The next step item is a statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government on diversity in democracy—the survey results. I call on the Minister, Rebecca Evans.

Diolch. As elected representatives, we're in a privileged position. We're trusted to do our very best for the people that we serve. And whilst I'm talking about local government today, the issues apply to all parts of our democracy.

The decisions that our councillors make have real-life impacts on our communities across Wales. Our communities are made up of people who are different—different backgrounds, different cultures and different aspirations. And different generations are shaped by changes in the environment, by technological advances, and by their daily experiences. And that's why diversity in democracy is so important. Individuals must be confident that the decisions that are taken and that impact on their daily lives and their futures are shaped by taking into account all views and perspectives within their communities.

The latest census results show that between 2011 and 2021, the proportion of black, Asian and minority ethnic people in Wales increased from 4.4 per cent to 6.3 per cent. However, the 2017 local government candidates survey showed that only 1.8 per cent of elected principal councillors, and 1.2 per cent of elected town and community councillors, were from a minority ethnic group, and I'll be interested to see the results from the 2022 local government survey, which will be available shortly.

We've already taken action to support diversity in democracy in Wales. We have reduced the age for voting in Senedd and local government elections to 16. We have introduced more flexibility for council meetings to be held through a variety of different methods, including fully remote and hybrid. We were the first country in the UK to introduce family absence for principal councillors. And we recognise the additional costs that disabled candidates may incur and we've introduced a pilot access to elected office fund, and six of the individuals supported through the fund are now community councillors. We have introduced job-share arrangements for executive roles, and four councils currently have these arrangements in place.

However, we believe that there is more to do, and that's why we have commissioned a number of pieces of research, including an evidence review of how councillor remuneration in Wales compares with other countries; a survey of public attitudes; and an online survey of councillors in Wales. More than 1,600 responses were received from principal and town and community councillors to the online survey, and a wealth of information has been collected on topics such as the perceived influence of councillors, workload, remuneration, and behaviours and attitudes towards councillors. The findings of this survey, and the other pieces of research, were published last year. In addition, two workshops were held to further explore the research findings with stakeholders, and a further online workshop is planned for 17 January.

I've made arrangements for officials working in this policy area to be available to Members of the Senedd at a drop-in session, and Members will be notified of the date for the session as soon as it's finalised. This will enable MSs to discuss the research and to share any views and experiences that they feel will be helpful in shaping our future approach.

One of the key issues that has emerged from the research work is the expectation that the public has about councillors' workload and availability. This leads to questions about whether these expectations are fair and how councillors respond to this. Results from the public survey indicated that almost two thirds of respondents felt that councillors

'should be available to the community at any time'.

In terms of councillors, 63 per cent indicated that they were available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. This demonstrates the high level of commitment to public service amongst our local elected members, but it also raises a concern, as these time pressures present difficulties to many people who may have caring, family, employment or business commitments, and therefore it might present a potential barrier to increasing diversity.

The research also explored the existing support for councillors and what further support might be helpful, as well as whether there should be core mandatory training for councillors, whether the remuneration model for councillors remains valid, and how we can be clear about the role councillors play in society. While there was not a clear outcome on the issue of mandatory training, a number of town and community councillors felt that there is a need for more training, particularly on issues relating to equality and diversity.

There was a broad range of views about the current remuneration arrangements, which we will want to explore further. Respondents to the Wales omnibus survey in March 2021 appeared to have a good understanding of the role of local government councillors in Wales and they offered a range of views on their day-to-day work. Looking forward, we have a programme for government commitment to reform local government elections to reduce the democratic deficit and to extend the access to elected office fund.

The diversity of our local elected representatives is critical to our democratic health as a nation. Supporting and encouraging candidates from diverse backgrounds is an integral part of encouraging people to engage with our democracy. We will therefore be using the evidence from this research, and the other work that we have commissioned from the Wales Centre for Public Policy, to develop the next steps in delivering these commitments.

I will shortly be publishing the results from the May 2022 candidate survey. But, even without the results, we know that there was an increase in the number of vacant and uncontested seats in our town and community councils. Just over 60 per cent of town and community council seats were uncontested, and just over 20 per cent were vacant. Twenty-nine councils were initially inquorate.

