We move now to item 12, LCM on the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. And I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NDM8207 Julie James

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the ​Social Housing (Regulation) Bill​ in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. This is a UK Bill intended to reform the regulation of social housing providers in England. English social housing providers own or manage around 500 homes in Wales; therefore, the changes proposed by this Bill will have an impact on people who live in these homes, because the Bill will change the way that their landlords are regulated. The legislative consent of the Senedd is required where UK legislation makes provision for any purpose within the competence of the Senedd. Housing is a devolved matter and so, although the Bill impacts on a relatively small number of people who live in Wales, the requirement for consent is triggered. 

The legislative consent memoranda laid identify and explain why I believe consent is required. My general view is that the changes proposed to the English regime aim to ensure that landlords are more accountable to their tenants for their performance and, therefore, I recommend that legislative consent is given. It's important to note that consent to these provisions merely preserves the current position for those tenants in terms of how their landlords are regulated and to note that the Welsh Government has not asked for any of these changes to apply to Welsh social landlords.

The regulatory regime in Wales is framed around different statutory provisions and operates very differently to that in England. Although the nature of social landlords is also different in England and Wales, to some extent, they all provide similar services for some of the most disadvantaged people and communities and face similar challenges. Recognising some of those challenges, I launched a set of new regulatory standards and a revised regulatory framework for Wales in January 2022. I set challenging standards on the way landlords engage with and listen to tenants, make performance information available, achieve high levels of tenant satisfaction with the services they provide and learn from complaints. The absolute requirement to keep tenants safe in their home is also set out clearly in the standards, further reinforced by the fitness for human habitation duty set out in the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, which came into force in December.

In recommending consent to be given to this UK Bill, I can assure Members that the issues it sets out to address have been, and are always, under consideration here in Wales. I would thank the committees that have considered the memoranda on this Bill. I note the concerns in relation to provision of timely information and due scrutiny. Often this is out of the direct control of the Welsh Government and, whilst I will always attempt to provide information as promptly as possible, I must inform the Senedd that I'm now aware that further amendments were published just yesterday, which are being considered by officials and which may also trigger the requirement for consent. 

I intend to write to the relevant UK Minister to express my dissatisfaction with the late tabling of amendments and its impact on this Senedd's ability to effectively scrutinise the complete Bill. I know the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee have reported on the latest memorandum yesterday. They agree on all points save one. I maintain the position set out in the last LCM that consent is needed for the amendment to Schedule 5, which is in relation to data protection, which is Government amendment 35. I would, though, like to thank both committees that have considered this Bill and I'm pleased that there is agreement on most points relating to the requirement for consent and a majority recommendation that consent should be given.

So, Llywydd, to conclude, I recommend that Members support the legislative consent motion in respect of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. Diolch.

The Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm speaking in my capacity as Chair of the committee—the Local Government and Housing Committee, as you said, Llywydd. We've laid two reports on the legislative consent memoranda for the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. We reported on the initial LCM, supplementary memorandum No. 2 and supplementary memorandum No. 3 in December last year. We reported on supplementary memorandum No. 4 on 13 January. Llywydd, as I explained in a letter to the Business Committee, regrettably, we did not have sufficient time to report on the most recent supplementary memorandum, No. 5, which was laid on 15 February—the day before the only meeting at which we were able to consider it.

We note that the Welsh Government states that provisions will apply to the approximately 530 social housing properties in Wales that are owned or managed by English-registered providers and that the vast majority of social housing properties in Wales will not be affected. We also note that the Welsh Government states that the Bill will bring positive changes for those Welsh tenants who will be impacted. But we believe that the short amount of time allocated to the legislative consent process is insufficient to enable us to fully understand the impact of provisions on the lives of people in Wales. And we're concerned that legislating in this way can disadvantage people in Wales as they have fewer opportunities to feed in their views to those making the legislation and we do not have the opportunity to test the provisions with Welsh stakeholders.

