Item 6 today is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal—a British Sign Language Bill. A recording of this debate, which will include BSL interpretation, will be available by the end of the day on Senedd.tv. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM8093 Mark Isherwood

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes a proposal for a Bill that would make provision to encourage the use of British Sign Language (BSL) in Wales, and improve access to education and services in BSL.

2. Notes that the purpose of the Bill would be to:

a) remove the barriers that exist for deaf people and their families in education, health, public services, support services and in the workplace;

b) strengthen the seven well-being goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 as they relate to BSL;

c) work towards ensuring that deaf people who use BSL are not treated less favourably than those who speak Welsh or English;

d) ensure that deaf communities have a voice in the design and delivery of services to ensure they meet their needs;

e) establish a BSL Commissioner who will:

(i) formulate BSL standards;

(ii) establish a BSL advisory panel;

(iii) produce reports every five years in BSL, Welsh and English on the position of BSL in that period;

(iv) provide guidance and a process for public bodies to promote and facilitate BSL in their respective domains;

f) establish a procedure for the investigation of complaints;

g) require public bodies to report on their progress in promoting and facilitating BSL through their Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 reporting cycle;

h) place a duty on the Welsh Government to prepare and publish an annual BSL report describing what Welsh Government departments have done to promote the use of BSL.

Motion moved.

Diolch. In February 2021, the Senedd voted in favour of my proposal for a Bill that would make provision to encourage the use of British Sign Language, BSL, in Wales, and improve access to education and services in BSL. As I said then, in October 2018 calls were made at the north Wales Lend Me Your Ears conference for British Sign Language legislation in Wales, looking at the British Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015 and their national BSL plan, published in October 2017, establishing a national advisory group, including up to 10 deaf people who use BSL as their preferred or first language.

Although the Wales Act 2017 reserves equal opportunities to the UK Government, Senedd lawyers state that a BSL Wales Bill would be compliant if it related to the exceptions listed in it. I also quoted the British Deaf Association, BDA, which had told me that my planned BSL Bill is an enormous step forward and, if it's anything like the BSL Bill in Scotland, will receive unanimous and total support of all the parties. It's a win-win', they said. With Members of all parties voting in favour of the motion that day, demonstrating a clear appetite for such BSL legislation across the Senedd Chamber, and with D/deaf people and communities across Wales continuing to ask me to bring forward a BSL Bill in Wales, I'm keen to continue to pursue this and seek your support.

I was delighted when Labour MP Rosie Cooper introduced her BSL Bill in the UK Parliament, co-sponsored by Conservative Lord Holmes of Richmond. This secured the UK Government's support, it was passed in March, and gained Royal Assent in April. The UK Act recognises BSL as a language of England, Wales and Scotland, requires the Secretary of State to report on the promotion and facilitation of the use of BSL by ministerial Government departments, and requires guidance to be issued in relation to BSL. However, although the UK Act creates a duty for the UK Government to prepare and publish BSL reports describing what Government departments have done to promote the use of BSL in their communications with the public, it specifically excludes reporting on matters devolved to Wales and Scotland. The Bill does not extend the reporting or guidance duty to the Governments of Wales and Scotland. Therefore, my motion today regarding the need for a Wales-specific BSL Act also incorporates this. As the BDA states,

'BSL is not just a language; it is also a gateway to learning...and the means whereby Deaf people survive and flourish in a hearing world.' 

Only yesterday, RNID Cymru told me that they support this proposal for a BSL Wales Bill, that now that both Westminster and Holyrood have passed BSL Bills, they hope that this Bill would complement those pieces of legislation and help to improve the provision of BSL across Wales, and that the policy objectives of the proposed Bill are positive, and are going beyond the Westminster BSL Act by including a commitment to produce reports every five years, which will provide valuable insight into the progress of implementing the Bill.

Although the Welsh Government has commissioned an audit of their BSL provision against the BDA's BSL charter, this has not yet been published, and the BDA has told me that a common theme emerging from the Welsh deaf community is a desire for more Welsh deaf leadership in BSL service delivery; for BSL services to be delivered by deaf BSL signers themselves; and for support to enable deaf-led professional planning and budget setting on BSL issues. They state that this seems to be because Welsh deaf BSL signers have seen Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities, with the best will in the world, spend money earmarked for BSL services on paying non-signers to design and deliver these BSL services, with the understandable and inevitable consequences of a mismatch between service design and actual need, reducing efficiency and value for money. They add that a BSL commissioner with the same powers as other minority language commissioners, such as in the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011, the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, and the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill 2022, currently awaiting Royal Assent, would show a significant message of support to the D/deaf community in Wales. 