There are two key issues for us to work on. Firstly, ensuring communities feel connected with and want to engage with their community council. Secondly, making sure that people feel engaged enough to want to put themselves forward for election to community councils. To address these issues, I am establishing a ministerial working group, a democratic health task and finish group. I am really keen that this is a pacey, pragmatic review of the barriers and opportunities that will introduce fresh thinking into how we increase participation.

Finally, while there is some evidence from the national survey that suggests that more people are feeling involved in local decision making and feel that they have a relationship with councillors, there is also more negativity towards councillors. The councillors survey highlighted particular concerns about the increasing levels of polarisation in public debate. Many felt this negativity had intensified in recent years, driven by the debates around and the impact of Brexit, the handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, and general declining levels of trust in politicians. Findings showed that around half of respondents had experienced or witnessed inappropriate behaviour from members of the public towards councillors. Clearly, this is unacceptable.

I have also been disappointed that some of the abuse experienced by councillors has been at the hands of other councillors. Two out of every five respondents had witnessed or experienced inappropriate behaviour by other councillors. There is a risk that abuse becomes normalised and seen as part of the job, but it absolutely is not. We must work together to set zero tolerance and identify steps that we can take to address abuse and harassment in the future. I support the WLGA's work in this area, and ask Members to also call out abuse at every opportunity.

I thank Members for their ongoing interest in this agenda, and encourage colleagues to attend the drop-in session. Members will be notified of the date as soon as it is finalised.

Thank you, Minister, for bringing forward today's statement, 'Diversity in Democracy—Survey Results'. Thank you also, Minister, for the advance sight of the statement for Members today as well. As you outlined in your statement, Minister, the decisions councillors make have that real-life impact on our communities across Wales as a whole, and on this side of the benches we certainly welcome today's statement, welcome support being provided to our fantastic councillors and applaud their efforts to best represent their communities.

There are just three points I'd like to pick up and expand on from your statement. The first is in relation to flexibility. You outlined the work that's being done to ensure more flexibility for council meetings, which is, of course, welcome, to encourage that broad representation and improve accessibility. However, it's crucially important that our local councillors don't lose the focus of the in-person nature of representation as well. Often, some of the best work is undertaken in person. Regretfully, a number of councillors in Wales still aren't meeting flexibly—they're insisting to only meet online and seemingly taking advantage of this way of meeting, which, in my view, does put limits on democratic involvement. So, in relation to this, I'd be interested in your consideration of updated guidance on how hybrid meetings could or should be conducted in councils to ensure, yes, that flexibility, which is very important for diversity, but also—and some are doing this now—to stop councils from editing the proceedings of meetings, and to ensure virtual behaviour is in line with in-person expectation. It was only last month that we saw an example of a councillor allegedly voting whilst driving. I think that guidance would be very helpful, sooner rather than later.

In terms of improving democracy and diversity in democracy, one of the biggest areas of opportunity, I believe, is in working with employers to enable their staff to carry out their role as councillors—that flexibility for workers with employers. For my 14 years as a councillor, 10 of those years I held a full-time job, but I was lucky to work for a company that saw the benefits of my role as a councillor and allowed me the flexibility to carry out both of those roles. But, regretfully, many organisations still don't understand these benefits, which makes it difficult for councillors and those wanting to become councillors to carry out their role along with their day jobs. So, a question there, Minister, is: in light of this, will you work with employers to encourage them to have provision for their staff to carry out the role of the councillor, which will, of course, increase diversity?

The second point to expand on, Minister—it's an issue I've raised a number of times with you in the past, and you have certainly commented on it here today—is the abhorrent bad behaviour and abuse that many councillors and candidates receive. As you pointed out, 40 per cent of respondents to that public survey said they've either witnessed or experienced inappropriate behaviour by other councillors. And as you outline in your statement, there is a risk that abuse becomes normalised and is seen as part of the job, which we must not allow to happen as it really puts people off standing for election and certainly has an impact on diversity in our councils. So, the question there, Minister, is: what further work do you think can be undertaken to ensure we see a reduction in this abhorrent behaviour?

