-to-one support. The practical help and guidance provided is essential, especially in light of the cost-of-living crisis. A recent evaluation underlined just how effectively this project is improving the lives of vulnerable women in Wales who may not otherwise have engaged at that point in their involvement with the justice system. Under the blueprint, diversion services are now in place for women across all of the four police force areas in Wales.

Another development is a new gender- and trauma-informed training package for those working with women in the justice system. Aimed at upskilling staff with the expertise and confidence to take a gender-informed approach, this training is currently being rolled out to all agencies working in the criminal justice landscape.

The Visiting Mums service, jointly funded by Welsh Government and HMPPS, helps Welsh mothers maintain a positive relationship with their children throughout their prison sentence, offering specialist support to preserve and strengthen vital family ties. Between June 2021 and August 2022, the programme has supported 68 families.

Previous visits I've undertaken to HMP Eastwood Park and HMP Styal have enabled me to see first-hand the encouraging work being delivered by the women's justice blueprint, including the Nelson Trust ONE Women's Centre at HMP Eastwood Park. This will provide a single, holistic service for all women at the site up to 12 months before their release into the community, linking a range of services together.

I can also confirm that discussions are ongoing with the Ministry of Justice and other key stakeholders on the proposed residential women's centre. The centre will provide holistic, trauma-informed support for women in the criminal justice system, and an alternative to disruptive and unnecessary custodial sentences.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we know that 57 per cent of women currently coming into contact with the criminal justice system are victims of domestic abuse. Sixty-three per cent of girls and young women serving sentences in the community have also experienced rape or domestic abuse in an intimate partner relationship. There are also links between poverty and violence, with strong evidence highlighting that high levels of income inequality are a strong predictor of violent crime. The residential women's centre is a pilot for the UK to demonstrate that there can be an alternative to imprisonment.

I now turn to the youth justice blueprint, which is embedding a trauma-informed, child-first approach to justice. Under the blueprint, enhanced case management is now available to all youth offending teams in Wales for children in voluntary and statutory contact. This psychologically led, multi-agency approach recognises the trauma that young people have experienced, and identifies how to help them build the resilience they need to thrive and live crime-free lives. Additionally, the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee is now providing funding to support the forensic adolescent consultation and treatment service. This has embedded a psychological, trauma-informed model for youth offending teams across Wales, enhancing the support provided to vulnerable young people.

Work is progressing on a youth justice prevention framework to support children at risk of entering the criminal justice system. This builds on existing investment, such as promoting positive engagement, which is funded from the Welsh Government children and communities grant, and the grant funds projects on diversion, prevention and support for young people, to facilitate change in their behaviour.

In January 2021, we outlined our vision for children to be accommodated in small homes close to their communities, and having access to services and specialist wraparound support that meet their needs. A small homes programme board, led by the Welsh Government and involving the Ministry of Justice and the UK Government Department for Education, will drive this ambitious work.

This is only a brief snapshot of our achievements, which are set out in full in the implementation plans. On 26 October we also published an evaluation, which gives a powerful sense of the impact the blueprints are making in practice. On Thursday, I will be speaking at the women's justice blueprint conference, providing a further opportunity to share the outcomes of the programme. Delegates will also hear from women including Danielle John, who has received life-changing support from the blueprints and who has offered invaluable expertise to our work, including through sharing her own lived experience.

The blueprints are being held up as an exemplary model for delivering key, cross-cutting policies in partnership, which is now being replicated elsewhere. Our VAWDASV national strategy, published in May, is being delivered through the same blueprint approach, with a strong focus on survivor experience and influence.

I welcome the Equality and Social Justice Committee's inquiry on women in the criminal justice system. I look forward to receiving the committee's report, which I know will reflect the challenges women in the justice system still face. Women are still being sentenced to unnecessary and disruptive custodial sentences, which can have a profound impact on their children and create substantial knock-on issues in areas such as health and housing. I am pleased that the blueprints have helped to mitigate some of these issues, but only a radical change to how women are treated across the system will truly address the underlying causes of these challenges. That's why we continue to drive forward work on the residential women's centre, and on informing sentencers about the impact of imprisonment.

