So, I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, Hannah Blythyn.

Motion NDM8141 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:

Agrees to the general principles of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill.

Motion NDM8142 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

For the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

Motions moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to start by thanking the Senedd committees, Members and staff for their scrutiny of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill so far.

Much hard work goes into the Senedd's scrutiny role, almost all of it behind the scenes, especially in relation to legislation. This is my first Bill as responsible Minister, and I wish to put on record my thanks to the committees for their careful Stage 1 consideration and considered recommendations. 

I'd like to start by addressing the Equality and Social Justice Committee recommendations and welcoming the recommendation by a majority of the Members that the general principles of the Bill should be agreed by the Senedd. 

Recommendation 2 in the ESJ committee report asks that the Government be clear about what we are seeking to achieve through the Bill, and set out metrics and outcomes against which progress can be measured. I'm happy to accept this in principle and to accept recommendation 20, which urged us to ensure that any reporting arrangements that we place on our partners be proportionate, and avoid duplication. My officials are working with stakeholders to agree the indicators and outcomes necessary to monitor the impact of this legislation, although that work will take time and depend, to a certain extent, on the issues that the social partnership council decides to focus on. 

Recommendations 10, 14 and 24 deal with the guidance that will be issued to partners ahead of implementation. The Government accepts 10 and 14, and that guidance will be clear on the objectives that we are pursuing and the expectations and duties we are placing on ourselves and our partners. Recommendation 24 asks that we publish statutory guidance in draft form for consultation, including with the Senedd. We accept this in principle, on the basis that we will certainly consult with stakeholders, but we do not consider that there should be a duty on Welsh Ministers to consult with the Senedd in relation to the production of statutory guidance, something already undertaken by Government in consultation with all relevant stakeholders. This helps to ensure that any guidance is fit for purpose and targeted to the audience at which it is aimed. 

Recommendations 3, 5 and 6 relate to the operation of the social partnership council. The Government will not be accepting these recommendations as, in our view, they will impinge on the autonomy and independence of the council and potentially undermine the principles of social partnership working in practice. Terms of reference are not required since the Bill itself sets out the functions of the council on how it is to be consulted. In keeping with the social partnership approach, it is not for Government to tell the council how many sub-groups it should establish and what matters they should deal with, or the approach it should take to its work. These matters are really for the council itself to decide.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I am, however, happy to accept recommendation 4. We accept in principle recommendation 7 and accept 8. Regarding the membership of the council, I share the committee's view that membership should be broad and representative. Work has already started with social partners to ensure that the nomination process of the social partnership council reflects this, and I will update the committee on the outcome of that work ahead of Stage 2. 

Recommendation 9 relates to the social partnership duty in section 16 of the Bill. The committee's view is that more is needed in terms of enforcement or compliance with this duty. The drafting of this recommendation asks that I explain the Government's position on these matters, and I'm happy to do so again today. I set out in evidence to the committee that the section 16 duty requires public bodies to seek rather than to achieve consensus or compromise with their recognised trade unions or their staff representatives in setting their well-being objectives. If, for whatever reason, it is not possible to reach agreement despite best efforts, the duty to seek consensus or compromise will nonetheless have been discharged. There would, in effect, be nothing to mediate between the two parties involved. 

Where there may be concerns about how a public body goes about discharging its statutory functions, the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales has powers to investigate complaints against public bodies, including complaints of maladministration, and the Auditor General for Wales's role includes examining how public bodies manage and spend public money, including how they achieve value in the delivery of public services. Ultimately, the actions of public bodies may be challenged in the courts. 

Recommendations 11, 12 and 21 refer to the inter-relationship between the Bill and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the role of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales. A proposed amendment to the 2015 Act, which replaces the reference to 'decent work' with 'fair work', will not change either the remit or functions of the commissioner, and there is no need for us to amend our Bill to duplicate the duty that public bodies have under the WFG Act to maximise their contribution to all well-being goals in the exercise of their functions, which already includes the globally responsible Wales well-being goal. For these reasons, we do not accept recommendations 11 or 12.

On recommendation 21, I'm happy to confirm that we will provide more detail on how procurement investigations will interact with existing powers held by the future generations commissioner, although this will not be possible until the UK Government's procurement reforms are finalised.