The committee is very frustrated that we were unable to scrutinise the provisions in memorandum No. 5 and report our views to the Senedd ahead of this debate. As it was laid the day before our meeting, we were only able to consider the provisions very briefly. Members feel strongly that having only one meeting to consider and report on an LCM is insufficient. Twice, Llywydd, I have written to the Business Committee on behalf of the committee to outline our concerns around the increased use of UK Bills and the legislative consent convention to legislate in devolved areas.

Despite these concerns, most members of the committee feel that they can recommend the Senedd gives its consent to legislate on the devolved matters in the initial memorandum and memoranda Nos. 2 to 4. One member of the committee, Mabon ap Gwynfor MS, disagrees with the majority view and believes that consent should not be granted. Given the time available for the scrutiny of supplementary memorandum No. 5, we are not in a position to come to a view on whether to recommend to the Senedd that it gives or withholds legislative consent in relation to the provisions included in the latest memorandum.

Llywydd, I would like to conclude by repeating previous pleas that the Welsh Government should ensure that committees have the necessary time and information to be able to play a meaningful role in the legislative consent process. Diolch yn fawr.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'll be as quick as possible. We have produced three reports covering the five consent memoranda that have been laid by the Minister for this Bill. The first was completed last November, and the third was laid only yesterday afternoon. 

Now, last month, Llywydd, I spoke in the debate on the legislative consent motion for the UK Infrastructure Bank Bill and I noted that our final report on that Bill was our fortieth report on legislative consent memoranda in this sixth Senedd—the fortieth report. Since then, we've reported on a further four legislative consent memoranda.

So, my comments this afternoon will focus on the large number of memoranda for the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the Minister has laid five legislative consent memoranda for this Bill, demonstrating the extent to which the Bill introduced to the UK Parliament has both changed since its introduction and the extent to which such changes impact on devolved areas. Our consideration of all the memoranda for this Bill serves to highlight the profound inadequacies of enabling a different Parliament to legislate for Wales on devolved matters.

In our latest report we have welcomed the Minister’s action to lay memorandum No. 5 before the Senedd within a few days of the relevant amendments being tabled in the UK Parliament. That is truly welcome. However, given that the debate was scheduled for today, Senedd colleagues on the Local Government and Housing Committee, as you've just heard, who have been trying to look at the important policy detail and implications of this Bill, haven't been able to scrutinise the latest amendments and the supplementary consent memorandum. It's only because the committee timetable enables our committee to meet on a Monday afternoon and we were able to consider the memorandum yesterday and report straight afterwards, ahead of this debate, that we're able to make these remarks right now. This is not the way, though, to scrutinise primary legislation that will have an impact in Wales.

John Griffiths, my fellow Chair, the Chair of the local government committee, has summarised this predicament well in his remarks today and in his recent letter to the Business Committee. The increased use of UK Bills and the legislative consent convention to legislate in devolved areas means there is insufficient opportunity for Members of the Senedd to scrutinise proposed new laws and to fully understand the impact of these provisions on the lives of people in Wales.

Now, at this point, I will highlight again the timing issues with the first memorandum and memorandum No. 2. It took the Welsh Government 10 weeks to lay the first memorandum, by which point the Senedd had actually entered the summer recess period, and there was a six-week delay between the tabling of relevant amendments to the Bill in the House of Lords and the laying of memorandum No. 2. So, in our report on those early memoranda we did take the opportunity to remind the Minister—and challenge the Minister and all Welsh Ministers—of the importance of providing timely information to Senedd Members so as not to add to the democratic deficiencies caused by UK Bills making provision for Wales in devolved areas and the associated consent process. But, in that spirit of being a constructive and critical friend, in our report on memoranda Nos. 3 and 4, we welcomed the fact that memorandum No. 4 was laid before the Senedd within 14 days of the relevant amendments being tabled before the UK Parliament. This is really welcome and the Government has clearly listened and we do welcome that.