The support provided to women, children and young people through the blueprint is now more important than ever before. The cost-of-living crisis is putting pressure on families and communities across Wales, and at times like these it is crucial to ensure that women and young people are supported to access the services they need.

To close, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to mention briefly the important next steps on our vision for justice, which was set out in May in our publication 'Delivering Justice for Wales'. Our vision focuses on prevention, recognising that only in delivering social justice can we truly address the underlying reasons for pressures on the justice system. We want to talk about the shared vision we think exists for a distinctive Welsh approach to justice, and I will keep Members informed as these discussions evolve.

I would also like to acknowledge the recent publication of 'The Welsh Criminal Justice System: On the Jagged Edge' by authors at the Wales Governance Centre, Robert Jones and Richard Wyn Jones. This book will provide a useful contribution as we seek to progress this shared vision.

As justice remains at present a reserved matter, we will continue with our collaborative and productive approach to reducing crime and reoffending, to create a better Wales for all under the current system, alongside work to progress the case for the devolution of justice in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

The Welsh Government and UK Ministry of Justice published women's justice and youth justice blueprints in May 2019, to improve partnerships, as the Minister indicates, between devolved and non-devolved services, developed jointly with HM Prison and Probation Service and the Youth Justice Board. I'm sure the Minister will agree with the statement by the UK Government justice Minister at the time that:

'It is important that within the context of the existing devolution framework, we have a distinct local approach for delivery on the ground in Wales—one which provides tailored support for offenders to boost rehabilitation and diverts people away from crime for good.

'These new blueprints will build on the work we're already doing to better support offenders in Wales and help to break the cycle of offending.'

These blueprints were designed to set out the Welsh Government's key aspirations and guiding principles for women and young people in or at risk of entering the criminal justice system, focused on early intervention and prevention, and recommending a holistic and rehabilitative approach. To what extent does the Minister therefore recognise that this aligns with the UK Ministry of Justice's prison strategy White Paper to rehabilitate offenders and cut crime; the UK Government's female offender strategy to divert vulnerable offenders away from short prison sentences; and the UK Government's Turnaround scheme to catch and prevent youth offending earlier than ever, to help stop these children and young people from moving on to further, more serious offending?

The commissioning partnership, established between police and crime commissioners, His Majesty's Prison and Probation Service in Wales and Welsh Government enabled last month's evaluability assessment for the Wales women's justice and youth justice blueprints. What action plan do you therefore have or propose to deliver on its specific recommendations for evaluating the youth justice blueprint focused on working with the Youth Justice Board and Ministry of Justice to undertake a systematic baselining exercise and establish the mechanism needed to enable trends in data to be monitored over time? This is particularly pertinent where recommendations for evaluating prevention include using child and adolescent mental health services referral-to-treatment time data to show service supply versus demand. I continue to receive regular casework regarding neurodiverse children refused assessment or misdiagnosed.

What further consideration have you given to the recommendations in the 2010 Assembly Communities and Culture Committee report, 'Youth Justice: The experience of Welsh children in the Secure Estate', when I was a committee member, including that the Welsh Government engage with the UK Government towards enabling the development of new secure estate placements in Wales—obviously only for those children who can't be addressed otherwise—using the Hillside secure unit in Neath as a model, and including the development of provision in an appropriate location in north Wales?

What action plan do you have or propose to deliver on the evaluability assessment's specific recommendations for evaluating the women's justice blueprint, which calls, for example, for an expansion of the women's offending evidence base? It states:

'Baselining and tracking service user’s progress through the Blueprints’ priorities is essential. To achieve this, we recommend developing a sufficiently resourced multi-agency performance and monitoring framework prior to any evaluation.'

In consequence of the UK Government's female offender strategy, you wrote to Members stating that you'd been working closely with the UK Ministry of Justice and that one of the pilot women's residential centres, announced by the UK Government as an alternative to imprisonment, would, with your involvement, be located near Swansea in south Wales. How would this have helped vulnerable women offenders in north, mid and west Wales to access the services they need closer to home? Further, in September, plans for this centre were turned down by Swansea Council. So, what is the current state of play, where women prisoners from England can now be released from Welsh prisons for rehabilitation in centres in England but women prisoners in Wales cannot be released to equivalent centres in Wales?