Recommendation 13 asks the Welsh Government to hold discussions with the Office for National Statistics and the Charity Commission to determine whether making further education and higher education institutions and registered social landlords subject to the socially responsible public procurement duty would negatively impact on their national accounting status and/or charitable status, with a view to bringing them within the scope of the Bill should this not be the case. I accept this recommendation. Further discussions will be held, though I should add that there are other factors, including that some of these bodies may operate outside of Wales, that also influence the discussion.

Turning to recommendation 15, asking that we place a duty on Welsh Ministers to set targets for the proportion of procurement spend spent in Wales and spent with specific types of suppliers, such as small and medium-sized enterprises or social enterprises, the Government accepts the recommendation in principle and we agree with the premise that we should be using public procurement to support the Welsh economy and this could be achieved through setting targets, as reflected in the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. I will continue to hold further discussions with partners in relation to this recommendation, and update the committee ahead of Stage 2.

Recommendations 16 to 19 deal with the socially responsible public procurement part of the Bill. The Government accepts all of these recommendations, subject to the further discussions relating to recommendation 15, and will make the necessary amendments to the Bill as well as the explanatory memorandum and relevant guidance.

I'm afraid I cannot accept recommendation 22 and 23 relating to the procurement investigation clauses, as it would not be appropriate to require Welsh Ministers to consult the auditor general before the announcement of every investigation. Nor will I be bringing forward amendments at Stage 2 detailing the criteria that would trigger an investigation under section 41 on the face of the Bill. This would be far too restrictive. A non-exhaustive list of criteria will be set out in the guidance, which is the appropriate place for it. 

Recommendations 25 and 26 ask us to do further work to refine the costs set out in the regulatory impact assessment for the Bill. I accept these recommendations. That work is already under way, and a revised RIA will be laid ahead of Stage 3.  

The final two recommendations from the Equality and Social Justice Committee relate to the previous shadow social partnership council. Whilst I'm not in a position to agree to the publication of all of the papers, as suggested by the committee in recommendation 27, I do accept recommendation 28 in principle, and will ensure that the committee is provided with a summary report, which I hope Members will find helpful.

Turning now to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee report, the first of its recommendations is that a signpost to the definition of 'decisions of a strategic nature' that resides in guidance made under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 be added to the Bill. The Government does not consider it appropriate to include within the Bill's interpretation section a definition that is set out elsewhere only in statutory guidance. The guidance referred to is issued under a separate power in another Act of a specific purpose, which may not align with the duties in the Bill. The Bill provides the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to public bodies on the operation of the social partnership duty, and that is the appropriate way in which to deal with matters like this, so we are not able to accept recommendation 1.

I accept recommendations 2, 4 and 5 and will ensure that the necessary changes are made to the Bill and the guidance. We do not accept recommendation 6, which asked that we make a draft version of the outsourcing and workforce code available before Stage 3. Our intention is that the code be developed in social partnership and in consultation with stakeholders. We will therefore engage these groups, including public bodies, providers of services and unions from the outset, rather than publishing a draft, then consulting on it.

Recommendations 3, 7 and 8 all question the choice of procedure we have proposed for making the code and the regulations. In relation to the outsourcing and workforce code, as I mentioned earlier in relation to the ESJ Committee's recommendation 24, the issuing of such guidance is a function of the Welsh Ministers, which, for reasons outlined above, will be subject to full consultation with stakeholders, which I consider will give an appropriate opportunity for input by those who are closest to the subject matter of the code, and so I do not intend to amend the Bill to make the code subject to the negative procedure. Recommendations 7 and 8 relate to the regulations we are bringing forward under section 38 of the Bill. We are confident that we have applied the correct approach in relation to each, and so do not intend to support these recommendations. However, I will write to the committee to provide more detail on this.

Finally, I wish to apologise to the committee for an errant reference to a convention in my letter of 15 October. This was picked up in the committee report under recommendation 9, and I wish to put on the record that this reference was included in error and acknowledge that no such convention exists.

Moving on to the Finance Committee report, I am pleased to accept all the committee's recommendations, other than 3 and 9. The Government will, as mentioned earlier, make a revised version of the RIA available in good time ahead of Stage 3. The two recommendations I am unable to accept ask for a level of detail on the effects of the socially responsible procurement provisions that is not realistically achievable in the time between now and Stage 3. There is a limit to what is possible, in terms of analysis and cost estimates, prior to any new arrangements coming into force and then having sufficient time to bed in. So, I hope the committee will understand that, whilst of course I appreciate the spirit in which these recommendations were put forward, and put on record my assurance that every effort will be made to improve those elements of the RIA that can be made more accurate between now and Stage 3, ultimately, exercises such as these can only ever provide us with best estimates of costs and benefits.

