2. Will the Minister make a statement on the new Welsh Government pay offer put to NHS workers? TQ725

Thanks very much. A written statement has literally just been issued on this topic, but I’m happy to set out some aspects of the offer to NHS workers in order to stave off industrial action, if that is helpful.

Thank you, Minister, for your answer this afternoon. I do hope, of course, that a solution is found and agreed that can lead to further industrial action not taking place in Wales. I have asked my topical question this afternoon because I had further questions following your written statement on Friday. Of course, in the last 10 minutes, a further written statement has landed in the inbox of Senedd Members. I'm glad that the topical question has brought forward this written statement, which perhaps answers some of the questions that I had, but also perhaps provides some more questions that I have as well, given this opportunity now, Minister.

But can I first of all ask: do you believe that the source of funding for this proposal is sustainable? And the reason I ask that question is that the finance Minister told the BBC that it was being funded from reserves. But what about future years, and how will the year-on-year pay settlement be funded? I looked very quickly, Minister, through your written statement over the last 10 minutes. With regard to working hours, you talked about a working group that's being set up and reporting by the autumn. That sounds positive, but perhaps you can outline what the remit of that working group is. 'Flexible working'—that was another headline I was pleased to see, Minister. Perhaps you can say a little bit more about your retire and return strategy that you've outlined in your statement this afternoon. I was very pleased to see the headline of 'Reduction in use of agency'. I suppose the question there is: how? There wasn't a great deal of detail in the statement, so perhaps you can expand further on that. And I was particularly interested in your point in your statement this afternoon, Minister, on pay restoration, and you're talking about influencing the UK Government, the pay review body. But can I ask: what about the influencing that you might have on your own pay review body in that regard as well? Thank you, Minister.

Thanks very much. And as you know, we've been negotiating very diligently over a very long period of time, very intense negotiations, and I'm really pleased that we were able to come to a conclusion on Thursday night. That was put, certainly to the officials within those unions, and the vast majority of them, I'm delighted to say, called off their industrial action, which is not insignificant—and we're talking about the RCN, the RCM, Unison, CSP, GMB, BMA, BAOT, and SOR. They all agreed not to continue with industrial action whilst they put this package to their members. So I'm really pleased that we were able to do that. I think that there's a lesson here for other Governments across the United Kingdom that, actually, sitting down and discussing can lead to some positive conclusions.

Now, what I'm absolutely clear about is that this is not over. The decisions on this will ultimately be for the rank-and-file members of those trade unions, who will now need to determine whether they want to pick up that package that has been so carefully worked out. It's not been an easy process; it's been a very challenging process. And just in terms of some of the points that you made—. And you're quite right, it is literally this minute that this has come through. That's not actually because of the topical question but because, literally, we have just finished negotiating with the trade unions, so it was absolutely down to the wire, and I'm glad that it's coincided with your question, Russell.

But, just in terms of the sources of funding, I just think it's really important that people understand that we've said, the whole time during this process, that there is an amount of money for this financial year, and what we've done is we've raided our reserves to get the money to pay for this financial year. Next financial year—and the unions were very clear with us—there are some red lines, and their red line, in relation to health unions, was that they wanted to see at least an element of this being consolidated into future years. So, the truth is that we've gone at risk on this. And you asked about agency nurses, and I know this is something we're all keen to see, but now, through working with the trade unions, I think it will be much easier for us to try and deliver on making efficiencies in relation to agency workers next year. But the truth is that we're going at risk to the tune of about £60 million next year. So, if we're not able to find those savings, then I am going to have a very difficult decision as health Minister to find cuts from other areas. But, we have looked at this in quite a lot of detail, we think we can do it, it will be much easier to deliver this if we do it with the trade unions, and, obviously, with the health board managers.

The other thing you talked about is working hours. As you say, yes, we'll be establishing this working group, and that group will be reporting by the autumn. The retire and return—there's an element of this, obviously, which is in the hands, effectively, of the UK Government, because some of it is about pensions. So, again, I have already written to the UK Government, just to ask them to consider issues in relation to pensions for those who are ready to retire. 