Finally, the Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee recently visited His Majesty's Prison Eastwood Park in Gloucestershire, where 148 of the 340 prisoners are from Wales. On the visit, MSs were told that, when released from the prison, nine out of 10 Welsh prisoners go on to reoffend, compared to one in 10 of those from England. So, how do you account for this, where the UK Government has responsibility for criminal justice functions, including prisons, but the Welsh Government is responsible for housing, health, social care and education when these women return to Wales?

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. Of course, this is about how we are working together, the two Governments, the Welsh Government and the UK Government. In terms of developing these blueprints, the women's justice and youth justice blueprints, the way we are developing is actually shining a light on development and progress in Wales, which I think can also be useful in the rest of the UK. We have made great progress to date, because it is about collaboration with our justice partners, and it's about the key aim, which is to improve outcomes for women and young people in contact with the justice system.

It is clear that, if we empower women and young people to live healthy, crime-free lives—. There is an emphasis on prevention and diversion as we take these blueprints forward. As you said, they were published back in 2019, and they are being delivered in partnership, not just with HMPPS, the prison and probation service, but also the Youth Justice Board, and we engage very closely with the Home Office and the police and crime commissioners, but also, indeed, all of those who engage in the provision of services. That will include the devolved services in terms of local government, health, housing and education. 

I think it is important to recognise that what we are doing in Wales—and we're going to focus on it in the conference I mentioned, on Thursday—is the innovation that we are succeeding to bring forward. Obviously, the Equality and Social Justice Committee has been looking at this very carefully in terms of evidence. There's the innovative women's pathfinder, with this whole-system approach. There's the 18 to 25 early intervention service that is being delivered in South Wales and Gwent, recognising the impact of those interventions. There's the fact that, actually, we have also got an independent evaluation of the service—you asked about evaluation—showing how the service is actually supporting women to address needs and vulnerabilities. And there's the positive impact of the service that has ensued as a result of that intervention.

It is important, when we look at the youth justice blueprint, that it's actually a children-first, children's rights approach. This means working in a child-centred way rather than a service-focused way. It's about meeting the needs of children in the justice system, or for children who risk coming into it. I do think we should look at some of those key outcomes, like the forensic adolescent consultation and treatment service, delivering a really comprehensive psychologically led and trauma-informed model, as I mentioned, to youth offending teams in Wales. We've now got an effective practice award, which has raised the level of practice across Wales.

You did refer to the small homes project and the fact that we're working together to find a way in which we can see children in the welfare and justice systems in Wales fully co-located in the same building or site. We were in accord when I met with the then Minister in the Ministry of Justice to look at the way forward when we actually move forward. Obviously, Hillside has had a very important role to play, our children’s centre, and Julie Morgan, the Deputy Minister for Social Services, and myself have visited regularly. We’ve put more money into that, but we are now looking at the small homes shadow project board, looking at the way we can have these combined small homes fully co-located in the same building or site. Of course, these small homes mean that we will be able to then give that provision across Wales, and not just as it is at the moment, located in south Wales.

I want to just give an update in terms of the women's residential centre; you asked about that. This is about providing a more holistic trauma-informed approach to delivering services for women. It is a pilot; we are seeking to look at the pilot as an alternative to imprisonment. It is crucial that we look to this as an opportunity in Wales to provide that pilot project, to look at the outcomes of it when we establish it. It will be very important that, as a pilot, it can then be replicated. Of course, Mark, we've discussed this in questions from yourself before. Because I would like to see that pilot replicated in other parts of Wales, of course, but we need to get the women's residential centre established.