In closing, Llywydd, I want to again thank all Members of the Senedd and Commission staff who have engaged so constructively with the legislation. I look forward to hearing from the Chairs of the scrutiny committees, from other Members from across the Siambr, and to continue to work collaboratively and constructively on the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill.

The Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, Jenny Rathbone.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you, Hannah, for your whistle-stop tour of the response to our recommendations, and we'll obviously have to consider them in detail subsequently. But we very much thank the Deputy Minister for engaging constructively during the Stage 1 process, as well as those 31 organisations and individuals who submitted written evidence, all the witnesses who gave evidence to the committee, both employers and employee representatives, as well as experts involved in the public procurement of goods and services, as well as, I must mention, the excellent support we've had from the Research Service and the committee clerks who supported our work.

The Bill's overarching aim, to improve and enhance public services through partnership working, fair work and socially responsible procurement, is one that the committee supports, in general, the principles of this Bill, apart from one Member. But the Welsh Government does need to set out how it intends to achieve clear and tangible outcomes in more detail, some of which the Deputy Minister may have highlighted earlier today. Placing social partnership on a legal footing would mirror the situation in several neighbouring European countries who have strong workforces and productive economies. And it was notable that representatives of large organisations supported the principles of the Bill, but I can understand why representatives of small businesses didn't see much virtue in it, as they have much less difficulty communicating with their workforces.

The creation of a tripartite social partnership council is at the heart of this legislation. Section 5(2) states that the First Minister must seek nominations for worker representatives from the Wales TUC. You perhaps won't be surprised to know that the Wales TUC and its affiliates supported this process for nominating worker representatives to the council, however unions not affiliated to the Wales TUC and others held different views. Both the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association argued strongly for the Bill to be amended, and the RCN told us that the Bill as drafted could lead to non-TUC-affiliated unions being left out of social partnership in Wales and reduce their ability to co-operate and collaborate. As we spend half the Welsh Government budget on our health service, and this sector has a high concentration of non-affiliated unions, that anxiety was a key concern of the committee. So, I'm hoping that recommendation 7, calling for an amendment to the Bill to place a requirement on the Wales TUC to nominate a certain proportion of non-affiliated union members to the social partnership council will go forward.

The approach to public procurement envisaged by this Bill should keep more money in circulation locally, thus helping to build more resilient communities and more vibrant foundational economies. To be truly bold, however, we want to see measurable targets set for procurement, including the proportion of public money spent in Wales. Otherwise, we can't see whether this Bill has had the impact that we hope it will. So, recommendation 15 sets out the committee's view that the Bill should be amended to place a requirement on Ministers to set targets for public procurement. It recognises also that data gathering and the mechanisms needed to underpin effective targets may need time to work through, and recommends therefore that a medium-term time frame of three years should be appropriate to achieve this. 

I think many environmental organisations will be disappointed at the Minister's rejection of our recommendation 12, which would ensure that public bodies are not contributing to the destruction of rainforests. I appreciate that public bodies under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 must accept their global responsibilities, but I think it would be difficult to expect that at the moment we are not importing stuff that has been created from tearing down rainforests and generally causing more global warming.

When we're implementing the Act, we must see the links that it has with the Welsh Government's broader policy objectives, particularly the transition to net zero. From the response to the energy and food crises to the reform of agriculture and sustainable land management, this Bill has the potential to provide a framework for action and collaboration across public bodies. 

In order to realise the Bill's ambitions, the Welsh Government will have to work with public bodies, industry and others to build capacity, capability and cultural change. The committee heard concerns that many public bodies face difficulties in recruiting procurement staff, hollowed out by years of austerity, and getting hold of such individuals was described as being like hen's teeth. This can lead to serious capacity problems and inconsistencies in approaches across public bodies.

This Bill creates a centre of excellence for procurement, but its role and the role of the social partnership council's procurement sub-committee need clarification. In particular, the Welsh Government needs to set out how it intends to ensure that the centre of excellence and the procurement sub-group will drive collaboration and change. There is also an issue about whether further education institutions, higher education institutions and registered social landlords should be required to follow Welsh Government procurement legislation in the same way as public sector contracting authorities, but I fully accept that we cannot be risking undermining the charitable status of some of these bodies and their important independence. But, nevertheless, I think it's very important that the Welsh Government and the Deputy Minister have accepted recommendation 13. I very much welcome that.