And the final point to expand on, Minister, is in relation to the point you raised around the level of commitment that many of our councillors put in. Because, as you said, on the public survey, 63 per cent of councillors indicated that they were available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, which is a great commitment and a reflection of the work put in by councillors, but I would perhaps argue is a difficult expectation to sustain. And this expectation makes it very difficult for councillors and prospective councillors to juggle family life, a career, and then also representing their community. I would argue that this is linked then to the number of uncontested seats, because, for a lot of people it's just not a reality that they can commit to. That's why I also think we see that demographic where nearly half of our councillors are over the age of 60 years old. So, I wonder, Minister, in light of this, whilst being proud of the work that our councillors put in, getting the balance right about the expectation of access to our elected officials, what work could be done, do you think, to ensure our younger people who want to become councillors or who are councillors would have a fair expectation of the time and energy they're able to put into this role? Thank you.

I'm very grateful to Sam Rowlands for those questions and comments. I absolutely associate myself with his initial opening remarks, which were around recognising and applauding the efforts of people who do serve every day in our communities as community councillors, town councillors, and as county councillors as well. We're very grateful for all of their work.

I think that we did make good progress through the local government and elections Act in terms of flexibility. That did remove some of those barriers by introducing the ability to have those hybrid meetings, which we know have been really important for people who do have caring responsibilities, family responsibilities, employment commitments that mean that the times at which they're available are more limited. Small business owners as well find it a very useful tool.

I do agree that we should expect the same behaviour of people within the virtual environment as we do within real life, and that's certainly something that we've adopted here in the Senedd. I think that we have a good model in terms of how we approach and treat people equally, whether or not they're here in person. And just to recognise as well that those formal set meetings of committees, of full council, those meetings of our town and community councils, are absolutely critically important, but they are still only part of the job that councillors do. I know that many councillors pride themselves about the way in which they're out in their communities—every day, often—having those face-to-face contacts with people. So, I think that there are still ways to maintain that face-to-face contact, even when meeting in a hybrid environment. But if there's more advice and guidance that we're able to provide, then we will certainly look to do that.

I think the point about engaging with employers is really well made. I wrote to the leaders of all of our public sector organisations fairly recently, highlighting the importance of councillors and the roles that they play within our communities, and also asking them to consider ways in which they could support their employees to become councillors, and setting out the benefits, potentially, to the organisation of having councillors working there as well. But I think there's probably more that we can do. I have regular meetings through various different forums with the Welsh Retail Consortium, with the CBI and the FSB, and I think that there are opportunities there for me to be promoting to them the importance of supporting people to become councillors. So, I'll certainly take that as an action from our discussions in the Chamber this afternoon.

The points about abuse, I think, are really important. We did find in the councillor survey that this was something that many councillors were incredibly concerned about and had experienced either themselves or had seen, and they echoed the points that you've made, really, in terms of it potentially putting people off. I think that's why the work that we're doing through the good councillor's guide is so important, but then also the work that the WLGA leads as well, in terms of the Debate Not Hate work that it has done. That really was about trying to foster the correct kind of culture and environment within the local government setting as well. But I think that the work that we've done through the survey has helped us understanding bullying better, and disrespectful cultures better, so I think that the work that we'll continue to do with the WLGA, and of course with One Voice Wales, which is doing great work in this space, will be increasingly important in the future as well.

The public expectations of councillors are just huge—62 per cent of people thinking that their councillors will be available to them 24/7 is amazing. The fact that so many councillors—almost two thirds of them—are available 24/7 to their constituents speaks to the amount of commitment that people have to this role, but also, I think, is in danger of putting people off and being, perhaps, overly burdensome to some good councillors who might decide that it's not something that they want to take forward for the longer term. So, I think there's a lot for us in the survey to consider in that space as well.