In the meantime, we have some good developments in terms of the female offending blueprint in terms of accommodation and support initiatives for women in the justice system. I look forward to the outcome of the report that’s been commissioned—independent research from Wrexham Glyndŵr University in collaboration with Llamau to better understand the accommodation needs and barriers of women from Wales at different points in the criminal justice journey. We hope to have that report shared with us in the next few weeks and months. I also look forward to playing my part in visiting the new ONE Women’s Centre in HMP Eastwood Park. But also, there's going to be another centre run by the Nelson Trust, which is running the one in HM Eastwood Park, in Cardiff as well, providing that all-important women's centre day service approach, which can enable women to actually access who have got sentences but are not custodial, who can actually be able to then live in the community and benefit from all the support services that are provided.

So, we are making progress; there's more to come, but I think just particularly in relation to youth offending and the Youth Justice Board, this children's rights approach has been widely recognised outside of Wales. Youth offending numbers are going down, and I think it's the early intervention and enhanced case management that are having such an impact. But it's also about devolved services engaging fully, which I think makes a very good case for devolving youth justice to Wales.

Thank you, Minister. In your statement, and we've heard about the inquiry of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, and I'm a member of that committee—. I had an extremely valuable experience on that visit to HMP Eastwood Park. Because that's where I was able to understand in full the implications of the way that Welsh women are disadvantaged by the criminal justice system by being imprisoned, and being imprisoned in England, and the clear discrimination that they face based on their gender, which undermines rehabilitation programmes, and the way that wholly inadequate and unnecessary short sentences cause damage and destruction to lives and to families of some of the most vulnerable people in our society, who have been exploited and, often, abused, as you mentioned.

We heard from the governor there that the average sentence given to female prisoners at Eastwood Park was 42 days—long enough for a woman from Wales to lose her house, her family, her medical treatment programme, but not long enough for a woman from Wales to be able to benefit from programmes that could support, strengthen and help her to be free from harmful behaviours, to help to tackle mental health and health issues, and opportunities to deal with the trauma and violence that she has suffered.

Minister, it really brought home to me how that jagged edge of intersecting, unaligned, but shared devolved and reserved powers and responsibilities over which the criminal justice system operates in Wales is such a sharp one for women, which, of course, has been demonstrated so clearly by the book published recently by Professor Richard Wyn Jones and Dr Robert Jones of the Wales Governance Centre, which you acknowledged as a useful contribution. The questions that their book asks about the feasibility of doing joined-up policy in such a complex legislative landscape, with two Governments controlling different areas and levers and accountability, are, indeed, crucial to consider when evaluating and progressing strategies like the blueprint and, indeed, the devolution of justice to Wales.

The recent evaluation assessment to which you referred in your statement underlines the authors' point, I think, regarding the lack of disaggregated data. I was in a seminar over recess where they were telling me that they were having to use freedom of information requests in order to get some of the data they needed to do their analysis. This is specifically the case as regards the outcomes for Welsh women in the criminal justice system. So, what is being done to address this?

In his written evidence to our committee's inquiry, Dr Robert Jones stated that, since the female offending blueprint was published in 2019, for example, the UK Government, in pursuit of its own policy priorities, has unveiled a series of criminal justice initiatives and reforms that, according to its own projections, will undermine the pledges set out in the female offending blueprint. This includes the blueprint's commitment to reduce the number of women in the Welsh criminal justice system. So, Minister, do you agree with that analysis, and what conversations is the Welsh Government having with UK Government about the effect of its policy priorities on the aims of the shared blueprint as regards female offending specifically?

It was also extremely worrying yesterday, in the Equality and Social Justice Committee evidence session on this inquiry, to hear the chief executive of the Magistrates Association share with us that 50 per cent of his members, in a survey they'd carried out, were not familiar with the blueprint and its aims. We heard that magistrates, even at senior levels, who are, after all, as sentencers a key linchpin in this strategy, didn't feel they had been involved in the blueprint. Minister, could you explain this, and could you tell us how you intend to ensure that the voices of all the stakeholders are being heard and how the aims of the blueprint are being communicated to and incorporated in all aspects of the agencies involved in its implementation and evaluation?