In terms of the guidance, we very much heard from stakeholders who work in the industry about the importance of good guidance playing a pivotal role in implementation, and I know that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has also made a similar recommendation to ours. So, it would be useful to understand the detail of exactly how the Deputy Minister intends to grasp the spirit of those amendments, but not necessarily to set it in legislation. Otherwise, I very much look forward to Stage 2 of the Bill and to seeing how the Deputy Minister intends to strengthen the Bill in its detailed recommendations.

Huw Irranca-Davies now, the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Thank you, Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate on the general principles of the Welsh Government's third Bill of this sixth Senedd. In our report, we came to one conclusion, and we made nine recommendations. To start, I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for writing to us with further information to assist our scrutiny of the Bill, in lieu of the evidence session that was cancelled in September.

As the Senedd will know, we take a very close look at the inclusion of powers in Bills to make subordinate legislation. So, Llywydd, this Bill contains five powers for the Welsh Ministers to make regulations, one power for the Welsh Ministers to issue a code, and two powers to issue directions.

Now, a number of our recommendations relate to our consistent belief that the scrutiny procedures attached to some of these powers do not provide Members of the Senedd with sufficient opportunities for scrutiny. So, recommendations 7 and 8 of our report call on the Deputy Minister to table amendments to the Bill to apply the affirmative procedure to powers within subsections (3)(a) and (3)(b) of section 38 of the Bill. Both of these powers can be used to amend primary legislation, and we considered the power within subsection (3)(a) in particular to be a wide, unlimited Henry VIII power, and we have a dim view, generally, on Henry VIII powers.

Three of our recommendations relate to the duty within section 32 of the Bill for the Welsh Ministers to publish a public services outsourcing and workforce code. To us, this code will play a central role in ensuring socially responsible public procurement. So, we therefore recommended that the Deputy Minister should table an amendment to the Bill to apply the negative procedure to the power to issue the code and any future revisions to it. This would be instead of no procedure being applied as it currently stands.

We also recommended that there should be a duty to consult on the code included within the Bill, and that the Deputy Minister should issue a draft version of it ahead of the start of Stage 3 of the Bill, which will help our consideration and other committees' consideration.

The Deputy Minister told us that all statutory guidance issued under the Bill will be developed in partnership and will be subject to consultation. So, since this is the case, we recommended that the Minister should table an amendment to the Bill to include a duty to consult on guidance issued under section 43 and any future revisions to that guidance.

Our two remaining recommendations relate to the Bill's accessibility. The Bill includes the phrase 'decisions of a strategic nature'. The Bill does not provide a definition of this phrase, but a definition is provided within the statutory guidance on the socioeconomic duty made under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. So, for reasons of accessibility, we therefore recommended that the Bill should include a signpost to this definition.

The Bill also amends section 4 of the well-being of future generations Act to substitute 'fair work' for 'decent work'. The Deputy Minister told us that the Fair Work Commission's definition of 'fair work' has been widely accepted. To help people understand this term, we therefore recommended that the Fair Work Commission's definition should be included within non-statutory guidance for stakeholders and bodies subject to the duties under the well-being of future generations Act.

Now, before I bring my remarks to a close, I'd like to highlight the only conclusion we came to in our report—the only specific conclusion. As Members will know, Senedd committees are currently considering legislative consent memoranda laid in respect of the UK Government's Procurement Bill—the UK Government's Procurement Bill—and we understand that more LCMs are on the way soon. We believe that the Bill we're considering today provided an obvious avenue for the Welsh Government to include provisions to reform Welsh procurement law, rather than using a UK Government Bill and the consent process.

So, Deputy Minister, we look forward to hearing your responses to the recommendations we've made in respect of this Bill. One point, though: it is disappointing for the committee that a Government response wasn't made available in time today to inform today's debate, given its importance to the legislative process, so I'd be grateful also if the Deputy Minister could address that point in your remarks and responses.