The general point about ensuring that councillors have the right guidance, I think, is important. We're consulting on whether or not there should be mandatory training for councillors, given what councillors have told us about the fact that they would often, especially at town and community councils, value training and guidance, particularly in the areas of equality. I think that's important. Potentially, we could be linking up these various things about helping people understand the expectations of them and what's reasonable when they start these roles, but then also what constitutes a healthy democratic culture within organisations as well. So, I think the survey has really helped us sharpen our thinking, really, about the things that we need to be working on alongside and with our colleagues. 

Thank you to the Minister for her statement. I think what we need to do at the outset is to thank those individuals who have put themselves forward to be advocates for their communities, although perhaps they don't feel that that's what it is, particularly in the current climate of having to make cuts to services and so on. Certainly, nobody goes into local government to do that. But, it does of course contribute to that feeling of negativity that surrounds these roles, unfortunately, and the way that the broader community—the perception that the broader community has of what some of these councillors do. But, whether we agree or not with their politics, we have to recognise that they have been willing to step up and to take that responsibility and that they are doing it for the very best reasons, whether we agree or not with the final decisions. 

But, this expectation of being available 24/7, we can identify with that, but we are professionals. We're well paid to do this as a full-time role. But, as you say, people are expected to do this on top of work commitments and family commitments. We still have some councils that meet at times of the day that aren't appropriate for people to contribute as we would wish to see. So, there is a long way to go and there's a lot that needs to be dealt with. And if you consider the situation in terms of remuneration, yes, that needs to be done, as you said in your statement. I'm sure that we'd all accept that £100 or £200 in addition won't resolve the problem, and that brings us to the nub of the issue, I think. I do believe we need to look at more structural issues in terms of local government—county councils as well as town and community councils—rather than just looking at a few interventions to make improvements in diversity and representation. 

There is a lack of clarity in terms of the role of councils. Certainly, that suggests to me that the system isn't working properly. Failing to connect with the local town council, the fact that there are so many vacant seats, so many uncontested seats, that screams out to me that we need to tackle that level of local government in Wales. So, my question is: how much willingness is there within Government to look at more structural interventions in terms of local government in Wales, particularly at that level of town and community councils? Do we need to look at empowering them to attract more to contribute to them, to share the burden, perhaps, across the various levels of local government? And I can hear county councils, perhaps, complaining about that, but we need to have the debate about where many of these responsibilities lie.

There's no consistency in Wales in terms of community councils. We have 70 and 80 in some counties and none at all in others. Some have a precept of £1,000 or £2,000 a year, and then somewhere like Barry, I think, represents a population that is almost as large as Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council. So, I think we need to consider some sort of reset in terms of that level of local government. And, as part of that process, we can be a lot more proactive in introducing these interventions. We've accepted the principles in terms of the reform of the Senedd here—that we want to move to an electoral system that does ensure more equal representation in terms of men and women. Well, if that principle holds for the Senedd, then surely the same principles should hold for local government. Is the Government willing to consider some sort of steps similar to that? I would be pleased to hear your response to that. 

You talk of a task and finish group on democratic health, and of course, we will support the work of such a group, but can you expand on the remit of that task and finish group? To what extent will they be looking at these broader issues, or will they simply focus on encouraging some interventions in isolation? I don't think that that necessarily is going to turn the situation around in the way that we would want to see. We, of course, do need to challenge any attitudes that normalise bullying or the harassment of councillors—misogyny, racism, homophobia; they are all elements that we must take action to eradicate. It was very disappointing to see some of the evidence saying that some people felt that it was difficult to raise these issues, that it was difficult to ensure that inquiries were made. And for me, that rings some alarm bells in terms of the need to tackle that. But, we will support the Government, but I would like to see a broader commitment and a more structured commitment to tackle some of these problems, rather than trying to deal with a few issues at a time. Thank you.

I’m very grateful for those comments and again, starting off with our appreciation for people who do put themselves forward to these roles, I think one of the interesting things from the councillor survey was that a large proportion of those respondents said that they’d decided to put themselves forward as councillors in the first place to improve their community and to make it a better place to live. I think we have to absolutely recognise that that is people’s starting point, and then when we think about the abuse that we’ve talked about in the Chamber that people receive for having put themselves forward from such a good place, I think that’s really concerning.