In accordance with the social model of disability, this motion proposes a Bill seeking both to remove the barriers that exist for deaf people and their families in education, health, public services, support services and the workplace, and to extend to Welsh Ministers duties on devolved matters equivalent to those applying to UK Ministers in England. For reasons of morality, practicality and equality, I therefore urge all Members to vote in favour of this motion. Diolch.

I will be supporting this legislative proposal today, and I urge all other Members to also support it. BSL is the first language of people in the deaf community. BSL is more like Chinese than English, where there is the use of hands as descriptors, rather than spelling words. Sign language interpreters are meant to be available in both health and other Government settings, but I have heard of and seen many instances where that has not been the case. My sister is profoundly deaf, and she and others in the deaf community use BSL as their main means of communication. I am president of the hard of hearing group in Swansea, and as people's hearing deteriorates, BSL becomes the means of communication.

The Petitions Committee, a few years ago, received a petition to improve access to education and services in British Sign Language, to improve the quality of life for deaf people of all ages:

'Improve Access for families to learn BSL: When a child is diagnosed as being Deaf/hard of hearing parents should be offered free/subsidised BSL lessons....By using speech alone, Deaf children struggle/fail to develop communication skills missing important milestones. Learning other languages through BSL (English/Welsh) will improve the child's understanding and comprehension.'

For the deaf community, this is an important piece of legislation, and I urge all Members to support it. 

I'd just like to thank my colleague Mark Isherwood for tabling today's proposal. It would make for an excellent Bill, and a necessary one. I hope that it would force us to be a lot better in Wales at taking into account British Sign Language needs. One area where I believe this would bring about positive change is on British Sign Language in education, as my colleague has touched on already. The recent census data shows that British Sign Language was the main language for 22,000 people across England and Wales aged three and above, an increase of over 6,000 since 2011. With there being an increase in those using British Sign Language, it has never been more important that there is an increased awareness and we adapt to using British Sign Language in education, healthcare, business and daily life. This brings into focus the necessity and urgent need to ensure our education system is reflective of the growing sign language community. I look forward to hearing our education Minister's—and, of course, yours, Minister—thoughts on British Sign Language and its use in schools and exams. 

Qualifications Wales claim that there is a range of British Sign Language qualifications currently available on the credit and qualifications framework, with some at levels 1 and 2, which is effectively GCSEs. However, Deputy Presiding Officer, nowhere in Wales actually has the capability or facilities to deliver these essential qualifications. They would have to go to England to undertake the exam, from what I believe. And although Qualifications Wales have indicated there will be a new made-for-Wales BSL qualification aimed at school-age learners, it does not appear that these will be for GCSE-aged learners. The UK Government, however, has actually begun to develop subject content to see if it is possible to deliver BSL in regular school settings. Two of the UK-wide BSL boards, Signature and the Institute of British Sign Language, allow children to take qualifications through the medium of British Sign Language, although as I said, no Welsh schools are able to deliver this examination process. In the UK, there are 22 schools with provision for deaf children: 18 in England, three in Scotland, one in Northern Ireland and none in Wales—and this is not something that we should be proud of. I know that this Bill will go a long way to ensuring things will only improve for our Welsh deaf community. I'm pleased to throw my weight behind this legislative proposal, and I urge all Members across the Chamber to support this motion today.

Dirprwy Lywydd, can I just confirm how long I have to speak?

Three minutes.

Perfect. Thank you. Firstly, I'd like to pay tribute to the hard work and dedication of my colleague Mark Isherwood in fighting continuously and rigorously for the introduction of a BSL Bill in Wales. I dearly hope that his work and the work of many others involved won't be in vain and that a BSL Bill will eventually be introduced, because truthfully, making statutory provision for the use of British Sign Language will undoubtably improve access to education and to services and help deaf people and those with hearing issues fully integrate into every aspect of Welsh life, which at present is being denied to them.

In many ways, I'm surprised, given all the efforts this Government makes in setting health and well-being goals, that this Bill has not already been brought forward, because I'm sure it would have resounding cross-party support, and would have profoundly positive impacts on the deaf community and those who are hard of hearing.

I have stated before in this Chamber—and I'm not ashamed to repeat these points again—that BSL users face a lot of barriers in accessing services and trying to live their daily lives, especially in accessing healthcare provision. Sixty-eight per cent of BSL users repeatedly experience prohibitive barriers when contacting or booking healthcare appointments, because they have to travel to doctors' surgeries to ask for their appointments, then have to wait for an appointment that may be cancelled at short notice if an interpreter is not available.