One final point, Llywydd, and I have to take off my committee Chair hat for this particular moment, but I know I can't stand again. Putting on my hat as a co-operator and a member of the co-operative Senedd group, and I refer to my register of interests, I wonder just whether—. The fact is that Bills like this come along very few and far between within any Senedd term, but would the Minister, separate from the points that I've just made as committee Chair, consider meeting with the authors of the Centre for Local Economic Strategies report on employee ownership in Wales, to discuss whether their proposals could be incorporated in the Bill to further strengthen employee ownership in Wales? We're doing a lot on employee ownership already, but a discussion on that would be very useful indeed. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Peter Fox now on behalf of the Finance Committee.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to contribute to this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee. We have made 11 recommendations in total, but given the time available, I will focus on our main concerns.

Whilst we are supportive of the aim of the Bill, a key concern for us was the lack of data and the number of unknown costs contained in the regulatory impact assessment. This consequently made it difficult for the committee to assess the overall financial implications of the Bill. We have on numerous occasions expressed our view that RIAs should contain the best estimate possible. As a result, I am sure that it will not come as a surprise to the Deputy Minister and her ministerial colleagues that many of our recommendations call on the Welsh Government to undertake further work assessing the costs. It is also disappointing that the committee has to continually make these points, and it urges the Deputy Minister to listen to, and act upon, our recommendations.

The Chair of the Finance Committee has previously spoken in the Chamber about our concerns of rising inflation on the cost of legislation. His Majesty's Treasury's Green Book says that the effects of general inflation should be removed when estimating the cost of Bills. However, given the 40-year-high inflation rate and the uncertainty that the Welsh Government's block grant will rise at the same level, we believe that the RIA should take into account inflation when calculating potential costs. The Bill has a five-year appraisal period and therefore rising inflation could lead to additional costs being borne by the public and private sectors. We recommend that the Deputy Minister updates the RIA to model costs based on forecasted inflation data for the duration of the Bill's appraisal period.

Turning to the costs relating to the socially responsible procurement duty contained in the Bill, the RIA notes that the public and private sectors would incur costs of £20.5 million and £6.5 million respectively. There are a number of possible scenarios identified that could arise from the increased expectation on delivering socially responsible public procurement outcomes, including wider use of sustainably sourced materials; staff receiving more training and better terms and conditions; and staff time in attending additional training.

We asked whether attempts had been made to model the possible scenarios to determine potential costs, and the Deputy Minister told us that as the Bill covers a huge range of public bodies, she did not have the data at present to measure the baseline. As a result, our recommendation 3 calls for further work to be undertaken to assess the costs to public and private bodies relating to this duty. This work should include a sensitivity analysis to show the potential range of costs too. However, I am disappointed, as I understand that the Minister hasn't accepted this recommendation.

On the provisions in the Bill relating to bid costs and real living wages, the committee felt that an increased focus on socially responsible public procurement outcomes could, in the short term, increase bid prices. We are therefore concerned that businesses may respond to the increase by reducing employees or passing the cost on to customers. To mitigate this, we recommend that the Welsh Government ensures that the additional requirements placed on businesses are proportionate, and that the statutory guidance provides the necessary support for procurement and contract management staff in Wales.

With an increased focus on fair work, another likely additional cost would be incurred through the increased adoption of the real living wage throughout supply chains. Whilst the Welsh Government cannot mandate the real living wage, the Deputy Minister told us she does expect that the Bill will increase the uptake as one aspect of better employment practices. We very much welcome the increased focus on fair work and we hope that public and private bodies will adopt the real living wage, however, this is an area we would like to keep an eye on, and our recommendation 7 asks that the post-implementation review for this Bill should include information on the uptake of the real living wage as a result of this legislation.

The construction contract management costs are the most significant allocations made in the RIA, with a particular focus on large construction contracts with values above £2 million. Whilst the provisions in this Bill will place additional requirements on organisations managing contracts and additional costs, we hope it will lead to improvements in contracts across sectors and prevent unethical practices, such as modern slavery, from happening in supply chains.

Nevertheless, we are concerned about the impact this will have on small and medium-sized businesses. We recommended that specific support is provided to SMEs to enable them to participate in contracts—to be found in recommendation 8—and that further analysis of how this duty impacts on SMEs is provided—recommendation 9. Again, I'm disappointed—or we will be disappointed—if that recommendation 9 hasn't been accepted.

Finally, Llywydd, as I mentioned at the start of my contribution, we are disappointed with the limited data available on the financial outcomes of the Bill. For this reason, we recommend that the Welsh Government publishes a mid-term report as well as a final five-year evaluation report, which should outline the financial costs incurred as a result of the Bill’s implementation. Diolch. 