So, before closing, Minister, we've also noted, as you did in your remarks, that further amendments were tabled to this Bill yesterday, so we may be back here again. These amendments may also impact on devolved areas and therefore engage the legislative consent process, so Minister, again, perhaps you could just continue to reflect on these concerns in the way forward on this and in your closing remarks, but we welcome the timeliness of the recent laying of this, even though it's given very limited time for committees to consider it.

Of course, the purpose of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill is to facilitate a new proactive approach to regulating social housing landlords on consumer issues. Such issues include safety, transparency and tenant engagement. This Bill has three main objectives: to facilitate a new proactive consumer regulation regime, refine the existing economic regulatory regime, and strengthen the regulator for social housing's powers to enforce the consumer and economic regimes.

Approximately 530 properties in Wales are owned and/or managed by an English provider that will be subject to the changes described by this Bill. The Minister for Climate Change has described it as appropriate for the provisions to be dealt with within the UK Parliament Bill, due to the small numbers of social housing stock in Wales owned or managed by an England-based provider. Describing the clauses as 'positive' for tenants in Wales, the Minister recommends the Senedd consents to the provisions, and I'm grateful to the Minister for that. The Minister for Climate Change also noted the positive impact of the Bill on Welsh tenants through the strengthening of tenants' rights as a justification for granting consent, and again I agree.

This is set to be achieved by making safety and transparency explicit parts of the regulator's objectives. The UK Government would remove the serious detriment test—a legislative barrier to regulator action on consumer issues. Also, the UK Government will require landlords to nominate a designated person for health and safety issues. Social housing landlords would also be subject to new requirements for electrical safety checks. This objective is to ensure that providers are well governed and financially viable to protect homes and invest in new supply, through refining the regulator's current economic regulatory role. This will protect tenants from the risks of provider insolvency, while supporting the development of new homes, and that is something that we on these benches have long been calling for. The Bill also provides for tough new enforcement powers to ensure the regulator can effectively intervene when required. The regulator would have the appropriate tools to deal with non-compliance by social landlords, encourage landlords to maintain standards, and avoid the threat of enforcement action.

Thirty-two provisions in the Bill have been identified by the Welsh Government as requiring Senedd consent, including clause 9, designating a health and safety lead; clause 18, allowing the regulator to issue a code of practice on consumer standards; and clause 24, enabling the regulator to take emergency remedial action against serious health and safety risks. There are an additional two clauses that the Welsh Government has identified as maybe requiring consent. Clause 33 enables the Secretary of State to make provision that is consequential on this Bill by regulations. The Welsh Government acknowledges that this is outside of the Senedd's competence. Based on the relation to other provisions in the Bill, the Welsh Government have claimed that the Senedd's consent is required; however, in and of itself, the specific clause does not fall within the devolved remit.

Supplementary legislative consent memorandum No. 3 was laid before the Senedd on 17 November 2022. Such amendments included a new power for the regulator to set a standard on matters relating to competence and conduct of staff, which the Secretary of State could require the regulator to set; and also to impose a duty on the regulator to make a plan that sets out the descriptions of registered providers to be subject to regular inspections. These measures again meet the threshold of strengthening tenants' rights, and so, it again strengthens the case for consent to be granted. The Welsh Government disagrees, however, with the UK Government on whether consent is required for five of these clauses.

Of course, the legal considerations as to where exactly the line falls between reserved and devolved areas isn't always black and white. Increased devolution over the last 25 years has naturally increased some complexity. However, seeing as the Welsh Government recommends that consent be granted anyway, I think it's very important that we remember the people that this legislation is designed to help, and they are vulnerable tenants in need. For the sake of these people, we cannot have a situation where inter-governmental disagreements take precedence over practically implementing the framework that these social housing tenants need. So, we will be supporting this motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Well, following the contribution of John Griffiths, it will come as no surprise to any of you that I, and those of us on these benches, oppose this motion today and, in the process, will upset my new friend, Janet Finch-Saunders.