Another reason that came up strongly as well through the survey as to why people put themselves forward was so that they could help people and give local people a voice, and again, I think that those things are absolutely so commendable. The majority of respondents to the survey also said—so this is 91 per cent—that the most important role of a councillor was to represent the views and the needs of local residents, and also, then, followed by supporting the local community and working with residents to address local issues. So, I think that we can take a lot of heart from the kind of quality and calibre of people who are putting themselves forward for these roles.

I think that one thing that was also interesting from the survey was that around half, actually, once they were in the role, felt that they had less influence and opportunity to change things than they’d initially imagined that they would when they entered their role, and it was only around a third who thought that they did have the level of influence that they expected. So, I think that that was something interesting for us to reflect on as well.

I am really heartened that 80 per cent of councillors say that they would recommend to others that they also put themselves forward as councillors. Only 6 per cent said they wouldn’t recommend it as a role, which I think is really positive. But, the points that were made about remuneration were really important. We looked very closely at this, and we know that, actually, particularly in the town and community council sector, there’s a real reluctance to claim any of the money that is available and is rightly there to be claimed to support people to undertake their roles. The majority of principal councillors were aware that they could claim for a basic salary to carry out their duties, and they had claimed their salary in full. Only around one in five of them said that they’d claimed full reimbursement for travel and subsistence costs. Again, there is potentially a worry about what the public might perceive if you’re claiming travel and subsistence costs, but these are costs that are available to people in jobs in all kinds of walks of life, but I think that, again, perhaps councillors feel that they’re held to different and higher standards than others. So, again, that’s something I think that we need to be looking at in terms of how we support councillors to claim what they’re absolutely entitled to to support them to do their particular roles.

Once we’ve finalised the details, I think perhaps I’ll publish a written statement to give colleagues the terms of reference for the work that we’re doing on democratic health, and also more information about the membership of the group that will be supporting that work, because I think that will be really helpful for colleagues. And then, it is part of a wider piece of work that we are doing to support town and community councils in particular. I know that my friend has lots of interest in this particular field, and I always prepare myself for the very latest when I come to Minister's questions, just in case it appears that week. But I know that we’ve had lots of exchanges on it, and he will know that the work that we’ve been doing in terms of the finance and governance toolkit for town and community councils has been really important in terms of ensuring that the members of that council and the clerk have the kinds of tools that they need to be able to exercise their responsibilities effectively. That was co-developed with One Voice Wales and also the Society of Local Council Clerks, and also has the support of Audit Wales. So, that’s been a really important and recent intervention, as has the support that we've given for clerks to undertake the certificate in local council administration qualification. We provide the full cost for them to do that, and that's important, because that is one of the things that we require for town and community councils to exercise the general power of competence, which, again, I think could be a real game changer in terms of supporting some town and community councils to really deliver to the maximum for their communities.

Again, we've provided additional support for training for councillors in that sector and the support now of the chief digital officer, who is working with town and community councils to maximise their use of technology in this space as well. So, there is a lot of really good work going on at the moment in that sector, but I absolutely recognise the point that has been made to me a number of times that this sector is so diverse and we have some absolutely incredible town and community councils that are really engaged, but then others that need to learn and look to those that are doing exceptionally well.

We've used all of our time that's been allocated so far, but I intend to call all four Members who wish to speak. So, please be succinct, keep to your time, and I'm sure that the Minister will do exactly the same.

I will.

My first question, Minister: the move to a leader and cabinet model has led to more strategic decision making, however, it can also locate that decision making within a smaller group. So, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of this top tier of local government and how can we ensure that cabinets also reflect the diversity of communities? My second and final question is around votes at 16. I welcome your comments on that, and I think it's a really important step, but we know, for example, that only an estimated one in five 16 and 17-year-olds in Wales registered to vote in this year's council elections. So, I'd like to ask: what ongoing work is taking place across Government to encourage more 16 and 17-year-olds to register?