And a key one for me, and I think I probably speak on behalf of some of my fellow members of that committee: following the conversations I had at HMP Eastwood Park, I was asked, 'Will what we've told you this afternoon make a difference? Will things change?' Can you please tell us how any progress is being communicated to and felt by the women who are living on that sharp, jagged edge? Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. I do have to say that I really look forward to the outcome of your inquiry and the recommendations that will come forward to Welsh Government, but also because it will be a report that will be shared much more widely, not just with Welsh Government, but also with the UK Government, in terms of all of the partners within the UK Government, and the criminal justice system in terms of sentencers. This is also where my engagement with the Counsel General is so important, as we look at this jagged edge, which we absolutely recognise, and that's why 'Delivering Justice for Wales' was such an important paper to help lead us forward and, obviously, that's something that we're working with and raising with UK Government Ministers separately. 

I just want to go to that point that you made—will this make a difference—because I know that you were going to HMP Eastwood Park and, indeed, HMP Styal, which I think your members of the committee went to. Went I went to both those prisons, you cannot forget what the women said to us. The shock of why they are in there in the first place—and I mentioned the statistics earlier on about the domestic violence and abuse; the trauma that they'd faced in their lives—and then the situation that they were in in terms of the provision in terms of rehabilitative provision and circumstances to move forward.

The important thing—and this is why the female offending blueprint—. Women's justice is what this is about. I just have to say that there are six guiding principles behind the women's justice blueprint, and the first one is the involvement of women with lived experience and a commitment to co-production. So, we must demonstrate that that is happening. My statement today is a part of that scrutiny, and I would want to be sharing this. I am visiting HMP Eastwood Park in January with the Counsel General, and so I will be able to speak directly to—some of the women that you met may have left prison now, but it is important that we have those discussions. But also that the other principles are evidence led, and the evidence that we're getting together and the access to data is critically important. This is a big issue for the Ministry of Justice. We want that data. We've actually got an agreement with them that we should set up parameters for the data that we need. It should not have to have been that Dr Robert Jones had to go through the FOI route to get that information. That data now, we've had a recognition that that needs to be provided.

Person centred, trauma informed and gender responsive are crucial—these are all guiding principles. But the crucial thing, really, in terms of delivery of justice, is better integration of devolved and non-devolved services. And if you look at it, yes, the provision of services for women in custody is the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice, but the legislative line of responsibility changes from English services to Welsh ones when they've left prison and when they're in the communities in Wales. And therefore, health, education and substance misuse are the responsibility of Welsh local health boards and local authorities.

There are many things that have been developed, and you will have heard of them from your visits and from your inquiry. The accommodation pathway co-ordinators at each probation delivery unit across Wales are really important in terms of the pathway to secure accommodation. I've mentioned the Visiting Mums service. I've mentioned domestic violence. The Safer Wales independent domestic and sexual violence adviser—that's a post in HMP Eastwood Park and Styal, and that's helping women resettle back in Wales. But also, the referrals coming through that route in terms of offender managers resettlement team and the ONE Women's Centre. Pobl, providing the prison link in Cymru south—you'll be aware of that work with Welsh women, to look at all aspects of accommodation needs. And I have mentioned the research that's been done with Llamau and Wrexham Glyndŵr University as well, to look at these wider accommodation needs. I hope we will get that response back in time for your inquiry outcome as well.

But I think that it is important that we have got the third sector very involved—Safer Wales, the Nelson Trust and, indeed, in terms of the women's pathfinder, many other organisations—Newport Women's Aid, at a local level—. The fact that, also, we are looking at the needs of ethnic minorities as well—. Specific work is being undertaken, with £2.5 million for female referrers into the pathfinder service. So, I hope that this gives you some confidence that we are moving forward with that jagged edge, with the devolved and non-devolved, with a key commitment to multi-agency working and investing. That investment comes from the Welsh Government as well as the UK Government. It also comes from our police and crime commissioners and the third sector. 

With the very short time, Minister, I just wanted to say thank you for bringing this today. I would say that, on the whole, the response that I have heard, anyway, to the women's justice blueprint has been positive, as well as the Visiting Mums project. But I just wanted to build, really, on what my colleague Sioned Williams has said. When we visited HMP Eastwood Park recently, we were told that 100 per cent of the women in there were victims before they got caught up in the criminal justice system; 60 per cent of them, at the moment, are Welsh women.