Right, I'm trying to land this plane by 6 o'clock, so that those of us who are still in the Chamber can reach somewhere to watch kick-off by 7 o'clock. So, of the speakers I have in front of me, I'll be keeping you to five minutes. Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd. Concerning the general principles of this Bill, I think it is fair to say that this Government has completely failed to communicate what problem it is trying to solve and why it is implementing this legislation. The Welsh Government is stating that it wants to put social partnership on a statutory footing to improve public procurement processes, but it's not made any credible assessment of the existing social partnership practices in Wales. Thus, we do not know the extent to which collaboration already exists, how this statutory legislation will affect the creation of social partnerships that grow organically from a mutual need, and therefore, this Government is creating legislation to provide a solution to an unknown problem.

In preparing for this debate, I spoke with outside bodies who will be affected by this Bill, and they are at a complete loss as to why this is needed. They do not understand how it will benefit the workplace, since the future generations Bill already places considerable responsibility on public bodies to incorporate health and well-being goals into their planning. They already have procurement strategies that aim to purchase locally where possible, and they already work effectively with trade unions. They also believe that this Bill will either end up having no real value or positive outcome and become another red-tape tick-box exercise in duplication, or it will have the potential to considerably disrupt already well-established procurement practices, by placing onerous reporting duties on small independent suppliers who—perversely—the Welsh Government are aiming to help.

I fully understand that this Government is focused on helping local businesses access Government procurement contracts to help create jobs locally, but procurement is just not that simple. It's increasingly unlikely that local businesses will be able to supply the range and quantity of items that all these public bodies need. Moreover, by placing a target on the quantity of goods and services procured locally, this Government is inadvertently creating the conditions for middlemen in the procurement chain who will be based in Wales but source goods from outside Wales, which will of course lead to increased costs for public bodies. It is stated in the report that:

‘Implementing the Act…will require the Welsh Government to work with the devolved public sector to build capacity, capability and cultural change at a time where budgets are likely to be squeezed’, which is, in my mind, quite contradictory, because building capacity and capability takes investment. If you’re going to increase the capacity of public bodies to procure locally then you have to consider that costs will become higher because smaller local businesses will have higher running costs.

More broadly, this Bill has several serious flaws. The statutory requirement for all public bodies to reach a consensus with trade unions on setting their well-being objectives is very likely to have problematic consequences. If a trade union has, for instance, unaffordable well-being targets, the public body would be obliged to negotiate proposals they would not be able to afford to implement, and thus fail to find consensus and fail to meet its statutory obligations. There is no formal mechanism whatsoever in this Bill to help public bodies circumvent this issue, which will undoubtedly cause serious problems, because whether or not consensus has been discharged is purely subjective. Furthermore, the Bill has no way of enforcing these legal obligations or quantifying the success or failure of this legislation, and it has no way of measuring what impact this legislation will have, because like I’ve previously stated, this Government has not even done the basics in conducting any quantifiable assessment of current social partnership practices in Wales.

Turning to the social partnership council, there are several inconsistent intentions here. The Bill hinges on the council enabling a voice for everyone, but if this was a true social partnership it would be ensuring that every voice, no matter how small, is heard and has a valid seat at the table, which, as the Deputy Minister has recognised, is unachievable. This Bill will therefore likely favour the largest groups involved, who will in turn have the potential to become just another echo chamber for what the Welsh Government wants to hear. This Government needs to understand that businesses fundamentally do not organise themselves in the same way as trade unions or Governments, and creating this social partnership legislation will place a degree of inflexibility on them that will result in them not being agile enough to respond to fast-moving economic situations. Moreover, it is incorrect to think that businesses need Government to bring them together in social partnership. Companies will naturally look for and create social partnerships if it helps their business and if market conditions favour it.

Finally, I believe that this Government is creating this Bill with the misguided notion that it will provide some benefit to Wales whilst completely ignoring the evidence and pleas for what is needed. Businesses right across Wales are reporting that they are limited by the skills of employees, and this is the biggest barrier to their growth. Businesses I have spoken with generally want to drive up rates of pay for their staff, and they want to support them and improve working conditions because it is in their interests to do so, but they are limited by their ability, not because they can’t access public procurement contracts, but because they cannot access a wide enough skill set. This legislation—

You need to bring your comments to a close now.