And pay restoration, just as a principle, I think we all acknowledge that there has been an erosion over the years, and, of course, in an ideal world, we'd like to see a move towards pay restoration. 

May I first of all comment on the proposed salary increase of 1.5 per cent, because it's only that that's being considered as a pay rise, not the bonus, of course? I am convinced that it isn't enough to make up for many years of pay cuts in real terms, and it's quite right that the union members themselves will now decide whether to accept it or reject it. 

In terms of this issue of pay restoration, it's good to hear a commitment in principle; what I would like to hear from the Minister is a plan to tackle the fact that we have seen a decade and more of pay cuts. 

We've just seen the proposals in terms of the issues not related to salaries. It's very important indeed that we have more detail on what's been offered, because a failure to deal with so many of those elements is a large part of what's driven more and more people to work for agencies, of course. I just want to focus on agency working. I have a copy here of a contract between NHS Cymru and all of the agencies providing health staff in Wales. Nursing—148 agencies have signed this agreement. Some of them are specialist, but what we have here is proof of the scale of the privatisation that has happened of the workforce within the NHS—148 companies making profits on the back of nurses and the NHS in Wales. And the contract states clearly how much they're paid—between £30 and £48 an hour, plus VAT, for band D nursing staff. The nurses themselves are paid from £20 upwards, so that's 30 per cent and more of a cut going to the agency. So, when will we see real movement away from this kind of contract, which sucks money out of our health service in Wales? How much money, and within what timescale do you need to spend that money in order to fund the small pay increase that you've offered now?

We need to ensure that the national nursing bank is something that is made a reality for the benefit of nurses, patients and the NHS, and in order to deliver higher and fair salaries in years to come. 

Thanks very much. This hasn't been an easy offer to negotiate, and what we have managed to do is to get a situation where, on top of the £1,400, which was the recommendation by the independent pay review body, what we've done now is we've found an additional 3 per cent—1.5 per cent of which will be consolidated and 1.5 per cent that will be non-consolidated. And what that actually means in practice is that, if this package is not accepted—and I think it's really important that I'm absolutely clear that this is the only deal in town—if this offer is rejected, we will be unable to make any higher pay offer for 2022-23. That is the reality or the situation. So, it's this or nothing. It's really important that people understand that that is what we're talking about here. 

So, just in terms of the reality of what that means, those on the bottom of band 5, which includes nurses and other healthcare professionals just starting their careers in the NHS, they will have received a total pay increase of 8.62 per cent for this financial year. And our lowest paid staff will have received a pay increase of 14.15 per cent. So, I think it's really important that people hear those figures, because that is not an unreasonable place to settle. 

Now, in terms of the agency, look, I think we're all committed to cutting down on the amount of money that we spend on agency workers. We've been firefighting for a very long time; I don't think anybody can deny that. We are going to have an absolute focus on this now. That's why you will see some of the detail that we want to do set out in the workforce implementation strategy that I announced last week, and that all-Wales bank will, of course, be a part of that.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement and also the update on questions that you've taken this afternoon. I notice from the unions listed that Unite aren't listed there as party to the discussions, but I understand that on Sunday, you did have discussions with their national general secretary. Are you able to update us on what was involved with those discussions? Given that they're not party to this statement and the organisations contained in this statement, how do you see yourself being able to resolve the dispute with Unite, because obviously that is a continuing dispute across the health estate?

Thanks very much. I did carry out some very informal discussions with the general secretary of Unite who happened to be in Wales on the weekend. I think it's really important that I emphasise that these were informal discussions because Unite, by not calling off their industrial action, have excluded themselves now from the negotiating table. So, everything that's been negotiated this afternoon in relation to the non-pay aspects of what we're talking about, Unite were not in the room when that was being negotiated. I think that's really important. Obviously, we are very keen to get to a situation where we see no more industrial action in relation to health in Wales, but we will work with the coalition of the willing to make sure that we can move ahead where that is practical.

I thank the Minister.