We also know that even when deaf people do manage to get an appointment, 38 per cent have reported experiencing difficulties in getting the BSL communication support that they need, with a high number reporting that after their appointment, they were left not being fully aware of the details of their diagnosis or an understanding of their prescriptions, which, let's be honest, is quite a scary place to be for them, and a sad reflection of how those who are marginalised are often not treated with the same care and attention as others.

We further know that exclusion of deaf BSL users can also have a greater impact on their mental health and well-being, with 33 per cent of BSL users reportedly feeling lonely often or always, which is six times higher compared to non-disabled people. This is why it is so important that services and public spaces are made accessible for BSL users.

Across the UK, there's a shortage of qualified and registered BSL interpreters, which limits the ability of service providers to make themselves accessible to deaf BSL signers. According to the recent census for England and Wales, there are 26,000 people who use BSL—as my colleague Laura pointed out—as their main language, whilst there are only 1,400 registered interpreters. I think this should be reason enough to introduce legislation that will help encourage and promote BSL interpreters as a profession.

Finally, Deputy Llywydd, Mark's proposal is fundamental to improving the health and well-being of the deaf community here in Wales. It will help create a better world for them and for future generations to live in. I would urge everyone here to support it. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to thank Mark Isherwood for bringing this important debate to Senedd Cymru, and thank all Members who've contributed. We're all aware of how important this issue is, as we need to ensure that all deaf people in Wales have access to information and services. Last week, I made a statement to the Senedd to mark the international day of disabled people, and I highlighted a range of areas where we're taking action to advance disabled people's rights in Wales. This, of course, includes deaf disabled people.

It's therefore timely to focus on this issue, and I welcome the opportunity to do so. When considering deaf BSL users, it is essential that we understand how BSL and other preferred methods of communication could be treated more equally when compared with Welsh and English. I know that this issue has previously been highlighted in Senedd questions by Mike Hedges today and other Members on previous occasions. I thank you for your views today. Of course, we did discuss this in a short debate in January about hidden inequality, when this was also discussed. For many deaf people, BSL is their first or preferred language, and since 2004, Welsh Government has recognised BSL as a language of Wales.

Members will be aware of the 'Locked out: liberating disabled people's lives and rights in Wales beyond COVID-19' report, which was produced during the pandemic by and with disabled people. The Welsh Government responded by setting up the disability rights taskforce. As part of this, we've established an access to services, which includes the communications and technology working group, and it will ensure that the lived experience of disabled people drives forward the advancement of disabled people's rights, including access to BSL through the development of a disability rights action plan.

We are working with the British Deaf Association, which conducted a BSL audit for Welsh Government, and they're due to publish their final report in January—so, within a few weeks. Many of the recommendations in this report will help us to build resilience within the BSL translation and interpreting services, and also help us to build awareness of BSL in Wales. This will enable us to begin to set the standard for equality and access to services and information in BSL within Wales, including meaningful consultation and engagement with the deaf community.

As well as building capacity for learning and teaching BSL at all levels of the education system in Wales, I'm keenly aware that, to enable full access to information services and to remove barriers to participation, there needs to be a drive to build the capacity of deaf BSL translators and BSL-English and BSL-Welsh interpreters. We've all experienced the challenge—I have—of booking the few BSL interpreters who are available in Wales, and it's vital that we use BSL interpreters who understand the context of Wales and the nuances of using BSL alongside the Welsh language. Without these services, many people would not be able to take part and have their voices equally heard. I think the presence of BSL interpreters in Welsh Government press conferences from the start of the pandemic and currently, obviously, now part of the way we do our communications is essential. And I do welcome the BSL interpreter today in the Senedd.

You will be aware of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 that has children's rights at its core and will help ensure that all learners, including deaf children, are effectively supported to overcome barriers to learning and can achieve their full potential. The ALN Act creates a unified legislative framework to support learners from age nought to 25 with ALN and promotes equality by providing the right to a statutory individual development plan for all learners with ALN, regardless of the level of need.

A more equal Wales is one that enables people to fulfil their potential, no matter what their background or circumstances. It's also one of our collective national well-being goals in the well-being of future generations Act—[Interruption.]

I'm grateful, Minister, and I'm really pleased to hear the positive action that Welsh Government have taken in this particular field, but legislation, and enshrining something in legislation, gives people real rights, it does. That's why the Member has brought this proposal to the floor this afternoon. Would the Government be minded to support or work with the Member to bring forward a legislative proposal that ultimately will enshrine those rights and actually make that leap jump in improvements that we all want to see for people with hearing disabilities?

I think there are two things. I'm coming on to that in terms of legislation, but I do think it's also very important that we do hear from the British Deaf Association on their audit and, also, on the outcomes of the really important work that's been undertaken by the disability taskforce, but I will come on to legislative issues as well.