Thank you, Llywydd. On these grounds, I therefore encourage Members not to support the general principles of this Bill.

Thank you. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thanks to Jenny Rathbone as Chair of the ESJ committee, my fellow Members and the clerking team and research service for their collaboration in the process of scrutinising this Bill; also thank you to the Deputy Minister for her willingness to engage on this important legislation, and for what she said this afternoon. It’s also encouraging to hear some of the things that she’s committed to doing, and to discuss.

I’d like to start with the membership of the social partnership council. It is a key consideration. We must ensure that this influential body will fully reflect all aspects of Welsh society. For this to happen there must be flexibility in the mechanism of the membership so that expertise and experience can be drawn from as wide a field as possible. If we are to deliver the more ambitious agenda and robust decision making that the Bill promises, this needs consideration. I note that recommendation 7 is accepted in principle, and 8 is accepted, and look forward to the work being carried out as promised.

We must also strive for provision within the Bill to ensure that supply chains are globally responsible. I know this is a concern not just for Plaid Cymru, but a coalition of bodies within Welsh civic life have come together to express their concerns that actions to advance a globally responsible Wales through ethical procurement are absent. This coalition, which includes Cytûn, Size of Wales and Amnesty International want this commitment to be more explicit, and therefore on the face of the Bill, and I hope that all consideration will be given to this and addressed. To match our warm words with warm deeds, this matters. 

Now, I'd like to turn to the local procurement element of this Bill. I know public procurement may seem like a very dry topic, but this has the potential, if we get it right, to supercharge the economy. We cannot let this opportunity pass. Local procurement, or the money we retain within our borders for goods and services bought by the public sector, has been a hot topic for my party over the last decade. It was back in 2013 that the then leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, called for the Labour Government to match the Scottish levels of public procurement to create an additional 48,000 jobs for Wales. To achieve this jobs boost, it would have required Wales going from a public procurement rate of 50 per cent to 75 per cent. Imagine if we were able to surpass that figure and match the German rate of public procurement, which at the time was 98.9 per cent.

If those bold steps had been taken back then, imagine the impact this would have had on job creation, local economies and prosperity—it would have been seismic. Since then, the Plaid Cymru-run Gwynedd Council have shown what is possible with a can-do attitude when it comes to shopping local. Their strategy of keeping the benefit local led to a significant boost in local spend for goods and services. Public procurement is finally at the forefront of this Government's agenda, thanks to Plaid Cymru and the co-operation agreement. This was included specifically in terms of the free school meal policy, but this Bill gives us the opportunity to widen the remit of public procurement and keep the Welsh pound circulating within our economy. Anyone with an interest in supporting local jobs, local producers, local farmers and local communities should get behind this Bill, and ensure that it is as broad, robust and beneficial as possible. 

My three questions to the Minister are therefore: how will the social partnership council ensure that the voices of small organisations are heard, and what mechanisms are being considered? How will the Bill ensure that the Government delivers a globally responsible approach, and will terms and a target be included on the face of the Bill? And I have heard what the Minister has said about recommendations 15 to 19. Can a procurement target of 75 per cent, which has long been a Plaid Cymru policy, be set to concentrate the mind and ensure this Bill is ambitious when it comes to public procurement? Diolch yn fawr. 

Minister, I want to thank you for bringing this statement to the Chamber today. Before being elected, I was a volunteer at Sustainable Wales, based in Porthcawl, who are a grass-roots charity that encourage people to work as community leads on sustainable development. Working in social partnership is at the core of their work within such communities, and it's also about advocating for ethical behaviour in procurement. So, this legislation is an opportunity to enhance its framework throughout public services across Wales. I know that non-governmental organisation such as WWF Cymru, Amnesty International, Oxfam, Fair Trade Wales and others have engaged in equality and social justice on the Bill, and I know they have also worked collaboratively to put together a number of recommendations, including on ethical and sustainable procurement. So, Minister, I was wondering, what engagement has the Welsh Government had with NGOs working on this Bill, and what can Welsh Government learn from NGOs who have already incorporated social partnership into their working models? Diolch. 

