Like others in the debate this afternoon, I'd like to pay my own tribute to Sir Wyn Williams upon his retirement. It was good to be able to have the conversation with him last week at the committee. I think sometimes it demonstrates the power of actually being present with somebody in the same room, because we've had conversations on different occasions with Sir Wyn that have always been on the screen, virtual conversations, but last week we were able to have that face-to-face conversation, and it was very useful, particularly as in many ways it was a valedictory hearing, where we were listening to his reflections on his time as president of Welsh Tribunals, and where we were able to have not so much a hearing, but a conversation with Sir Wyn. It's certainly something that I felt was very valuable. I'm sure other committee members who were there also found it valuable. It's important, I think, that we're able to have these conversations as we move forward to reform the system.

I was greatly cheered by the response of the Counsel General to my earlier intervention in his speech. I think it is important that we look towards how we can ensure the independence of tribunals—proper independence from Government and from this place—and ensure that we do have a conversation about how we want to take these matters forward. I very much agree with the point that's just been made by Rhys ab Owen about the need for an appeal tribunal, an appeal process to be put in place, which also I think will strengthen the work of the tribunals.

When I was reading Sir Wyn's report, I must admit my eyes were dragged straight to the final chapter, where he says he wanted to make a few reflections. I agree very much with what he said, thanking people who were retiring. As an education Minister, I remember the work of Rhiannon Walker, and I think it is important that we put on record here today thanks to her for her work in her retirement.

It's also important to look at what the experience is in Wales and how that experience can be put to work for the future. I was very taken by what he said about the impact of COVID and the way that's challenged ways of working, and I think in terms of delivery of justice, it is important that we look again at what COVID has questioned in terms of our assumptions about how these things are supposed to operate. I think it is important that we look at the work of the tribunals from the point of view of the individual they are serving and not from the point of view of people who administer or run the tribunals. I think Sir Wyn had a number of very interesting points to make about how the impact of COVID had affected and strengthened, perhaps, the voice of people who are coming to a tribunal.

It's also important that we look again at some of the structures. I agree with what's been said this afternoon about the devolution of justice. Certainly, we hear some speeches from my left in this Chamber—from my right politically—against the devolution of justice, as if we're looking at driving some sort of wedge between the countries of the United Kingdom, that we want to separate, in some ways the—[Interruption.] You should listen to what I'm about to say; you'd learn something. In terms of addressing how we work together, what Sir Wyn said—[Interruption.] You haven't read the report. What he said at committee was that the way in which the tribunals worked together and learned from each other in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales was important. It is important that we work together. It is important that we learn from each other. But we can only work together and learn from each other if we have the freedom to take decisions free of each other as well. That is the point that somebody who's got far more experience of these matters was saying to us. I would suggest that Members would listen to that voice of experience.

In welcoming Sir Gary Hickinbottom to the role in the next few weeks, he is inheriting a system that has been in very good health, that has been maintained as a consequence of the work of the retiring president. But he also, of course, is inheriting a quite formidable list of challenges. The reform that the Counsel General spoke about is important. Sir Wyn also spoke about the location and the structures of the judiciary and the way in which judicial members of the tribunal are able to work together. I think he made some very good points to the committee, and I would encourage the Counsel General to read the transcript of that committee in order to refresh his own views of these matters.

In closing, Presiding Officer, it is impossible to look at these matters and to debate this report without an overview of the structures of governance. It is impossible to find any senior member of the judiciary who believes that the current structure of governance of justice does Wales and does the people of Wales any good at all. The sooner it is reformed from top to bottom, and the sooner these matters are devolved to this country, the better for us all.