Just in terms of the references to the well-being of future generations Act, it is important, because it's one of our collective national well-being goals to make sure that we can reach for a more equal Wales, and it does mean that public bodies and public services boards are captured under the Act, and they're obliged to maximise their contribution to the achievement of a more equal Wales. This is underpinned by our long-standing commitment to the social model of disability, as Mark referenced, for deaf BSL users; the ability to get on with their lives unimpeded by communication barriers is fundamental.

Just finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, the British Sign Language Act 2022 contains provision to recognise BSL as a language in England, Wales and Scotland. This Act originated as a private Member's Bill, that's been already outlined today, that was introduced by Rosie Cooper MP last year. In April this year, I led a debate to approve a legislative consent memorandum in relation to the then BSL Bill. The Act does not prevent the Senedd from legislating in this area, should it choose to do so. There are carve-outs in the Act for devolved public authorities and for Welsh Ministers, and it's right that we can decide on a comprehensive Welsh method to suit our own approach.

The provisions in this Act will make a positive contribution to the lives of deaf BSL users, which we do welcome, alongside our Welsh approach. We now need to engage more with our deaf BSL citizens, and also deaf communities who do not use BSL, and there's so much value to understanding the lived experiences of all deaf people. We're committed to using this evidence and understanding to develop this co-ordinated approach to promote BSL and assistive and adaptive technologies as well. We can't change history, but we can influence and change what the future holds, and Welsh Government is committed to building a future of equality for all deaf and hard of hearing people in Wales, and this debate here is a really important contribution to that. Diolch.

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Diolch. Well, firstly, thank you very much to Mike Hedges for your support for this proposal. As he said, deaf communities use BSL as their main means of communication and, for deaf communities, this is an important piece of legislation. Thank you to Laura Anne Jones for her comments. As she said, this would bring a positive change in BSL in education. She highlighted the increase in numbers of people using BSL, the need to adapt to using BSL in public services and daily life, and the need to allow students to take qualifications through the medium of BSL. Joel James—again, thank you for your contribution—hopes, as do I, that the BSL Bill will eventually be introduced in Wales to help deaf people, to empower deaf people and to remove barriers that they identify. As he said, the Act would have profound positive impacts on marginalised deaf people, including access to healthcare provision, and he explained that currently, the lack of support is impacting on mental health and well-being amongst deaf people, which is six times higher than in the general population.

Thank you to the Minister for her comments. As she said, it's important that all deaf people should have access to information and services. The Minister referred to the 'Locked out' report and disability rights taskforce. She may recall that, during the first months of lockdown, I was approached by the Royal National Institute for Deaf People, the Royal National Institute of Blind People, Guide Dogs Cymru and I had meetings online with groups of adults with learning disabilities, and they identified the barriers that they had encountered since lockdown, which hadn't been designed in from the beginning of the changes introduced post lockdown, because there weren't duties on Ministers or other public bodies in Wales to do this proactively, to co-produce these things automatically. And the Minister did attend, when I raised this, the cross-party group on disability, and did attend the Equality and Social Justice Committee when I also raised this, and did respond, but I hope that the Minister would agree that it shouldn't have happened in the first place. We shouldn't have had to get to that point. And that's what this Bill seeks to do, at least for d/Deaf people and BSL users. 

We welcome the audit that the BDA have been doing for the Welsh Government on these matters. Of course, the BDA have been keeping me informed, and the cross-party group on deaf issues informed of this throughout. Despite that, they're supporting my proposal for a Bill and, in fact, today's motion was crafted with them, ensuring that the views of the people they represent are articulated within it.

The Minister referred to the need for—I'll finish with this—BSL interpreters. I remember, during my first term, your second term, you had a programme of BSL interpreters, and a lot more people were brought in and trained up to a high level, but it's not working now. There are huge shortages, exemplified by the fact that, last week, I asked the Senedd to provide a simultaneous translation for this debate. And I know from the communications that I've had that there are a lot of very upset deaf people outside this Senedd who wanted to follow this debate live, who feel that we have breached our duties under the social model of disability and the Equality Act 2010 to them, and they will have to tune in separately later to see if they can look at a subsequent translation. I regret that that's happened. But notwithstanding that, I welcome the support that we've heard from the few speakers today. I wish we'd had longer to debate this. And, please, please, Members, I urge you to allow this, at least in principle, to go forward, adding to the positive vote that we had in February last year. Diolch yn fawr.

Before I move to the question, can I just clarify that the Senedd did look at getting a translator in? Unfortunately, we were unable to do so, and that's why we've gone for the alternative on this occasion, which is a recording and there will be an interpreter on the recording.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection, therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.