So, there are just three things that I wanted to raise really quickly. We were told by the women that they have no access to an elected representative. They have no way of e-mailing out; you can only e-mail in. So, if that can be looked into urgently, I think that that would make a tremendous difference to them. They have no access either to Buvidal; they have to have methadone every day, it makes them very sick and it's much more difficult for them to stay clean. They are told that they can't get that, unlike the English prisoners in there, because they are Welsh. They also cannot get access to residential units immediately after they come out of prison, like women in England do, which has prevented them from reoffending.

Finally, housing and accommodation are probably the main anxiety that they have. I spoke to one woman who was due to be released from HMP Eastwood Park on 21 December. My initial reaction was, like, 'Oh.' And she was, like, 'Yeah, you'd think I'd be happy about going home at Christmas.' But, she said, 'I have no housing lined up. I have to get myself from here to Swansea, to the council offices, a couple of days before Christmas and beg them for accommodation.' Only four of the 22 local authorities now receive—[Inaudible.]—funding; the others have to be signed up to it as soon as possible. So, if that could be looked into, that would be wonderful. Thank you, Minister.

Diolch yn fawr. I'm sure that I will get these questions as a result of recommendations from the committee. Clearly, there should be access to their elected representatives from their home base, their home town. I’m sure that, as constituency Members, many of you have represented—. But the women need to know who they are. So, I think that that’s information—that's something that we can take back straight away—in terms of their situations.

I think that the healthcare support and initiatives are crucially important, and we are looking at that. There’s an agreement for a dedicated women’s resource with the new health and justice co-ordinator team. That’s also going to link up with local health boards. There’s already a partnership agreement for prison health.

Also, just to make sure that people understand: I mention the jagged edge again, in terms of the responsibilities between local government and between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, and that we look at those issues in terms of access to health. Indeed, I have mentioned health education, substance misuse. I understand that substance misuse treatments like Buvidal have been available for patients, but we need to identify if this is not happening. It is available outside of prison before it’s prescribed in prison, so we need to ensure that there is a recognition of the needs of Welsh women in prisons. But your feedback from your visit to HMP Eastwood Park is very valuable, and I look forward to visiting myself in due course.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you. It's over 15 years since the Corston report recommended that most women should not be going to prison, and that there need to be community sentences for these people. So, we need to be pursuing this at pace. Obviously, I would prefer it if we had a devolved criminal justice system. As the 'Justice at the Jagged Edge in Wales' report makes clear, this is the only Parliament and Executive that does not have a judiciary alongside it, and, for all sorts of reasons, that’s a really, really bad idea. So, we really do need to rectify that.

I very much welcome the work that’s being done to prevent women going into prison and to give them early support to prevent and make sure that that doesn’t happen. You mentioned the numbers who’ve completed the gender- and trauma-informed training package for those working in the justice system, and I just wondered if you are in a position to tell us how many have completed that training from Styal and Eastwood Park, because one of the issues that arose at Styal was that there was a severe shortage of staff, which meant that even the most basic things were sometimes postponed, such as the video-conferences that women have with their children. So, it’s really—the system is completely broken, and we absolutely need to fix it as fast as possible.

In terms of women on short sentences, a completely pointless thing, the revolving door works fantastically with short sentences; they just come back in. So, I want to know a little bit more about your conversations with the police, if possible, on the differences—and with the magistrates—and on why it is that, for example, Gwent sends 88 per cent of the people it sentences on short sentences, whereas in south Wales it’s only 55 per cent. That’s a significant difference in areas that are adjacent to each other. So, why is that, and how can we bring that down?

Thank you, Jenny.

And—

Thank you, Jenny.

Can I just say I will take that point up? It is something that I’m sure will be raised. It’s not for the Welsh Government. It is criminal justice; it is about justice and local justice and justice for women in Wales, and I’ll take that up in terms of geographical difference. But also we should be following up Jean Corston’s report. We have to have an alternative to prison for women, we want to reduce custodial sentences, and we want to make sure that our VAWDASV strategy actually helps to actually prevent women actually engaging in or being pulled into the criminal justice system. I thank you for your support for devolving justice to Wales.

Thank you, Minister.