The Deputy Minister to reply to the debate—Hannah Blythyn. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I felt under pressure in the time remaining for me to respond anyway, given what Jenny Rathbone said that it was whistle-stop tour when I tried to cover off as many of the responses to amendments as possible. I was very keen, probably much to the malign of my officials, to do a lot of work to provide as much of the rationale behind the Government's position at this stage as I possibly could. But, can I just say that, in addition, because I recognise the limitations on time this afternoon, I would be happy to follow up in writing to each of the committee Chairs to set those points out in more detail to you as well. I want to join with what Jenny said in terms of thanking the individuals and organisations that gave evidence. There was huge engagement around this legislation, which is to be welcomed, and it's a very positive, I think, reflection on the broader support that there is for the Bill as we've set out.

I'm just going to very briefly turn to one of the points that Jenny, the committee Chair, made, and that's with regard to the point to accept in principle recommendation 7. That is something that we will work with—. The reason to accept in principle was because we need to work with partners to reach a position where that can work in practice as well. I have had separate conversations with organisations such as the Royal College of Nursing too on that.

Turning to Huw Irranca-Davies's contribution as Chair of LJC, thank you very much, actually, for the opportunity to provide written evidence when we unfortunately weren't able to adhere to the original date of oral evidence. I think you picked up on a number of points that I raised already in the outset of my contribution, but just on recommendation 7 or 8, there's that commitment there to write to the committee and to engage further on that during the process of the legislation moving forward. I liked the liberty you took with regard to taking your committee Chair hat off—[Interruption.] Yes, well, take every opportunity; it would be remiss of you not to. On the point you made around the CLES report and the potential in terms of worker ownership, I'm more than happy to meet and to discuss that. It might be that this legislation is not the most appropriate vehicle for it, but it's definitely an initiative worth considering. I was actually at an event—I strayed over the border at the weekend to Preston, to a Communication Workers Union conference. We were talking about community wealth building, and Richard Leonard MSP was there talking about—and your name may have been mentioned in dispatches, Huw—the potential there in terms of worker co-operatives and employee ownership. So I'm more than happy to commit to that meeting to discuss how we can take forward work around that.

Turning now to Peter Fox, thank you very much for stepping in and your contribution on behalf of the Finance Committee. I think I covered many of the points in my opening comments, but, like I said, I'd like to commit again to following that up in writing to the Finance Committee. And just a couple of other things you were talking about: I think staff time and additional training and getting that information, the data baseline alongside the work—. Obviously, there are challenges in terms of having that information in advance of things being bedded in around some of the duties. But, alongside that—and I think I did mention it to one of the committees, but I actually forget now which one it was, because I've been on the merry-go-round of committee evidence as part of this process—we are doing some work to actually look at training with staff, but also the impact, perhaps, around things such as facility time. We're conducting a survey, as we speak, with the various organisations, to get a better gauge on that, as I did commit to one of the committees that we would need to do to have that baseline, to be able to take more informed decisions.

If I perhaps turn now to Joel James's contribution. I'd be intrigued to see who these outside bodies he says he's consulted with are. If the Member would like to write to me on that, the offer is still open to have a briefing around the legislation, to discuss his concerns around it. I have to say, Llywydd, it's disappointing but not surprising. All of us in here have heard the comments previously that the Welsh Conservatives don't support legislation to improve public services and the economic, social, cultural and environmental well-being of Wales, and also the power of the public purse to make a difference to people and places.

Turning briefly now to Peredur's contribution—

Yes, briefly, if you will, Minister. You are out of time.

I'm getting there, don't worry.

Thank you very much for that, Peredur. That commitment there is to work on those shared ambitions we have, to actually make that impact on—. Like you said, I never thought I'd get so excited talking about public procurement, but it is one of the levers that has that huge potential to make a real difference in communities across Wales.

Very quickly, because I don't want to leave Sarah Murphy out, can I thank Sarah for her contribution? I know it refers to an element of the legislation, and I think it's about actually how it applies for organisations out of Wales, whereas, actually, it doesn't exclude organisations from including their socially responsible procurement—things like tackling modern slavery, but also around environmental outcomes. I've seen the report that I think Members were talking about, and not just the recommendation, but the letter that came in from a number of organisations, and I commit to meet with them to discuss that further, as we move to the next stages of the legislation.

Can I just close by saying, 'thank you very much' to Members for their contributions today? I look forward to continuing to work in partnership, as we move forward with this important piece of legislation. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 9. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection, and as there is objection to that, we will defer voting, and the vote on the financial resolution, until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, and I very much hope that there aren't, we will move immediately to voting time.