I'm really grateful for those questions. In terms of cabinets, I think that one of the really important things that we delivered through the local government and elections Act was the removal of the barriers for job sharing arrangements within the executives of principal councils. So, that has enabled people who wouldn't otherwise have been able to undertake those executive roles to be able to step up and do it on a job share basis; I think that's really exciting. Four councils are currently utilising that, so we're learning very much from their experiences and the experiences of the relevant councillors to help us consider are there other roles within local government that could benefit from the opportunity to job share as well, so I think that that will help and is helping in terms of increasing the diversity in that space. And also the work that we've done through the Act again, which puts a duty on political group leaders to promote high standards within their groups. I think that that, again, is an important innovation that we've undertaken to try and ensure that we do continue to improve diversity.

On the votes for 16, I think that we were disappointed that the levels of participation weren't higher at the first opportunity that they had, so we're doing work with a number of organisations that deal directly with young people. Many of us will have been involved with the democracy project and spent time talking to young people about our role. So, there's absolutely much more to do in this space, but I think that we have a good coalition of organisations that are expert in working with young people that are helping us in that space.

Thirty-six per cent of the councillors elected in the elections in 2022 were women—an increase of 8 per cent since 2017, but far from being where we should be in terms of equality, of course. Although two councils are equal in terms of gender balance, the picture in other areas is unacceptable, where the representation of women is as low as 18 per cent. So, what specific steps is the Government taking to improve representation of women in local government? You mentioned in the introduction to your statement that the issues under consideration are relevant to all parts of our democracy, not just local government, so can I ask for an update on the work that is being done by the Government to investigate the feasibility of options for job sharing in the Senedd as part of the work for the Senedd reform Bill? Thank you.

Thank you very much for those questions and the important point about women's representation in local government. We are absolutely far from where we should be in terms of the number of women who are taking on the role of councillors, but also council leaders. We have very, very few women council leaders in Wales, and that's something that we would want to see increased in future as well. 

I think that the work around remote attendance is really important to support women particularly, who usually have the caring responsibilities and the family responsibilities, to be able to attend meetings in a way that is more convenient to them—so, that's important—and also tackling bullying as well. We know that women are very often at the fore—in the front line—of receiving abuse online and in person and so on, so we need to, obviously, be redoubling our efforts in that space as well. I think, on a party political basis, there is a job for all of us to do in terms of nurturing talent within our parties, identifying women who might, just with a bit of encouragement and support, consider putting themselves forward for these roles as well. So, I think, individually, we can all take some responsibility for that as well. So, I think that there is good work going on, but we are far from where we would want to be in that space, absolutely. 

On job sharing in the Senedd, that's not something that I'm directly involved with. I think that would probably be a question potentially for the Llywydd at this point, or colleagues who are working within Welsh Government on that. It's not something I'm personally involved in, but I will try and get an answer on that.

Thank you, Minister, for the update today. I want to start by giving a shout out to our excellent Bridgend youth council, who also, like councillors, do an awful lot of work in their own time. They actually posted today their code of conduct that they've created, which includes being non-judgmental, respecting other's values, as well as no colourful language or vaping. Another wonderful young person that I'd like to highlight is Tyler from Cornelly, who, during the local government elections last year, took part in the pilot on voting from his school, Cynffig comp, in Pyle, as a 16-year-old first-time voter, and encouraged many, many more of his fellow students to do the same.

I wanted to raise just one quick point. Last year, I sponsored the Chwarae Teg leadership mentoring scheme, where many young women came and were mentored by many of us here today. And one of the mentees, Seren, who's from Porthcawl, has gone on to produce a petition calling for more representation here in the Senedd and wider. As she puts it, she wants people making decisions for the people of Wales to be reflective of the people of Wales, and I would ask that everyone takes a look at what she is campaigning for.