This Bill, like so many of the legislative consent memoranda that we've seen over the last 18 months, undermines our national legislature here, and, therefore, specifically undermines the policies of this Government and this Senedd in the area of housing policy, and it also fails to tackle the great challenges facing the social housing sector in Wales.

The purpose of devolution, as weak as it is, is to give us the power to set policy in specific areas here in Wales, such as health, education, the environment and housing. But if we give our consent to this memorandum today, then we will transfer a small part of our powers in the area of housing back to Westminster. This, of course, is entirely unacceptable.  

In addition, Westminster legislation that has been designed to meet the needs of England, such as in the area of housing, does not meet the challenges facing us here in Wales. We have different challenges here, and Wales must respond to these challenges with our own policy framework. If we are not able to solve the problems here with the limited powers that we have, then the solution is to demand more powers in order to tackle these challenges.  

One of the concerns that I have regarding this LCM is the fact that there is social housing in Wales that comes under the control of housing associations in England, which will be accountable to Westminster legislation instead of being accountable to Welsh legislation. The requirements and standards in Wales are higher than in England—and congratulations to the Welsh Government for ensuring that—but we must ensure that everyone here in Wales can expect those same standards. Enabling this LCM today means that some social housing in Wales will continue to meet different and lower standards. That should not happen, and we must have consistency in terms of our expectations here in Wales.

Finally, we should note that this is the fifth LCM that has been introduced for this Bill. On every single occasion, we've had very little opportunity to scrutinise and consult on the Bill and its impact on tenants who live in Wales. This, of course, is entirely inadequate. The fact that there have been five LCMs demonstrates how the proposed Bill has been changed and adjusted, and how the elected Members of Westminster, and indeed developments in housing in England, are able to influence the Bill, because it is their Bill. But we have almost no voice here. It will affect the daily lives of tenants who live in Wales—the people whom we represent—and yet, neither we nor them have any influence on it. The lack of time to scrutinise and understand the proposed legislation is entirely unacceptable. So, I therefore urge you to vote against this LCM today. Thank you.

The Minister to reply. Julie James. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I completely acknowledge the disappointment of Members at the lack of time to scrutinise these LCMs. As I said in my opening remarks, we are very disappointed that the UK Government has chosen to table late amendments in this way, and indeed, we know now, has chosen to table further amendments at Report Stage. So, I may need to lay another supplementary legislative consent memorandum, if required, to inform the debate.

I intend to write to the relevant UK Minister to express my dissatisfaction that the Report Stage is likely to go ahead without the Senedd being given the opportunity to consider the case for consent relating to the Bill in its entirety as a result of the late additions. The latest amendments relate to the professionalisation of the social housing workforce in England. We are in the process of analysing the amendment and will provide advice on whether a further SLCM is required as soon as possible, as well as any potential implications for the housing workforce in Wales.

Llywydd, I am very grateful indeed to the Chairs of the committees. I have tried to consider and have considered the various reports, and my apologies to them—we have tried very hard to get the LCMs to you in good time, but, as you know, we're defeated by the late laying of the amendments, and there's been little we can do about that. But, nevertheless, I apologise for that situation.

We will be working with the UK Government to make sure that we try to maximise the amount of scrutiny that the Senedd can give the Bill, but, nevertheless, I disagree with Mabon entirely because dissatisfaction with the process is not a reason to remove the improved regulation of the social landlords who do have properties in Wales from those tenants. That would be very much an own goal in my view. The fact that the process in entirely unsatisfactory does not mean that those tenants should be deprived of that additional protection.

I also disagree with Janet Finch-Saunders, and I think one of the other committee members also said it, that Schedule 5 doesn't require consent. We continue to say that Schedule 5 does require consent.

Nevertheless, despite this, Llywydd, I think there's a majority view in the Senedd that the LCM should be supported, and I would urge all Members to support the legislative consent motion in respect of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, and we will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.