And then, finally, I just wanted to raise some concerns that I've had from Welsh Youth Parliament Members, who have done some tremendous work since they were first elected in December 2018. But I know, from speaking to some of them, that it can be frustrating when recommendations continue to stay the same because they have not been actioned. So, for example, the 'Young Minds Matter' mental health report summary, which came out at the end of last year, has almost identical recommendations to the 2020 report. This can be very deflating for our Youth Parliament Members, who are, hopefully, going to go on to want to become advocates for others, councillors and Members of the Senedd in the future. So, my question, really, Minister, is: how are we going to ensure that these results from this survey and the work that's being done is actually making meaningful, visible change that reassures our young people in particular that Welsh Government is active and listening? There are many young people who are trying to engage with these systems and the structures that are in place, but they need to really see that things are being done.

I'm really grateful for those points. I just want to recognise the amazing work that our youth councils do across Wales and just reflect on some discussions I had recently with One Voice Wales about the potential role for youth town and community councils; we have some already starting to pop up across Wales. What I was told is that, as well as engaging young people with the local issues, it really does provide you with a pipeline of talent and enthused, engaged people within the community who will be the future town and community councillors. So, I think that the more that we can do to promote and support that work, the better. The work that you've done with Chwarae Teg has been really important. I've been a mentor myself in the past and I got lots from that experience as well, and I hope that the person that I mentored did, but I found it really, really valuable. I know that we're all keen to continue to support those kinds of initiatives.

And in terms of gender quotas—so, this has been raised by Llyr Gruffydd, and I didn't respond to that at the point—we are exploring how they could be introduced into the electoral system for the Senedd, obviously, and we continue to work with the political parties to encourage and support candidates from more diverse backgrounds to stand in devolved Welsh elections. But town and community councils and county councils are different, in the sense that they are held on a first-past-the-post basis. So, it would make it more difficult, I think, for us to find a way in which we could introduce those quotas. There's certainly something that we need to explore to its fullest extent, but I think that that really gives us the need, really, to be thinking about what more we can do on a party political basis as well.

And I think that the last point, really, which was about how we engage with young people—we need to do it all year round in all of our different roles. So, for me it's really important that I engage with young people and hear their views through various different forums when we're setting the Welsh Government's budget. In the past, I've engaged with economics students and have had discussions with them. My officials have gone into schools and talked about budgets. I've gone into a school as well and talked to them about Welsh rates of income tax and things like that. So, all of that sort of thing, I think—just the year-round engagement—is really important as well.

And finally, Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Our local authorities do excellent work, but sometimes they do it with one hand tied behind their back. We've got the cabinet system in place, but it seems that there's very little support for Members to carry out scrutiny. In order to scrutinise well, they need some support of researchers, and, as far as I am aware, that is missing.

So, in terms of those people who are in charge—and we've understood quite well today that they are mostly men who are in the cabinet system in Wales—it means, therefore, that the few women that are left behind have to do the most scrutiny, with, as I say, very little support to do that. I would most certainly welcome some quotas, however we can do it, to get more women into local government. Of course, where I come from, the area that I represent, Mid and West Wales, that won’t be done through the party system because, in the majority of those local authorities, the seats are held by independents—whatever that means I've still yet to work out, but it is a fact, and it's something that we need to seriously address, in my opinion.

Yes, that's a really important and interesting point, actually, about the independents being a very, very large group of individuals in terms of local government. So, it is more difficult, then, to have that kind of strategic approach that we, hopefully, will be taking within our parties about identifying and nurturing a more diverse group of people for the future. I'll certainly give some more consideration to that point about support for scrutiny in the sense of having access to advice and the range of support that they will need—that councillors will need—in terms of undertaking scrutiny effectively.

We are considering what further guidance might be necessary, but also that important point about whether mandatory training should be in place for councillors as well. I think, potentially, one of the areas of training that we should be looking at would be effective scrutiny as well. Because, when people first become a councillor, this is all new. You don’t know what questions to ask, necessarily, and you don’t know what the right avenues to go down are to get the answers that you need.

So, I think that we do need to be considering what further support might be necessary for scrutiny arrangements, and the point was very well made about it often being women who are doing the scrutiny work, which I think is important as well, when we think about having environments where people feel comfortable and able to undertake the role. So, I think that this session this afternoon has given me some good food for thought for some further things that we can be doing in this space.   

I thank the Minister.